djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 16, 2015 12:05:44 GMT -5
to use your logic, why is she having unprotected sex? if the reason is the fact that she wants kids, this sounds like a gotcha pregnancy to me. not exactly honorable. Same question applies to him, and the reason is usually that they are both stupid. right- but that doesn't leave them BOTH on the hook, according to you. only him. why?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 16, 2015 12:07:37 GMT -5
That's bull****. Most men take care of their children because they want to. I am not saying it is the sole problem of the man, but many men have had problems because of an unwanted pregnancy and responded with nothing but love and support for the woman and the children. To say it has "always" taken a shotgun or legislation is wrong and nowhere even close to the truth. Sorry, I in no way was even thinking of the men who step up when a pregnancy happens. In my mind none of this conversation has anything to do with either the men or women that step up when pregnancy happens. I am specifically talking about the men that want to walk away. They have been able to without having to do anything else. Whereas a woman has never been able to just walk away and has had to deal with the social stigma even if she wanted to just walk away. she can abort. is that not walking away? and if not, what do you mean?
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 16, 2015 12:07:38 GMT -5
Not at all. I have said all along that they are both responsible. Fairness entails KEEPING them both responsible. your position belies what you "say", then, imo. you give unequal choices in situations where they are merited AND where they are not. I give equal responsibilities whether they are desired or not. Very different.
Anyway, I am out for the day. Until later.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 16, 2015 12:08:19 GMT -5
I'm fine with fathers having an opt out of responsibilities and rights at the fetal stage. I am also ok with society paying more in child support to help ensure this right. As we do to ensure many rights when it comes to privacy, reproduction and raising children. then we have no disagreement.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 16, 2015 12:09:32 GMT -5
Same question applies to him, and the reason is usually that they are both stupid. right- but that doesn't leave them BOTH on the hook, according to you. only him. why? Okay, one more....
He can NEVER be on the hook unless she is already. How you get "only him" out of that is beyond me.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 16, 2015 12:10:12 GMT -5
your position belies what you "say", then, imo. you give unequal choices in situations where they are merited AND where they are not. I give equal responsibilities whether they are desired or not. Very different.
Anyway, I am out for the day. Until later.
i give equal IRRESPONSIBILITIES whether they are desired or not.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 16, 2015 12:11:29 GMT -5
right- but that doesn't leave them BOTH on the hook, according to you. only him. why? Okay, one more....
He can NEVER be on the hook unless she is already. How you get "only him" out of that is beyond me.
you have made it her choice as to whether or not he has responsibility, effectively. that ONLY applies to him. he has NO SAY in what SHE does. that is how. that is what your position amounts to, whether you see it or NOT.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 13:18:41 GMT -5
Sorry, I in no way was even thinking of the men who step up when a pregnancy happens. In my mind none of this conversation has anything to do with either the men or women that step up when pregnancy happens. I am specifically talking about the men that want to walk away. They have been able to without having to do anything else. Whereas a woman has never been able to just walk away and has had to deal with the social stigma even if she wanted to just walk away. she can abort. is that not walking away? and if not, what do you mean? Having an abortion is surgery, it's really quite a big deal. In no sense is having to endure an abortion getting to "walk away" from the pregnancy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 13:26:35 GMT -5
That is what should be being discussed because that is the comparable right.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 16, 2015 13:30:46 GMT -5
That would be true, if the other side didn't already have the ability to unilaterally walk away without consequences. I agree giving only one side that right while denying it to the other is fundamentally inequitable. The "other side" cannot unilaterally walk away without consequences. She has undergone physical changes that cannot be remedied. He has undergone no such changes.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 14:30:27 GMT -5
Maybe one day science will make it possible to split a fetus in two and surgically put one half in the male. On that day we will truly have equality between the sexes.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 16, 2015 15:24:44 GMT -5
she can abort. is that not walking away? and if not, what do you mean? Having an abortion is surgery, it's really quite a big deal. In no sense is having to endure an abortion getting to "walk away" from the pregnancy. i wasn't belittling it. aren't there non-surgical abortions? i thought there were.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 16, 2015 15:26:18 GMT -5
That is what should be being discussed because that is the comparable right. but not single parenthood? why not?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 16:08:13 GMT -5
That is what should be being discussed because that is the comparable right. but not single parenthood? why not? I have no idea what you mean by this.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 16, 2015 16:26:31 GMT -5
but not single parenthood? why not? I have no idea what you mean by this. the couple has equal rights to single parenthood OR adoption.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 17:57:09 GMT -5
LOL... My "equations" were the correct ones for this discussion. Yours are... I don't know what they are? Abortion rights centered? maybe? Which has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about. How many times does it need to be said? The choice to abort or not resides with the Mother. The choice to adopt out or not resides with the mother. NO one in this argument is trying to change that. The choice to abort or not resides with the Mother. The choice to adopt out or not resides with the mother. NO one in this argument is trying to change that. The choice to abort or not resides with the Mother. The choice to adopt out or not resides with the mother. NO one in this argument is trying to change that. The choice to abort or not resides with the Mother. The choice to adopt out or not resides with the mother. NO one in this argument is trying to change that. The choice to abort or not resides with the Mother. The choice to adopt out or not resides with the mother. NO one in this argument is trying to change that. (I figured, maybe if I repeat it a few time it might help...) Just a note for future reference:
An attempt to be condescending only works if you are actually IN the higher position.
Two things: 1> I wasn't being condescending. I was trying to get the point to sink in. 2> I actually AM "in the higher position" ("equality for all, when and where possible", IS the "highest position") in this debate... so even if it was condescension (it wasn't, but let's pretend)... it would have worked.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 18:02:16 GMT -5
Or allowing them both the option to "opt out". Unless you are advocating the removal of the rights of women to abort or adopt out... is that what you are suggesting? I mean that's the only way to "keep them both responsible". the case of adoption has not really been discussed, here- but if you consider it for a moment, you will realize that once the baby is conceived, men and women do, indeed, have equal choice. Actually they don't. In the case of adoption, the mother CAN adopt out the child over the wishes of the father. Then the father can petition to get his kid (if he wants to), but that petition is not guaranteed to result in him getting the kid.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 16, 2015 18:20:48 GMT -5
Okay, one more....
He can NEVER be on the hook unless she is already. How you get "only him" out of that is beyond me.
you have made it her choice as to whether or not he has responsibility, effectively. that ONLY applies to him. he has NO SAY in what SHE does. that is how. that is what your position amounts to, whether you see it or NOT. Is there any disagreement that both are responsible for creating the pregnancy? I don't think so. I think everyone has stipulated that. No problem.
Because she is the one carrying the fetus, she has the right to decide what happens to it. Again, I think everyone here has stipulated that.
She has the right to make a decision which removes financial responsibility for the child from BOTH parties, since there would then be no child born.
Absent that particular decision (or the equivalent one to give the child away for adoption) the responsibility REMAINS with both parties. She can in no way force him to be responsible for something that she is not also even more responsible for. She is not MAKING him responsible. He is ALREADY equally responsible. Her choice to carry to term does nothing other than to maintain the status quo, which is something he is again already responsible for.
He may certainly hope and prefer her to abort, since that decision will remove his responsibility, but he has no right to demand it. Nor does he have a right to unilaterally end that responsibility.
You said that it is her choice whether he has responsibility. Not true. It IS her choice whether that responsibility is subsequently voided, but it already exists. Her decision not to abort or adopt out does not create his responsibility. He created his own responsibility.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 18:21:00 GMT -5
I have no idea what you mean by this. the couple has equal rights to single parenthood OR adoption. Okay. I didn't know anyone was trying to deny fathers the right to single parenthood.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 16, 2015 18:26:35 GMT -5
I think to summarize Dark's argument: privilege necessitates responsibility and responsibility affords privilege. There are two privileges at play: the privilege to have sexual intercourse and the privilege to determine whether a conceived child lives or dies. There are also two responsibilities at play: the responsibility to carry the child to term and the father's responsibility to pay child support. As a society, we have said that the responsibility to raise the child may be abdicated, and the life/death decision privilege rests with the mother as a result of her responsibility to carry the child to term. Hence we must conclude that the responsibility to raise the child does not follow from the privilege of having sexual intercourse. A father's responsibility to pay child support follows from his responsibility to raise the child. But as we have already determined that the responsibility to raise the child does not follow from the privilege of having sexual intercourse, a clause is needed to ensure the father is not beholden to responsibilities originating from the mother's life/death decision. The decision is hers alone and hence all responsibilities resulting therefrom are hers alone. Thus we must grant the father the privilege of opting out of child support. In this way, responsibility follows equitably from privilege. Personally I think anyone who can read this thread and leave without being utterly dedicated to practicing abstinence outside of marriage needs their head checked. But in light of the mess of death and gender warfare that society has opted for instead, Dark is championing the more equitable alternative. not quite. the issue is not the "father's responsibility to pay child support", it is the "parent's ability to opt out". EITHER parent or BOTH parents can do that. legally. logically. and morally. They're equivalent issues. The father has the ability to opt out if and only if paying child support isn't his legal responsibility. Morally, we're off the reservation. Opting out of paying child support is tantamount to abandoning the child as far as I'm concerned, and if the mother aborts because of the father's decision to opt out, he's just as culpable as she is. Forcing the father to pay in spite of his lack of input is actually the lesser of two evils in my world. But if we throw the well-being of the child into the crapper (which everybody evidently has for this debate) I agree that yours is the more logically and morally sound position. It's nice to see you directing your patented rapid-fire wall of DJ attacks at Tall rather than me for a change, though.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 16, 2015 18:33:59 GMT -5
not quite. the issue is not the "father's responsibility to pay child support", it is the "parent's ability to opt out". EITHER parent or BOTH parents can do that. legally. logically. and morally. They're equivalent issues. The father has the ability to opt out if and only if paying child support isn't his legal responsibility. Morally, we're off the reservation. Opting out of paying child support is tantamount to abandoning the child as far as I'm concerned, and if the mother aborts because of the father's decision to opt out, he's just as culpable as she is. Forcing the father to pay in spite of his lack of input is actually the lesser of two evils in my world. But if we throw the well-being of the child into the crapper (which everybody evidently has for this debate) I agree that yours is the more logically and morally sound position. It's nice to see you directing your patented rapid-fire wall of DJ attacks at Tall rather than me for a change, though. i don't attack people, Virgil. i am questioning him in earnest, just as i do with you.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 16, 2015 18:34:50 GMT -5
the couple has equal rights to single parenthood OR adoption. Okay. I didn't know anyone was trying to deny fathers the right to single parenthood. except if the mother doesn't want to carry the baby to term, right?
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 16, 2015 18:37:13 GMT -5
you have made it her choice as to whether or not he has responsibility, effectively. that ONLY applies to him. he has NO SAY in what SHE does. that is how. that is what your position amounts to, whether you see it or NOT. Is there any disagreement that both are responsible for creating the pregnancy? I don't think so. I think everyone has stipulated that. No problem.
Because she is the one carrying the fetus, she has the right to decide what happens to it. Again, I think everyone here has stipulated that.
She has the right to make a decision which removes financial responsibility for the child from BOTH parties, since there would then be no child born.
Absent that particular decision (or the equivalent one to give the child away for adoption) the responsibility REMAINS with both parties. .
but that is not the case i was talking about. the case i was talking about was: man never suggests he wants a child, and man asserts that position when asked DURING pregnancy. in THAT circumstance, you believe that the man has no right to abdicate parental responsibility for the child, correct?
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 16, 2015 18:39:41 GMT -5
She is not MAKING him responsible. He is ALREADY equally responsible. Her choice to carry to term does nothing other than to maintain the status quo, which is something he is again already responsible for.. this is where we disagree. if the man abdicates responsibility for a child he never wanted, and the woman carries the pregnancy to term IN SPITE OF THAT, that is on her, imo. she has the option of aborting, not him. it is HER CHOICE to keep the child, not his, and with that CHOICE comes the consequences. that is how CHOICES work. as long as we understand each other here, i am comfortable with the disagreement. do we?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 18:43:14 GMT -5
Okay. I didn't know anyone was trying to deny fathers the right to single parenthood. except if the mother doesn't want to carry the baby to term, right? LOL see, here you go attaching a women's right to choice as some kind of bargaining chip. It isn't. A women exercising her rights does not do anything to a man. It is a biological fact that men need to find a woman willing to act as an incubator for him if he wants to reproduce. No woman has be that incubator to accommodate him if she doesn't want to. This is not relevant to what a father's responsibilities may or may not be to his children.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 16, 2015 18:44:13 GMT -5
He may certainly hope and prefer her to abort, since that decision will remove his responsibility, but he has no right to demand it. Nor does he have a right to unilaterally end that responsibility. red herring. i never suggested he had the right to demand it. nor does he have the right to demand that she NOT terminate. that is the RIGHT of the woman in this situation- but it is also HER CHOICE.
You said that it is her choice whether he has responsibility. Not true.
no, that is absolutely correct. she can absolve him of responsibility by aborting, by single parenting, or by putting the child up for adoption (according to Richard). therefore, she can CHOOSE to absolve him of all responsibility.
It IS her choice whether that responsibility is subsequently voided, but it already exists. Her decision not to abort or adopt out does not create his responsibility. He created his own responsibility.
you are claiming that the word choice is meaningless, essentially. good luck with that.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 16, 2015 18:45:10 GMT -5
except if the mother doesn't want to carry the baby to term, right? LOL see, here you go attacking i was just asking a simple question, for clarification. for you to frame that as "attacking" is not playing fair, later. do better, or have your posts ignored. your choice.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 16, 2015 18:48:04 GMT -5
It is a biological fact that men need to find a woman willing to act as an incubator for him if he wants to reproduce. No woman has be that incubator to accommodate him if she doesn't want to. This is not relevant to what a father's responsibilities may or may not be to his children. this is all a red herring argument, which i have already repeatedly conceded. gestation rights belong to the woman. so, stop pretending like i am some ignorant misogynistic Handmaid's Tale arse that doesn't get that, ok? i am NOT that guy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 18:50:42 GMT -5
LOL see, here you go attacking i was just asking a simple question, for clarification. for you to frame that as "attacking" is not playing fair, later. do better, or have your posts ignored. your choice. I actually meant to write attaching in that sentence. I edited it. However, it is not a simple question. Whatever arguments you have for being able to abdicate parental responsibility, a women's right to choice is not one of them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 18:51:39 GMT -5
It is a biological fact that men need to find a woman willing to act as an incubator for him if he wants to reproduce. No woman has be that incubator to accommodate him if she doesn't want to. This is not relevant to what a father's responsibilities may or may not be to his children. this is all a red herring argument, which i have already repeatedly conceded. gestation rights belong to the woman. so, stop pretending like i am some ignorant misogynistic Handmaid's Tale arse that doesn't get that, ok? i am NOT that guy. Then why do you keep using it in your argument?
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