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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 20:34:58 GMT -5
well I never argued the father had any obligations to the fetus, just the child, so I guess this has all been a misunderstanding. He thinks that opting out of responsibility to the fetus opts him out of responsibility to the child. Yes. That's what "he" thinks. And as long as she has that right, he should have that right as well. If you don't like it, take away her right. (I'm NOT advocating for that though... YOU are... if you truly believe that women should have equal rights to men that is...)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 20:37:34 GMT -5
He thinks that opting out of responsibility to the fetus opts him out of responsibility to the child. No, that would be crazy. How could a person think he can opt out of responsibility and make the mother the sole provider for the child of both? His opting out wouldn't MAKE the mother anything... she'd still have free choice to opt out of parenting, if she wanted to, as well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 20:45:13 GMT -5
He thinks that opting out of responsibility to the fetus opts him out of responsibility to the child. No, that would be crazy. How could a person think he can opt out of responsibility and make the mother the sole provider for the child of both? Well no, you see the way he explains it they aren't both responsible. The mother got pregnant on purpose to trap the father. He calls them "gotcha pregnancies". ETA - I'm a little unclear about what she did to stop him from using birth control or having a vasectomy, but apparently she does somehow.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 20:51:17 GMT -5
No, that would be crazy. How could a person think he can opt out of responsibility and make the mother the sole provider for the child of both? Well no, you see the way he explains it they aren't both responsible. The mother got pregnant on purpose to trap the father. He calls them "gotcha pregnancies".
ETA - I'm a little unclear about what she did to stop him from using birth control or having a vasectomy, but apparently she does somehow. I could see that happening, but there is no way he can place any blame on the child. No one thinks the father needs to support the mother. It is the child that needs support.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 20:54:14 GMT -5
No, that would be crazy. How could a person think he can opt out of responsibility and make the mother the sole provider for the child of both? Well no, you see the way he explains it they aren't both responsible. The mother got pregnant on purpose to trap the father. He calls them "gotcha pregnancies". ETA - I'm a little unclear about what she did to stop him from using birth control or having a vasectomy, but apparently she does somehow.Oh come on now, as hot as you are, I am sure you know all about womanly wiles.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 20:55:45 GMT -5
Well no, you see the way he explains it they aren't both responsible. The mother got pregnant on purpose to trap the father. He calls them "gotcha pregnancies".
ETA - I'm a little unclear about what she did to stop him from using birth control or having a vasectomy, but apparently she does somehow. I could see that happening, but there is no way he can place any blame on the child. No one thinks the father needs to support the mother. It is the child that needs support. What he should be promoting is for the father to have the option to put the baby up for adoption the same way the mother does and not be obligated to support the child if he can't or won't. If the mother wants to keep the baby and not give it up for adoption he should have the right to abscond his parental rights. Bringing up abortion just makes the whole discussion messy. So does his misogyny about women getting pregnant on purpose as if there are not a lot of men out there with babies with many different baby mommas. Neither topic needs to come up.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 20:56:06 GMT -5
Vasectomies aren't temporary birth control, they're considered permanent. They can be reversed, but it's not always successful. I was required to go to a counseling thing before I got mine, and that was the main point they drove home. If you were looking for temporary birth control instead of permanent they wouldn't do the surgery since there's no guarantee it can be reversed. As to what she can do to stop him from using birth control, we have a poster on this board who's wife was poking holes in the condoms without his knowledge. It's far fetched, but it does happen. Guys don't have a pill we can take quite yet and we don't have an implant. Our only real option for temporary birth control is condoms which can be sabotaged. Children are considered permanent too.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 20:58:43 GMT -5
Vasectomies aren't temporary birth control, they're considered permanent. They can be reversed, but it's not always successful. I was required to go to a counseling thing before I got mine, and that was the main point they drove home. If you were looking for temporary birth control instead of permanent they wouldn't do the surgery since there's no guarantee it can be reversed. As to what she can do to stop him from using birth control, we have a poster on this board who's wife was poking holes in the condoms without his knowledge. It's far fetched, but it does happen. Guys don't have a pill we can take quite yet and we don't have an implant. Our only real option for temporary birth control is condoms which can be sabotaged. See now here's a way that Feminists are helping men. We have been promoting male birth control be developed for a long time now.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 21:00:20 GMT -5
That is what he and I have been saying. Give fathers the legal right to give up all parental rights and responsibilities during the pregnancy. Give us the same option to wash our hands of it that a woman has with abortion. I cannot believe Laterbloomer is going to your side.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 21:02:41 GMT -5
That is what he and I have been saying. Give fathers the legal right to give up all parental rights and responsibilities during the pregnancy. Give us the same option to wash our hands of it that a woman has with abortion. Well no,you might be but he has been throwing around all kinds of misogyny and stupid comments that make it impossible to have a sensible conversation with him. I could negotiate something like that with certain conditions. If the father gives up his parental rights then that means no visitation or enjoying the fun parts of parenting without any of the responsibilities. And I would want some kind of data base kept of who these men are fathering and some kind of controls put into place when he absconds on his parental rights to more than one child.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 21:04:33 GMT -5
That is what he and I have been saying. Give fathers the legal right to give up all parental rights and responsibilities during the pregnancy. Give us the same option to wash our hands of it that a woman has with abortion. I cannot believe Laterbloomer is going to your side. With conditions...see my last post. Quite honestly, a child is better off without any man that would take that option.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 21:08:21 GMT -5
That is what he and I have been saying. Give fathers the legal right to give up all parental rights and responsibilities during the pregnancy. Give us the same option to wash our hands of it that a woman has with abortion. Well no,you might be but he has been throwing around all kinds of misogyny and stupid comments that make it impossible to have a sensible conversation with him. I could negotiate something like that with certain conditions. If the father gives up his parental rights then that means no visitation or enjoying the fun parts of parenting without any of the responsibilities. And I would want some kind of data base kept of who these men are fathering and some kind of controls put into place when he absconds on his parental rights to more than one child. How is that in any way fair to the child? If a person has a child he and she have obligations to that child. Certainly they can put the child up for adoption, but that is with the hope that those better able to care for the child do. If you have a child you have responsibilities. Too bad if you do not want them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 21:11:16 GMT -5
I cannot believe Laterbloomer is going to your side. With conditions...see my last post. Quite honestly, a child is better off without any man that would take that option. children need things, shoes, school supplies, food, etc. Parents have an obligation to provide that. If they do not want to provide them they should be made to. Again too bad if they do not want to. I do not want to pay taxes but I have to. How much more important is it to provide for your own child then to pay taxes. Come back to the good side.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 21:22:05 GMT -5
ng.Danger Will Robinson. Again, let's take this back to abortion; would you support a government database to keep track of women that are mothering more than one child and absconding their parental rights? Equality is the goal remember. If we're going to have a government database that brands guys with a scarlet letter for absconding parental rights more than once, wouldn't we also have to have a database that branded women with scarlet letters for having more than one abortion? Apples to oranges. A man is capable of fathering way more children to be left up to society to finance. When a woman aborts there is nothing for society to take care of.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 21:25:12 GMT -5
With conditions...see my last post. Quite honestly, a child is better off without any man that would take that option. children need things, shoes, school supplies, food, etc. Parents have an obligation to provide that. If they do not want to provide them they should be made to. Again too bad if they do not want to. I do not want to pay taxes but I have to. How much more important is it to provide for your own child then to pay taxes. Come back to the good side. In principle I agree with you. But I have seen too many wasted resources trying to force men to do this when they don't want to. It really is cheaper just to support the child.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 21:55:49 GMT -5
I could see that happening, but there is no way he can place any blame on the child. No one thinks the father needs to support the mother. It is the child that needs support. What he should be promoting is for the father to have the option to put the baby up for adoption the same way the mother does and not be obligated to support the child if he can't or won't. If the mother wants to keep the baby and not give it up for adoption he should have the right to abscond his parental rights. Bringing up abortion just makes the whole discussion messy. So does his misogyny about women getting pregnant on purpose as if there are not a lot of men out there with babies with many different baby mommas. Neither topic needs to come up. There's that word again... you really should look it up yourself if you won't accept my direct copied definition of it. Women have been known to do it get pregnant on purpose (what... do you need links to stories? I can provide them if you'd like). Too bad if you don't like the truth but it's the truth none-the-less.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 21:56:40 GMT -5
That is what he and I have been saying. Give fathers the legal right to give up all parental rights and responsibilities during the pregnancy. Give us the same option to wash our hands of it that a woman has with abortion.And that a woman has with adoption.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 21:59:05 GMT -5
That is what he and I have been saying. Give fathers the legal right to give up all parental rights and responsibilities during the pregnancy. Give us the same option to wash our hands of it that a woman has with abortion. Well no,you might be but he has been throwing around all kinds of misogyny and stupid comments that make it impossible to have a sensible conversation with him. I could negotiate something like that with certain conditions. If the father gives up his parental rights then that means no visitation or enjoying the fun parts of parenting without any of the responsibilities. And I would want some kind of data base kept of who these men are fathering and some kind of controls put into place when he absconds on his parental rights to more than one child. No. I have not. Quit using that term when describing me and/or my posts. It's insulting, libelous, and in poor taste. You don't like me... fine. But don't spread libelous remarks around that involve me in any way.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 22:38:52 GMT -5
If the guy absconds his parental rights and the woman subsequently decides to get an abortion there's nothing for society to take care of either. If the father absconds his parental rights and the woman raises the child without government support there's nothing for society to take care of. What's the purpose of the database? To track the parents of kids that are on government services? If so, why limit it to just fathers. Plenty of folks get government benefits to help raise their kids, I assume the government already has a database with their names in it. Why create this other one, except to humiliate or brand men that abscond their parental rights, and if that's the purpose, why limit it to just men? Why not humiliate and brand women that choose to get abortions?Because a feminist would never advocate the humiliation of women. And I think she was confusing her words. I believe she meant "abdicate"... not "abscond", because abscond means Leave hurriedly and secretly, typically to avoid detection of or arrest for an unlawful action such as theft.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Aug 11, 2015 7:59:53 GMT -5
That is what he and I have been saying. Give fathers the legal right to give up all parental rights and responsibilities during the pregnancy. Give us the same option to wash our hands of it that a woman has with abortion. Well no,you might be but he has been throwing around all kinds of misogyny and stupid comments that make it impossible to have a sensible conversation with him. I could negotiate something like that with certain conditions. If the father gives up his parental rights then that means no visitation or enjoying the fun parts of parenting without any of the responsibilities. And I would want some kind of data base kept of who these men are fathering and some kind of controls put into place when he absconds on his parental rights to more than one child. Later - I've been following this thread and my understanding of misogyny and yours' may be a bit different. Will you please let me know to which posts of Richard's you are referring? Just because we don't agree with someone, and they may or not be a bit abrasive, doesn't make it ok to stick inappropriate labels on them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 9:58:11 GMT -5
Richard has repeatedly expressed contempt for Feminists and accused women of getting pregnant on purpose as "gotcha" pregnancies amongst other things. He has proven his ingrained prejudice against women repeatedly.
And in compliance with the COC I have not called him a misogynist, I have categorized many of his statements as misogyny.
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Post by The Captain on Aug 11, 2015 10:29:13 GMT -5
I guess it's a matter of perception then. I don't necessarily see a disagreement with a point of view as contempt. Admittedly Rich is a bit abrasive at times, but I don't see his posts as demeaning or signifying contempt for the gender. And yes, I know people who have, and it's been admitted on other threads that it's not uncommon for women to get pregnant in the hopes that it will cement a relationship. Hell, we've even had posters here admit they had the "oops" (not so oops) baby that their DH didn't want but decided to unilaterally have over his wishes. It happens even if you don't want to acknowledge it. I once started a thread asking if a woman unilaterally had the right to hide a pregnancy from the father. The overwhelming consensus from the women was yes, she had the right to deny the father any role in the child's life even to the point of not letting him know the child exists. How messed up is that? The fact is that, right or wrong, the woman gets to call almost all the shots when it comes to pregnancy and access to the baby, unless of course they want assistance in supporting the child. Even then the majority of the rights accrue to the mother. I've been accused of hating women, which I find hilarious. I just call hypocrisy out when I see it. Either you want fair and equal treatment for both genders or you don't. IMHO the fact that you actually carry the child does not give you more or less rights in calling the shots when it does, in fact, take two to create that child. You may not agree which is fine. The world would be a very dull place if we were all the same.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 11, 2015 14:04:13 GMT -5
No, that would be crazy. How could a person think he can opt out of responsibility and make the mother the sole provider for the child of both? Well no, you see the way he explains it they aren't both responsible. The mother got pregnant on purpose to trap the father. He calls them "gotcha pregnancies". ETA - I'm a little unclear about what she did to stop him from using birth control or having a vasectomy, but apparently she does somehow. vasectomies are not really birth control- they are sterilization. and rubbers fail more often than the pill.
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Post by dondub on Aug 11, 2015 14:22:46 GMT -5
Of course vasectomies are birth control. Just a permanent form, sterilization, versus all the other methods. I gladly had one after #2 was born, as after ~24 years of: BC pills, condoms, spermicidal foam, rhythm(abstinence), diaphragms, spermicidal eggs I was quite tired of it all.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 14:29:22 GMT -5
Well no, you see the way he explains it they aren't both responsible. The mother got pregnant on purpose to trap the father. He calls them "gotcha pregnancies". ETA - I'm a little unclear about what she did to stop him from using birth control or having a vasectomy, but apparently she does somehow. vasectomies are not really birth control- they are sterilization. and rubbers fail more often than the pill. We aren't talking about bc failure, we are talking about purposefully getting pregnant.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 11, 2015 14:30:42 GMT -5
vasectomies are not really birth control- they are sterilization. and rubbers fail more often than the pill. We aren't talking about bc failure, we are talking about purposefully getting pregnant. you might be, but i wasn't. so...thanks for the clarification.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 11, 2015 14:32:42 GMT -5
Of course vasectomies are birth control. Just a permanent form, sterilization, versus all the other methods. I gladly had one after #2 was born, as after ~24 years of: BC pills, condoms, spermicidal foam, rhythm(abstinence), diaphragms, spermicidal eggs I was quite tired of it all. death is also birth control.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 14:34:40 GMT -5
Richard has repeatedly expressed contempt for Feminists and accused women of getting pregnant on purpose as "gotcha" pregnancies amongst other things. He has proven his ingrained prejudice against women repeatedly.
And in compliance with the COC I have not called him a misogynist, I have categorized many of his statements as misogyny.
I don't think that the women that we would label as "feminists" are the ones trapping guys.
but i can tell you that that sh&T happens for real. I had one try to get me years back.
I suppose some women do something that stupid, but I see no evidence that it is a common practise or justifies generalizing women's behaviour. It also is not an argument for men having the right to abdicate their parental responsibility. If anything, the idea that a woman might purposely get pregnant is a reason for men to take more control of birth control and reproductive possibility, not less.
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 11, 2015 15:10:29 GMT -5
As long as we also remove the tax payers responsibility as well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 17:01:07 GMT -5
Or, we take away the incentive for women to try and cement a relationship or trap a man with a kid. We push for being able to abdicate our parental rights, so there's nothing that a woman can gain by having the gotcha pregnancy. Using that as a reason for it implies that gotcha pregnancies are a common practice. That is blatantly untrue and displays a contempt and prejudice against women.
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