djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 13, 2015 11:10:36 GMT -5
There is also merit to what tall guy is saying there. I don't find this one easy to black and white... not really. theft is a criminal act. consensual sex is not.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 13, 2015 11:12:12 GMT -5
If you're living with someone you don't know well enough to trust, you probably deserve what you get. Just sayin'.... living?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 18:45:31 GMT -5
Not in the timeframe we are suggesting. In the time frame we are suggesting, it's a fetus with no rights. And there is no right to two parents. nor even a right to support from two parents. You keep forgetting that. if there is not an abortion, the fetus becomes a child you keep ignoring that. I am not concerned with the child. I'm not ignoring it. It's irrelevant... mostly because your statement of "a child has the right to support from both parents" is patently false.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 13, 2015 19:30:57 GMT -5
Take responsibility for your own preventive measures, or deal with the results. Everyone's got that choice.
Bottom line for me is, "If you don't want to pay, don't go play."
The analogy would be that you can make dinner at home if you can't afford a restaurant. But if you do go out, you don't do a "dine-and-dash." You get prosecuted for that.
are you advocating abstinence, tall? because if not, pregnancy is not 100% avoidable by ANY method of BC short of sterilization. I'm advocating whatever works for someone to avoid a pregnancy that they don't want any part of. Abstinence is certainly the most sure way, but at the very least use a condom. They could also withdraw even with that on to be safer. And if they are really that sure, then go ahead and get snipped. But if you're going to take the risk, be ready to pay the cost.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 13, 2015 19:37:53 GMT -5
are you advocating abstinence, tall? because if not, pregnancy is not 100% avoidable by ANY method of BC short of sterilization. I'm advocating whatever works for someone to avoid a pregnancy that they don't want any part of. Abstinence is certainly the most sure way, but at the very least use a condom. They could also withdraw even with that on to be safer. And if they are really that sure, then go ahead and get snipped. But if you're going to take the risk, be ready to pay the cost. have you ever been in a relationship where birth control was used, and failed?
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 13, 2015 19:58:43 GMT -5
No, but I was in one many years ago where there was a claim of pregnancy, along with a later claim that it was ectopic and ultimately lost. I was not using my own BC, but should have been, and I doubt her claims that she was and it failed. I have every reason to believe it was an attempted "gotcha."
It could have been an attempted "fake gotcha."
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 13, 2015 21:50:56 GMT -5
Don't know where you got that. Solidly pro-choice. Always have been. But that is still much more the woman's choice than it could ever be the man's. Yes, it would be nice if she at least discussed it with him....
Point remains, if he doesn't protect himself why should he expect to be let off the hook? It's his responsibility too. She didn't get pregnant without him.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Aug 13, 2015 22:00:05 GMT -5
The video bashes feminists because in America, "women have it so good, and there's no wage gap. Feminists should just shut up and stop whining." Well, what it fails to mention is that it only applies to single, childless women, not married women with children. Why is it that married men with children don't suffer a wage gap? Why is it that as soon as a woman gets pregnant, it all goes downhill from there? No paid maternity leave. No guarantee that her job will still be waiting for her after she gives birth. No government-subsidized daycare so she can go back to work. American women have it so good, my azz! There's still a lot of work to be done, but we should just shut up and settle for crumbs. Well, honestly, a lot of that is due to American women choosing to have children with men who are either unwilling or unable to do their fair share of housework and child rearing. Someone who is responsible for the lion's share of the work involved in running a household with small children is going to have different energy levels at work and make different career choices than someone who doesn't have much responsibility at home.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Aug 13, 2015 22:09:49 GMT -5
Number of people who can and would do the job is my guess, but that's only a guess because daycare wasn't cheap when my kids were in it. No PI, it is because child care is a "woman's field". Bullshyt. Nurses used to make diddlysquat. But once women had more opportunities, there was a shortage of nurses, and the salaries skyrocketed. Pharmacists, physical therapists, and medical sonographers all make decent money and are overwhelmingly female. Child care doesn't pay badly because it is a woman's field. Childcare pays badly because it isn't that hard to find people who are willing and able to do the job. Your pay and working conditions aren't a function of how worthy you are. They are a function of how easy you are to replace.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 22:36:17 GMT -5
Don't know where you got that. Solidly pro-choice. Always have been. But that is still much more the woman's choice than it could ever be the man's. Yes, it would be nice if she at least discussed it with him....
Point remains, if he doesn't protect himself why should he expect to be let off the hook? It's his responsibility too. She didn't get pregnant without him. Bu that ignores the reciprocal point: If she doesn't protect herself why should she expect to be let off the hook? He didn't cause the pregnancy alone. As long as she has the right to "opt out", he should have the same right.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 13, 2015 22:52:20 GMT -5
Don't know where you got that. Solidly pro-choice. Always have been. But that is still much more the woman's choice than it could ever be the man's. Yes, it would be nice if she at least discussed it with him....
Point remains, if he doesn't protect himself why should he expect to be let off the hook? It's his responsibility too. She didn't get pregnant without him. Bu that ignores the reciprocal point: If she doesn't protect herself why should she expect to be let off the hook? He didn't cause the pregnancy alone. As long as she has the right to "opt out", he should have the same right. Neither caused the pregnancy alone; however, she will not be "let off the hook" no matter what action is taken. Her body is permanently changed. If she aborts, there will be discomfort and, possibly, emotional trauma. If she carries to term and adopts, there will be even more discomfort (read that as pain) and emotional trauma. If she decides to raise the child, there will be high-level responsibility for the child's well-being. He, on the other hand can, indeed, walk away unscathed. There is no equality there and none can be created. The physical side of pregnancy is the woman's to bear, no matter what. The only one of the two who can actually be "let off the hook" is the male.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 13, 2015 23:25:30 GMT -5
Exactly right, along with a couple other things not mentioned such as damage that could make it impossible to have children later. It is not equal. It will never be equal. It CANNOT be equal. Your attempts to make it so (along with a couple other posters) are silly.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 14, 2015 1:48:49 GMT -5
Exactly right, along with a couple other things not mentioned such as damage that could make it impossible to have children later. It is not equal. It will never be equal. It CANNOT be equal. Your attempts to make it so (along with a couple other posters) are silly. Sometimes, I find myself wondering what happened to simple logic. There seems to be a concerted effort to either avoid it, or try to find a way around it. What is, is. Logic.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 14, 2015 2:02:32 GMT -5
Oftentimes, the problem is with the starting point. Do you start at the beginning and see where the logic takes you? Or do you start at the end and then try to justify that end? I guess the latter can sometimes work for people, as long as they can somehow ignore the tortured screams of that logic as it gets twisted beyond all recognition.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 14, 2015 3:30:50 GMT -5
It can't be totally equal, but it can be more equal. Isn't that what the equality movement is all about? Or does that only apply when it comes to giving women choice and opportunity? More equal than what? More equal than one party taking all the damage while the other walks free? Is that more equal? Frankly, I'd feel the same way if it were the guy taking all the damage while the gal walked free. As I see it, both have a choice in the beginning. Once the choice is made, both take a chance. If those dice roll the wrong combination, one will take a good deal more damage, and there isn't any way around that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 7:01:07 GMT -5
Removing the option for abortion is not about financial responsibility.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 8:25:45 GMT -5
A woman's right to choice about her own body does not have to be negotiated by giving men something. It is an inherent right and men don't have to be compensated for the fact that they are not the ones who end up being the incubators and hence don't have that choice.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 14, 2015 14:48:08 GMT -5
Never said it did, just want all the "you did the crime you do the time" "should have thought of that before you had sex" and whatnot people to really think about the double standard they're repeating ad nauseam. None of them would say that to a woman who was seeking an abortion. One of them even said that a woman deliberately poking holes in the guy's condom is the guy's fault. I mean... what the fuck? If I go into the next rape or domestic abuse thread and told the woman "if you hang out with people you can't trust what do you expect" you guys would all jump my shit. The double standard is strong in here, and I find it weird that none of you want to admit it. And, what you need to really think about is the fact that a double standard exists no matter what you do once the deed is done. The woman is the one who takes the damage. The only one who can walk away clean is the male. How do you equalize that? You can't.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 19:42:23 GMT -5
Exactly right, along with a couple other things not mentioned such as damage that could make it impossible to have children later. It is not equal. It will never be equal. It CANNOT be equal. Your attempts to make it so (along with a couple other posters) are silly. Sometimes, I find myself wondering what happened to simple logic. There seems to be a concerted effort to either avoid it, or try to find a way around it. What is, is. Logic. I agree with you there. Many DO try to avoid it. Logically speaking: She can make a choice to not be a parent via support and/or actual custody. In a society where equality is the goal, logic demands that he be afforded the same choice. I do agree that it can never be truly equal. Equal would give him the right to demand her carry to term... something I am most definitely NOT proposing. Equal would give him the right to demand her to abort... something else I am most definitely NOT proposing.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 19:52:31 GMT -5
A woman's right to choice about her own body does not have to be negotiated by giving men something. It is an inherent right and men don't have to be compensated for the fact that they are not the ones who end up being the incubators and hence don't have that choice. I wholeheartedly agree with this. That's why I don't argue against it. What I argue against is her choice forcing financial obligation on him. She can abort it or carry it to term... completely and utterly her choice. She should not be able to force him to financially support the child however, since she has a choice in whether or not she will (if she keeps it and chooses putting the child up for adoption, she's just as off the hook for the next 18 years of responsibility as she would be if she chose to abort). The only tie-in I have with abortion is that he has to decide by the legally mandated deadline. That way if she chooses to abort she still can. Keeping ALL the choices still in her court.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 19:54:44 GMT -5
Never said it did, just want all the "you did the crime you do the time" "should have thought of that before you had sex" and whatnot people to really think about the double standard they're repeating ad nauseam. None of them would say that to a woman who was seeking an abortion. One of them even said that a woman deliberately poking holes in the guy's condom is the guy's fault. I mean... what the fuck? If I go into the next rape or domestic abuse thread and told the woman "if you hang out with people you can't trust what do you expect" you guys would all jump my shit. The double standard is strong in here, and I find it weird that none of you want to admit it. 1. The idea of women poking holes in condemns even coming up in this conversation is ridiculous. The incidence of that is minute. 2. A man needs to think ahead because having an abortion is not a decision he can make. It is not his body hosting the fetus. He has control of his body which in this case means his sperm. That is the equality of this situation, both parties have control of their own bodies.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 14, 2015 19:55:13 GMT -5
No, he didn't say that. I should know.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 19:55:16 GMT -5
Never said it did, just want all the "you did the crime you do the time" "should have thought of that before you had sex" and whatnot people to really think about the double standard they're repeating ad nauseam. None of them would say that to a woman who was seeking an abortion. One of them even said that a woman deliberately poking holes in the guy's condom is the guy's fault. I mean... what the fuck? If I go into the next rape or domestic abuse thread and told the woman "if you hang out with people you can't trust what do you expect" you guys would all jump my shit. The double standard is strong in here, and I find it weird that none of you want to admit it. And, what you need to really think about is the fact that a double standard exists no matter what you do once the deed is done. The woman is the one who takes the damage. The only one who can walk away clean is the male. How do you equalize that? You can't. Which is why we all agree that she should get MORE options than the male. She shouldn't get ALL options... just MORE.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 19:58:34 GMT -5
No, he didn't say that. I should know. It may not have been said verbatim... but it was strongly implied by someone (not going to look for who) with the (paraphrased) "why does she have access to them?" question
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 20:01:19 GMT -5
As hickle said a long time ago, child support is about the child. No one else can sign the child's rights away. The options the mother had while she was pregnant are irrelevant to the child's rights once they are born.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 20:06:16 GMT -5
Is it? We have a poster here that had it happen to him. I'm glad they worked it out, and sincerely hope they're able to start the family they both want pretty soon. That doesn't change the fact that it was, in my opinion, a massive betrayal of his trust roughly on par with cheating. Or it would be to me. To completely disregard your partners feelings on something that important is mind boggling to me. We have had posters here that have said pretty much everything under the sun has happened to them. Of all the sources used to prove something, a poster here said so is not a reliable source. Unbelievably I am going to use Richard's favourite line "we need proof"
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 14, 2015 20:12:56 GMT -5
You can never put the pendulum exactly in the middle, but I think you can get it closer than it is now. I'm curious how it qualifies as making it more fair and equal by taking the one person who will in all cases be affected less by the decision and legally ensure his ability to not be affected at all?
If she opts out, he is automatically opted out. If she ends up being responsible for the child, why should he not be? If fairness and equality is your goal, what is more fair than equal responsibility? Either they both are, or neither is, depending on the decision.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 14, 2015 20:28:08 GMT -5
Because he is equally responsible for creating the situation that then requires the decision.
To be honest, I would have been much more interested in your response to the first paragraph there.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 20:28:27 GMT -5
Once they are born. If the father abdicates parental responsibility while the woman is 4 weeks pregnant there's no child with a right to support yet, if I agree with your premise that a child has an inherent right to support from its biological parents in the first place. I'm pretty sure that right doesn't exist since adopted kids receive no support from their biological parents. Women who use sperm banks can't get financial support from the biological father either. If a right to support from both biological parents exists it already has a couple loopholes. Many pages ago I said I'm not sure how to resolve the issue of the child's rights. I'm still not sure. But that is what needs to be addressed. Because the child support is for the child, not the woman.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Aug 14, 2015 20:30:12 GMT -5
Wow, there must have been some interest spark to grow this thread something like 10 more pages since I last came to the site...I'll have to read through them when I have more time.
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