I was right: President Elect Trump

[tallguy]

Aug 21, 2015 21:57:37 GMT -5 fishy999 said:

Aug 21, 2015 21:14:35 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Would you please explain for us the meaning of the phrase, "...AND subject to the jurisdiction thereof?"  Thanks.    (emphasis mine)

Far easier for you to explain who in this country is NOT subject to the jurisdiction thereof. A couple of diplomats that fires one out in an embassy?  

It has been through the Supreme Court anyway- so best of luck to the Donald.  

I take it that's a "No, I can't" then?

I've never been a big believer in the notion that there is a lot of extraneous verbiage that survives into the written Constitutional Amendments.  Do you really think they included an extra phrase solely to exclude the children of foreign diplomats and occupying soldiers?  I don't.  As I recall, the biggest issue was how to treat the children of slaves.  There is nothing in there that specifically includes everybody born here.  If they wanted to make that the case, it would have been easily done, and in fewer words.  The phrase, "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" would ONLY have been included in order to exclude certain classes from automatic citizenship. 

And while Ark does define certain matters regarding citizenship, I would argue again that it is not entirely on point in that the parents were in the country legally.  From the decision:

The reasons for not allowing to other aliens exemption "from the jurisdiction of the country in which they are found" were stated as follows:

When private individuals of one nation spread themselves through another as business or caprice may direct, mingling indiscriminately with the inhabitants of that other, or when merchant vessels enter for the purposes of trade, it would be obviously inconvenient and dangerous to society, and would subject the laws to continual infraction and the government to degradation, if such individuals or merchants did not owe temporary and local allegiance, and were [p686] not amenable to the jurisdiction of the country. Nor can the foreign sovereign have any motive for wishing such exemption. His subjects thus passing into foreign counties are not employed by him, nor are they engaged in national pursuits. Consequently there are powerful motives for not exempting persons of this description from the jurisdiction of the country in which they are found, and no one motive for requiring it. The implied license, therefore, under which they enter can never be construed to grant such exemption.

The decision speaks of "the implied license under which they enter...."  That can only refer to persons in the country legally.  Persons who have entered illegally have no license, implied or otherwise, to enter.  They are thus not protected by this reasoning.

If they are in the country illegally, they have not subjected themselves to the jurisdiction of the United States.  Understandably, since it would result in their removal.  They are still subjects of a foreign power.  I would also be curious if the concept of illegal immigration even existed at the time the 14th Amendment was ratified.  As far as I know, we had no laws against immigration until after that.  If that is true, the 14th Amendment cannot be specifically said to include the children of illegals since the concept did not exist at the time.   

[tallguy]

Aug 21, 2015 22:51:49 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 21, 2015 18:18:26 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

“Senator Jacob Howard, the author of the citizenship clause of the Fourteenth Amendment – he spoke – he told us what he meant. He defined who would fall within the ‘jurisdiction of the United States.’ Ready?

“‘Every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, [meaning the states – their jurisdiction] is, by virtue of natural law and national law, a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great issue in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country.’

i found this somewhat interesting, and have been looking into it.  thanks for posting.  that goes for you too, tall.

I found it interesting as well, though I haven't started trying to research it yet.  A link would have helped. 

[djAdvocate]

Aug 21, 2015 23:04:24 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Aug 21, 2015 22:51:49 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i found this somewhat interesting, and have been looking into it.  thanks for posting.  that goes for you too, tall.

I found it interesting as well, though I haven't started trying to research it yet.  A link would have helped. 

oh, COME ON!!!  LINKS?? 

[tallguy]

Aug 21, 2015 23:28:16 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 21, 2015 23:04:24 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I found it interesting as well, though I haven't started trying to research it yet.  A link would have helped. 

oh, COME ON!!!  LINKS?? 

I know, but come on yourself.  It's Paul.  I seriously want to know where it came from!   

[tallguy]

By the way, if you find anything in our companion arguments compelling, you may want to keep it to yourself.  The idea of Paul and I combining to change your mind may be enough to cause a rift in the space/time continuum.  

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Make America Great Again is the new hope and change. I think you're either on the Trump Train, or you're in front of it.  I'm not the best of political prognosticators as we all know- no one knows better than me.  But I am increasingly at a loss for coming up with a scenario where Donald Trump does not walk away with the GOP nomination. 

SWEET HOME ALABAMA- TRUMP FILLS 42,000 SEAT STADIUM
www.wnd.com/2015/08/biggest-event-yet-massive-crowd-goes-wild-for-trump/

[djAdvocate]

Aug 22, 2015 11:19:26 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Make America Great Again is the new hope and change. I think you're either on the Trump Train, or you're in front of it.  I'm not the best of political prognosticators as we all know- no one knows better than me.  But I am increasingly at a loss for coming up with a scenario where Donald Trump does not walk away with the GOP nomination. 

SWEET HOME ALABAMA- TRUMP FILLS 42,000 SEAT STADIUM
www.wnd.com/2015/08/biggest-event-yet-massive-crowd-goes-wild-for-trump/

except it is a lie.  the stadium was only half full.

edit: even the daily mail got it right (a murdoch publication):

Thousands of Alabama voters came out to hear the New Yorker bring his message to the Deep South. The 40,000-seat Ladd-Peebles Stadium was about half-full when Trump began his speech.

Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3206742/I-don-t-want-wait-Donald-Trump-tells-crowd-Alabama-stadium-wishes-election-tomorrow-far-ahead-opponents-despite-hype-stadium-half-full.html#ixzz3jZ0QvOu1
Follow us: @mailonline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[djAdvocate]

nice crowd, tho.  he is almost up to Sanders-like numbers. 

i will give you a scenario where Trump loses the nomination, since you are at a loss for one:

Trump continues to blab his big mouth off until he alienates enough voters that they drift away from him.
Trump states his actual POSITIONS and POLICIES which are so dumb that voters can't stomach them.

and sure, that stuff might not happen, and he might win the nomination.  but i don't think he is by any means a "lock".

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

I was there.  Stadium was full, and there were as many people outside as inside. I would only add that the lead up was a long, boring procession of local pols and community groups- so there was a lot of milling about until Sweet Home Alabama came on.  The sound sucked, so I didn't actually hear much of what he said. And- Bernie Sanders is campaigning in friendly territory. This is a Manhattan real estate developer in Mobile- c'mon down, Bernie. See how you do.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 22, 2015 12:15:09 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I was there.  Stadium was full, and there were as many people outside as inside. I would only add that the lead up was a long, boring procession of local pols and community groups- so there was a lot of milling about until Sweet Home Alabama came on.  The sound sucked, so I didn't actually hear much of what he said. And- Bernie Sanders is campaigning in friendly territory. This is a Manhattan real estate developer in Mobile- c'mon down, Bernie. See how you do.

i have seen pictures of the stadium when Trump was speaking, and it was only half full, and the local authorities said that only half the seats were filled.

do you have pictures you can post that show the stadium seats OPPOSITE where Trump was speaking full?

also, what you said about Sanders was not entirely accurate.  he drew 11,000 in Phoenix and 10,000 in Dallas.

edit: never mind, i found pictures (this was from a very enthusiastic Trump supporter, btw):

[shelby]

He's nothing more than a troll in my opinion. Sabotaging the GOP race.

fivethirtyeight.com/features/donald-trump-is-the-worlds-greatest-troll/

Does anyone else think the pictures above were trolling as well? I mean "thank you lord Jesus for president trump" has to be satire. He was an atheist until like 2 minutes ago.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 22, 2015 12:27:15 GMT -5 shelby said:

He's nothing more than a troll in my opinion. Sabotaging the GOP race.

fivethirtyeight.com/features/donald-trump-is-the-worlds-greatest-troll/

Does anyone else think the pictures above were trolling as well? I mean "thank you lord Jesus for president trump" has to be satire. He was an atheist until like 2 minutes ago.

that article had an interesting take on the trajectory of a typical fringe candidate: discovery, scrutiny, decline.

Trump is in the discovery phase. 

[mmhmm]

There's always Deez Nuts, the 15-year-old Republican candidate from Iowa.  He's a newcomer, but his following seems to be increasing. link

[Tennesseer]

Aug 22, 2015 12:26:11 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 22, 2015 12:15:09 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I was there.  Stadium was full, and there were as many people outside as inside. I would only add that the lead up was a long, boring procession of local pols and community groups- so there was a lot of milling about until Sweet Home Alabama came on.  The sound sucked, so I didn't actually hear much of what he said. And- Bernie Sanders is campaigning in friendly territory. This is a Manhattan real estate developer in Mobile- c'mon down, Bernie. See how you do.

i have seen pictures of the stadium when Trump was speaking, and it was only half full, and the local authorities said that only half the seats were filled.

do you have pictures you can post that show the stadium seats OPPOSITE where Trump was speaking full?

also, what you said about Sanders was not entirely accurate.  he drew 11,000 in Phoenix and 10,000 in Dallas.

edit: never mind, i found pictures (this was from a very enthusiastic Trump supporter, btw):

Someone is lying.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 22, 2015 12:54:00 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Aug 22, 2015 12:26:11 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i have seen pictures of the stadium when Trump was speaking, and it was only half full, and the local authorities said that only half the seats were filled.

do you have pictures you can post that show the stadium seats OPPOSITE where Trump was speaking full?

also, what you said about Sanders was not entirely accurate.  he drew 11,000 in Phoenix and 10,000 in Dallas.

edit: never mind, i found pictures (this was from a very enthusiastic Trump supporter, btw):

Someone is lying.

clearly.  on the one hand we have Paul and Breitbart.  on the other hand we have NBC, the local authorities, the Daily Mail, and whoever took the pictures above.  hmmm......let me think............

[djAdvocate]

Aug 22, 2015 11:19:26 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Make America Great Again is the new hope and change. I think you're either on the Trump Train, or you're in front of it.  I'm not the best of political prognosticators as we all know- no one knows better than me.  But I am increasingly at a loss for coming up with a scenario where Donald Trump does not walk away with the GOP nomination. 

SWEET HOME ALABAMA- TRUMP FILLS 42,000 SEAT STADIUM
www.wnd.com/2015/08/biggest-event-yet-massive-crowd-goes-wild-for-trump/

actually, i just noticed something about THIS/\ picture.  do you see what i see?

[Tennesseer]

Beside the empty seats in the background? 

[shelby]

www.redstate.com/diary/davenj1/2015/07/27/donald-trump-troll-mole/

"Or, we can look at his history littered with campaign donations to Democratic candidates not only in New York, but in other areas where he had no business dealings. We can look at his positions: in 2000, pro-choice; in 2011- pro-life. As recently as 1999, he proposed a 14.25% tax on wealth to eliminate the national debt (he still believes in this). In 2000, he advocated for hate crime prosecutions for attacks on gays. And the list of flip-flops go on and on. We can give him a pass and assume that he has evolved on these issues"

Evolved? I would say devolved.

[shelby]

actually, i just noticed something about THIS/\ picture. do you see what i see?

No, please share.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 22, 2015 13:18:59 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Beside the empty seats in the background? 

i have to admit, i was so distracted by the foreground, i didn't notice it before.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 22, 2015 13:21:30 GMT -5 shelby said:

actually, i just noticed something about THIS/\ picture. do you see what i see?

No, please share.

Tennessee got it.

[Tennesseer]

Aug 22, 2015 13:24:42 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 22, 2015 13:18:59 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Beside the empty seats in the background? 

i have to admit, i was so distracted by the foreground, i didn't notice it before.

It jumped out at me like a slap in the face.

[Tennesseer]

Here's another picture from yesterday:

[kent]

Regarding the size of the crowd. Did Trump actually say there would be 42,000 people attending or was it the unbiased media that said he did and he's delusional because nowhere near that number showed up.  Accordingly, this would PROVE to everyone he's not really that popular.

From what I heard, the original location was in some hotel ballroom or something that could only hold a few hundred and they called to tell the Trump people they couldn't handle the number of people that wanted to attend.

As a result, they scheduled another venue that could hold 10,000 people and, like the first place, it was too small as well so they changed the venue to the stadium which happens to hold around 42,000 people.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 22, 2015 13:37:42 GMT -5 kent said:

Regarding the size of the crowd. Did Trump actually say there would be 42,000 people attending or was it the unbiased media that said he did and he's delusional because nowhere near that number showed up. 

first of all, do you think it is inconsistent for Trump to exaggerate crowd sizes?

second- i never said TRUMP made the claim.  i said that BreitBart and Paul did.

i don't know what Trump claimed, honestly, and i don't really care.  i only care about the facts.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 22, 2015 13:41:27 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

The empty stadium isn't that big of a deal. .

agreed.  but lying about it is a "bigger" deal.

[Tennesseer]

Aug 22, 2015 13:37:42 GMT -5 kent said:

Regarding the size of the crowd. Did Trump actually say there would be 42,000 people attending or was it the unbiased media that said he did and he's delusional because nowhere near that number showed up.  Accordingly, this would PROVE to everyone he's not really that popular.

From what I heard, the original location was in some hotel ballroom or something that could only hold a few hundred and they called to tell the Trump people they couldn't handle the number of people that wanted to attend.

As a result, they scheduled another venue that could hold 10,000 people and, like the first place, it was too small as well so they changed the venue to the stadium which happens to hold around 42,000 people.

And because the setup at Ladd-Peebles Stadium for Trump's visit was concert style, and there is a crowd on the field like a concert, Trump clearly did not fill the stadium because Ladd-Peebles Stadium can hold 150,000 for concerts, folks on the field included.

Ladd-Peebles Stadium

[kent]

Given people tend to look at headlines and run with it, I thought this would prove a bit amusing.  Cancel a reservation AND of golf thingy all to be PC and some in the media want to intimate there there's a mass exit from the Trump camp 

NASCAR is the latest brand to Donald Trump

NASCAR DUMPS TRUMP - Actually, they cancelled a reservation in one of his hotels - hardly an entire organization "dumping" him - I believe he stated he doesn't even have a "business" relationship with NASCAR.  I don't know whether to call this "spin" or outright deception (I think I'll go with the later).

www.wsj.com/articles/espn-moves-golf-classic-from-trump-national-golf-club-1436215247

ESPN Moves Golf Event From Trump PropertyESPN on Monday became the latest major company to distance itself from Donald Trump since the presidential candidate’s negative remarks about Mexican immigration.

The Walt Disney Co. unit said it would move a coming celebrity golf tournament from Trump National Golf Club in Los Angeles to another Southern California course.

Politics

[kent]

Aug 22, 2015 13:46:01 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 22, 2015 13:37:42 GMT -5 kent said:

Regarding the size of the crowd. Did Trump actually say there would be 42,000 people attending or was it the unbiased media that said he did and he's delusional because nowhere near that number showed up. 

first of all, do you think it is inconsistent for Trump to exaggerate crowd sizes?

second- i never said TRUMP made the claim.  i said that BreitBart and Paul did.

i don't know what Trump claimed, honestly, and i don't really care.  i only care about the facts.

DJ - Nothing was directed at you, nothing at all - didn't read through all the posts.  If you feel I was responding to what you might have said, that's not so.  Just in case you find that hard to believe, I will offer this as an olive branch - Lo siento.

[kent]

Aug 22, 2015 13:41:27 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Not saying Trump's campaign will follow the same trajectory, but I'd be shocked if any candidate could fill a 42,000 person stadium for a stump speech this far in advance of an election. Most people don't start making up their mind until far closer to the election.

That was my thought as well - too early.