trippypea
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Post by trippypea on Aug 3, 2015 6:47:55 GMT -5
You can have two people working the same job, but one is a go-getter and the other a slacker. If I was the go-getter, I'd be ticked off if the slacker was making the same (or more) money than I was because what would be the point of doing any 'extra' if it didn't result in the reward of more pay? In this same situation, if the go-getter was making more money than than the slacker, without a doubt the slacker would be complaining. There are lots of people who give less effort than the next guy, but expect the same or better rewards (entitlement attitude), and those are most often the loudest people...
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Aug 3, 2015 11:35:17 GMT -5
My understanding is at many tech companies like Google, salary is the tip of the iceberg. Anyway IMO to make sure you're being paid fairly, don't worry about what your bosses or co-workers earn, instead interview around and see what kind of offers come in from outside. And share your results with your current employer, put the ball in their court. What's wrong with spending your time and effort where it's most valued? Put the companies with inequitable pay scales at a competitive disadvantage. I got my biggest bumps this way, you shouldn't do this too often, it's best to time your application to a high-paying competitor who is looking specifically in your area of expertise. That's when you want to start a bidding war. It's like if your co-worker paid too much for his car because he didn't shop around, but you got a great deal on the same model after pounding the pavement, I don't see the difference in what you paid as being unfair. That's what an open market is supposed to be good at-- to iron out these mis-pricings. I see no reason to have to justify my paycheck to anyone except the person who writes it. Like my mama told me, I think this is generally a good idea, but sometimes employers don't care how much other companies pay. I have a friend who was offered another job that paid 30% more than her now old job. She went to her employer (as she wanted to stay), and then never countered. She ended up leaving because they wouldn't even offer her any sort of increase. Although I find that situation better than making promises you won't keep, which I've seen happen a few times.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 11:39:31 GMT -5
You can have two people working the same job, but one is a go-getter and the other a slacker. If I was the go-getter, I'd be ticked off if the slacker was making the same (or more) money than I was because what would be the point of doing any 'extra' if it didn't result in the reward of more pay? My nephew was passed over for promotion in favor of a woman who refused business travel because she was a single mother. This was in an AUDITING position! My nephew ended up making the trips she refused to make. He got a lot of visibility and they were looking to find a way t promote him, but he ended up quitting for a better job elsewhere.
I think this is generally a good idea, but sometimes employers don't care how much other companies pay. I have a friend who was offered another job that paid 30% more than her now old job. She went to her employer (as she wanted to stay), and then never countered. She ended up leaving because they wouldn't even offer her any sort of increase. I've seen exceptional employees who were offered a promotion and/or a salary matching the offer, who stayed with the company for a long time after that- but yes, you do have to be prepared to walk if your current employer does nothing.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Aug 3, 2015 11:42:06 GMT -5
My understanding is at many tech companies like Google, salary is the tip of the iceberg. Anyway IMO to make sure you're being paid fairly, don't worry about what your bosses or co-workers earn, instead interview around and see what kind of offers come in from outside. And share your results with your current employer, put the ball in their court. What's wrong with spending your time and effort where it's most valued? Put the companies with inequitable pay scales at a competitive disadvantage. I got my biggest bumps this way, you shouldn't do this too often, it's best to time your application to a high-paying competitor who is looking specifically in your area of expertise. That's when you want to start a bidding war. It's like if your co-worker paid too much for his car because he didn't shop around, but you got a great deal on the same model after pounding the pavement, I don't see the difference in what you paid as being unfair. That's what an open market is supposed to be good at-- to iron out these mis-pricings. I see no reason to have to justify my paycheck to anyone except the person who writes it. Like my mama told me, I think this is generally a good idea, but sometimes employers don't care how much other companies pay. I have a friend who was offered another job that paid 30% more than her now old job. She went to her employer (as she wanted to stay), and then never countered. She ended up leaving because they wouldn't even offer her any sort of increase. Although I find that situation better than making promises you won't keep, which I've seen happen a few times. This is how it is at my company. The only way to get paid more is to leave and come back (if you're lucky). It's really unfortunate and does not seem to be smart to sell low and buy back high. I've discussed it with leaders and managers in the past, and they insist that once an employee starts looking, one foot is already out the door. Wish them well and don't negotiate.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 11:45:11 GMT -5
A former coworker once confided to me that she found out that a guy in her department- same general credentials, same work responsibilities- was making $20K more than she was. (Someone from HR accidentally sent her something that wasn't intended for her eyes.) The guy had left the company prior to a merger, gone to a consulting firm, came back to our company, got moved to the London office, hated it, got moved back to pretty much what he was doing before the merger. Totally unfair. She still hasn't made any noise about it because she doesn't want to get the HR person in trouble.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Aug 3, 2015 12:14:02 GMT -5
Yes, but skilled people can negotiate more. That is the problem with unions. My son is going to be an Electrician. We discussed going the Union route or not. Yeah, it is kind of a guaranteed job. And, yes, the pay is good on one hand. On the other hand, maybe he wants to do more. Maybe he wants to start his own business and company. He could make more. And, he could also make less. But, I think I would rather determine my own destiny and so does he. I think he should network with some electricians before he makes a decision. May dad was a Union Electrician. I now work for a company that Contracts both Union and Non-union companies. I don't think we deal with a non-union Electrical (or Plumbing or HVAC) company. For the trades, Unions just work. There may be some drawbacks but also benefits. This is a situation were the Union may benefit your son. Don't let your bias work to his disadvantage.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Aug 3, 2015 12:22:12 GMT -5
Yes, but skilled people can negotiate more. That is the problem with unions. My son is going to be an Electrician. We discussed going the Union route or not. Yeah, it is kind of a guaranteed job. And, yes, the pay is good on one hand. On the other hand, maybe he wants to do more. Maybe he wants to start his own business and company. He could make more. And, he could also make less. But, I think I would rather determine my own destiny and so does he. I think being part of a single employer union and a multi employer union (like many trades are) are different. I think the multi-employer unions would definitely benefit your son. Being part of the union is like having a certificate that you can do the work. The unions have good training and apprentice programs and when you get through them the assumption is that you really know what you are doing. Also, many employers keep a stable of their best union workers on payroll at all times, rather then laying them off when the work gets slow. Our regulars even get bonuses. Unions are certainly not perfect, but I think it makes sense to join the union early in your career. You can always leave the union, or work both union and non union work, or start your own business.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Aug 3, 2015 12:37:39 GMT -5
Transparency is coming whether employers want it or not. Here's a story by GlassDoor.com, where you can post reviews of employers and also post your salary.
www.glassdoor.com/blog/tech-salaries-glassdoor-diversity-hiring-survey/
This covered women vs. men in some of the big tech companies. It's hard to conclude much since (sadly) many positions include few women and some differences can be explained by time in position, but there are some interesting comparisons.
A couple of recruiters in my field (actuarial) conduct salary surveys- not by sex, but at least you knew where you stood compared to others with similar experience and exams passed. I'm sure recruiters in other fields do as well.
It's a step in the right direction. IMO, women tend to get less because (generally) they don't negotiate as often and they don't move as often. Sadly, companies want to pay you as little as they can but still keep you. I'm against pay parity laws. There are so many intangibles such as who's got "boardroom presence", who can close a deal with a potential client, who's willing to travel, who's always up to learn something new, etc. No law is going to be able to deal with differences due to these very real factors. And studies show that when they do negotiate - they get less than men who negotiate, and also develop a reputation for being difficult, bitchy, whatever. Women also typically get offered less than the males, and any negotiating produces less of an increase. This is one of the reasons I think it's critical for all women to negotiate their salary even if they are happy with the initial offer. I think if employers expect women to negotiate then the perceptions of women who do of being difficulty or bitchy will slowly dissipate.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Aug 3, 2015 14:51:34 GMT -5
Those of you who think not talking about salaries inside a company should read the background on the Fair Pay (Liliy Ledbetter) Act. That sh*t would not have happened if people were open about salaries. This whole "we don't talk about salaries" is good only for the companies and those that are unfairly (not talking about superstar v. average here, but rather about comparable performance) paid more than others.
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❤ mollymouser ❤
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on Aug 3, 2015 18:03:45 GMT -5
My co-workers all know I work for free ... which is why I get to leave early when I want to, and I completely get out of scooping cat boxes at work
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 3, 2015 19:34:36 GMT -5
A former coworker once confided to me that she found out that a guy in her department- same general credentials, same work responsibilities- was making $20K more than she was. (Someone from HR accidentally sent her something that wasn't intended for her eyes.) The guy had left the company prior to a merger, gone to a consulting firm, came back to our company, got moved to the London office, hated it, got moved back to pretty much what he was doing before the merger. Totally unfair. She still hasn't made any noise about it because she doesn't want to get the HR person in trouble. She can deal with this at her next review. She doesn't have to mention where she saw it.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Aug 3, 2015 21:52:18 GMT -5
A former coworker once confided to me that she found out that a guy in her department- same general credentials, same work responsibilities- was making $20K more than she was. (Someone from HR accidentally sent her something that wasn't intended for her eyes.) The guy had left the company prior to a merger, gone to a consulting firm, came back to our company, got moved to the London office, hated it, got moved back to pretty much what he was doing before the merger. Totally unfair. She still hasn't made any noise about it because she doesn't want to get the HR person in trouble. She can deal with this at her next review. She doesn't have to mention where she saw it. But how do your bring up that subject without any sort of proof? The employer can just deny that the other employee is paid more.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 3, 2015 21:58:00 GMT -5
I wouldn't say I know so and so is paid more than me. I'd say I was worth X based on what I know others are being paid.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 8:04:00 GMT -5
Those of you who think not talking about salaries inside a company should read the background on the Fair Pay (Liliy Ledbetter) Act. That sh*t would not have happened if people were open about salaries. This whole "we don't talk about salaries" is good only for the companies and those that are unfairly (not talking about superstar v. average here, but rather about comparable performance) paid more than others. I totally agree. Years ago (1980s) I interviewed at another company and one guy I interviewed with told me that his wife, who was in a professional position at another very large company, was called into her manager's office and given a large check and a raise. They'd just settled an EEOC complaint against them for systematically paying women less than men in comparable positions. Secrecy would definitely have prevented that.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Aug 4, 2015 10:03:03 GMT -5
At our firm... they tell us not to discuss salaries/bonuses/raises etc.
I have no idea what anyone else makes. I can see ranges at Glassdoor.com.
and even though I might be protected to be able to talk about these things, I also signed a paper when I started working here saying basically that I can be terminated at any time and they are under no obligation to offer up a reason.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Aug 4, 2015 10:08:26 GMT -5
At our firm... they tell us not to discuss salaries/bonuses/raises etc. I have no idea what anyone else makes. I can see ranges at Glassdoor.com. and even though I might be protected to be able to talk about these things, I also signed a paper when I started working here saying basically that I can be terminated at any time and they are under no obligation to offer up a reason. I work in an at-will state. While we have no official policy that we should not be discussing wages, it's definitely implied. The fact that my boss doesn't even know what I am paid communicates that it's suppose to be a secret. I also think it probably wouldn't matter in my current workplace. I suspect our CEO's attitude that one person was being paid more than another would be so what?
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Aug 4, 2015 10:13:27 GMT -5
At our firm... they tell us not to discuss salaries/bonuses/raises etc. I have no idea what anyone else makes. I can see ranges at Glassdoor.com. and even though I might be protected to be able to talk about these things, I also signed a paper when I started working here saying basically that I can be terminated at any time and they are under no obligation to offer up a reason. same here. Although I oversee payroll, so I know what most people make. I remember when I first started as the controller the CFO told me at the time that, professionally, I needed to be able to see what other people made, often more than me, and be ok with it. I still use that advice.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Aug 4, 2015 10:16:08 GMT -5
At our firm... they tell us not to discuss salaries/bonuses/raises etc. I have no idea what anyone else makes. I can see ranges at Glassdoor.com. and even though I might be protected to be able to talk about these things, I also signed a paper when I started working here saying basically that I can be terminated at any time and they are under no obligation to offer up a reason. same here. Although I oversee payroll, so I know what most people make. I remember when I first started as the controller the CFO told me at the time that, professionally, I needed to be able to see what other people made, often more than me, and be ok with it. I still use that advice. This. I know what everyone else makes since I work with P/R and if I let it get to me I'd drive myself insane.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Aug 4, 2015 10:43:33 GMT -5
About 15 yrs ago a co-worker accidentally left her W-2 sitting by the copier. I saw that she was making 25K a year more than me . We did the same job but she was about 18 yrs older than me and had been with the company for 10 yrs. I was around 27 yrs old at the time and had absolutely no idea how to address this situation. I was torn because I knew she had a lot more experience and had been with the company a lot longer but I still felt cheated because I did the same job and honestly I was a lot more efficient. It took her twice as long as me to do the same amount of work. I ended up letting it go because I was young and dumb.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 4, 2015 12:56:25 GMT -5
The government pay system isn't perfect. But one nice thing about it is that it treats everyone the same and is transparent.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Aug 4, 2015 16:02:07 GMT -5
To me the worst is when you are looking for a job and there is absolutely no salary information available. It will say something stupid like "open." Every idiot on the planet knows the company has a range in mind. I wish they would just freaking say what it is so people don't waste their time.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Aug 4, 2015 16:34:15 GMT -5
To me the worst is when you are looking for a job and there is absolutely no salary information available. It will say something stupid like "open." Every idiot on the planet knows the company has a range in mind. I wish they would just freaking say what it is so people don't waste their time. I find that when a company says "open" that they often don't pay a competitive salary for the position. Some places do, but I've found most do not. However, as much as I dislike the term "open" I dislike providing a salary history more. Because what I've been paid in the past has no relevance on the salary I expect in the future. Especially, when there is no ability to indicate perks and non-salary benefits that may have compensated for a lower salary.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 4, 2015 18:07:48 GMT -5
I was actually a little afraid to share my prior salary during this interview process, knowing I was changing gears in what my job function would be. I had always figured that QA positions earned less than engineers, because it seemed like the qualification requirements were lighter. boy was I wrong! I ended up with an over 10% salary bump coming to this new company.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 4, 2015 20:11:45 GMT -5
While I do think employers should be more transparent, I don't think it entirely misses the mark to say that disclosing salary causes drama, hate, and disconcent.
Even for an honest hiring manager, determining pay isn't an exact science. How do you take into account differences in experience and longevity? Some people can have the same job title but different roles, or have more work than another, or any number of different factors. The full disclosure of all salaries can lead to some hate and mistrust, as we've seen here.
I think the ideal solution is a system kind of like the government, setting "pay bands" for each position based on market factors, then setting someone's salary in that pay band and moving them up the pay band as their performance and experience warrant.
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