AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 10, 2015 9:00:56 GMT -5
We lost the country when we elected Obama. ... ... we lost the country in 2001-2003. .... ... We lost the country with George W Bush and Dick Cheney. ... My two cents: We lost this country when after taking control of the world economy and developing one hell of a high standard of living, we didn't adjust our standard of living when we lost that control. Instead we declared it Morning in America and pulled out the credit card. We have been living on borrowed time/money ever since. Our two biggest fiscal nightmares are Social Security - FDR, and LBJ's "Great Society" programs- the crown jewels of which are Medicare and Medicaid. Yes, we whipped out the credit card (and raised taxes- let's not forget TRA in 1986) rather than deal with these two looming fiscal nightmares, but the biggest underlying social problems began with our two "great leaps forward" into socialism.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 10, 2015 9:04:02 GMT -5
Really? I thought it was the "I'll shut the whole damn thing down if I don't get my way" congress. Yes and they did shut down the government. They got paid while others didn't and citizens were denied access to parks, monuments etc. Cost the government about $25B. Hey that's our money!! Thanks GOP. The government shutdown canard, really? The government was no more shut down then than it is every Friday afternoon until Monday morning.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Dec 10, 2015 9:36:26 GMT -5
The government shut down of Oct 1 - 16, 2013 was neither an unfounded rumor nor over a weekend.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Dec 10, 2015 9:56:23 GMT -5
I don't recall that I said that, but that was 4 years ago. I've slept since then. I was stating why Trump is popular. He appeals to a certain type of person - people who feel like they are being screwed over and that the minorities are gaining the upper hand. That's why they love his anti immigration statements. I didn't say ALL white people think this way. Just some. So it's not racial stereotyping. Understood. I'm just saying that in future, somebody might feel obliged to state why Bernie Sanders (for example) is popular. He appeals to a certain type of person - blacks on welfare who feel like he could give them a bit more loving from the public purse. That's why they love his myriad "free crap for everybody" statements. The poster won't say ALL black people think this way. Just some. So it's not racial stereotyping. And you shouldn't call it that. Well, ok, but Sanders actually doesn't have much support from black voters, just FYI. However, the Sanders revolution so far has been confined to voters who are mostly young, mostly men and mostly white, and has not translated into first-place poll numbers anywhere outside New Hampshire. www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/aug/30/bernie-sanders-voter-base-is-growing-but-narrow/?page=all
In fact, black people have protested at Sanders rallies in the past because he made the statement that he didn't think black lives mattered, he thought all lives mattered, and some people took offense to that. So - if you said blacks on welfare are voting for Sanders because they want free stuff, you would be wrong, because not many blacks are actually lining up behind Sanders. However, you could say that college students (of all colors) are getting behind Sanders because he is advocating for free college tuition for everyone, and that would be correct. Trump seems to be purposefully wooing the white blue collar voters while ignoring non white voters, possibly in the believe that minority voters don't matter if he can lure the disaffected white voters to the polling booths. This isn't racism, it's his campaign strategy, and it's what has him leading the GOP pack: Political commentators with conservative media organizations have said for two years now that between 5 million and 10 million disaffected white voters stayed home in 2012 -- and that if Romney had won 63 percent of the white vote (instead of 59 percent), all other voter demographics would not have mattered. www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-the-edge/2015/09/08/the-white-vote-the-rise-of-donald-trump-shows-it-may-be-returning
So - black voters voting for Sanders to get free stuff = not factually correct, but white anti-immigration, anti-Muslim middle class voters voting for Trump = true. I don't think it's a question of racism at all, if poll numbers show it to be true. It is what it is.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Dec 10, 2015 10:07:20 GMT -5
Donald Trump is saying what angry white people want him to say, and chumming the waters for attention. My guess is he quits when he loses a couple primaries and insists he's not a loser because he never intended to be President. No way he would want to be POTUS and give up control of his company for 4 years, and while he claims he's for the middle class, he was born into the upper class and lives the 1% lifestyle. He won't want to give up that up in order to rub elbows with the unwashed middle class. Can you imagine the current Mrs Trump showing up for the inauguration in a cloth coat instead of one of her furs so that she can demonstrate she's 'one of the people?' Won't happen. You know, if Trump's opponents don't come up with a better argument than "RACISTBIGOTSEXISTHOMOPHOBE!!!" every time Trump says something they don't like, Trump is going to be elected President. All the phony rhetoric that's supposed to do Republicans in, Trump is immune to. I think we've gotten to the point where there's a segment of society so completely and utterly out of touch with where the people that make this country work are, they don't recognize that Trump isn't nutty, or hateful, or even particularly controversial. Trump has simply started the first adult conversation decades on numerous issues and the GOP establishment-Democrat-Media complex in this country simply don't know how to handle it. When they tell you you've gone too far, you're supposed to stop and apologize, and your supporters are supposed to abandon you. I have news for you: we're off script now. You're going to have to make a coherent counter-point. Name calling and race baiting isn't going to cut it this time around. A segment of society so completely and utterly out of touch? Yes, I think there is such a segment. I think though, it's not the segment you have in mind.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 10, 2015 11:57:22 GMT -5
My two cents: We lost this country when after taking control of the world economy and developing one hell of a high standard of living, we didn't adjust our standard of living when we lost that control. Instead we declared it Morning in America and pulled out the credit card. We have been living on borrowed time/money ever since. Our two biggest fiscal nightmares are Social Security - FDR, and LBJ's "Great Society" programs- the crown jewels of which are Medicare and Medicaid. Yes, we whipped out the credit card (and raised taxes- let's not forget TRA in 1986) rather than deal with these two looming fiscal nightmares, but the biggest underlying social problems began with our two "great leaps forward" into socialism. Reagan upped the ante on those programs, despite being an early and vocal opponent of them. QED.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 10, 2015 13:12:30 GMT -5
Understood. I'm just saying that in future, somebody might feel obliged to state why Bernie Sanders (for example) is popular. He appeals to a certain type of person - blacks on welfare who feel like he could give them a bit more loving from the public purse. That's why they love his myriad "free crap for everybody" statements. The poster won't say ALL black people think this way. Just some. So it's not racial stereotyping. And you shouldn't call it that. Well, ok, but Sanders actually doesn't have much support from black voters, just FYI. However, the Sanders revolution so far has been confined to voters who are mostly young, mostly men and mostly white, and has not translated into first-place poll numbers anywhere outside New Hampshire. www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/aug/30/bernie-sanders-voter-base-is-growing-but-narrow/?page=all
In fact, black people have protested at Sanders rallies in the past because he made the statement that he didn't think black lives mattered, he thought all lives mattered, and some people took offense to that. So - if you said blacks on welfare are voting for Sanders because they want free stuff, you would be wrong, because not many blacks are actually lining up behind Sanders. However, you could say that college students (of all colors) are getting behind Sanders because he is advocating for free college tuition for everyone, and that would be correct. Trump seems to be purposefully wooing the white blue collar voters while ignoring non white voters, possibly in the believe that minority voters don't matter if he can lure the disaffected white voters to the polling booths. This isn't racism, it's his campaign strategy, and it's what has him leading the GOP pack: Political commentators with conservative media organizations have said for two years now that between 5 million and 10 million disaffected white voters stayed home in 2012 -- and that if Romney had won 63 percent of the white vote (instead of 59 percent), all other voter demographics would not have mattered. www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-the-edge/2015/09/08/the-white-vote-the-rise-of-donald-trump-shows-it-may-be-returning
So - black voters voting for Sanders to get free stuff = not factually correct, but white anti-immigration, anti-Muslim middle class voters voting for Trump = true. I don't think it's a question of racism at all, if poll numbers show it to be true. It is what it is. Sorry. It's a fair analysis. You're just totally missing the point. Substitute in [candidate liked by black welfare voters] for "Bernie Sanders" and re-read the argument. I would've used "Barack Obama", only my hypothetical was supposed to pertain to the future. I think you'll find that no matter what name you put in and no matter how generally true it is that so-and-so is the black welfare candidate, the resulting statement is something you personally wouldn't want people saying on the board. If that's not true and I'm mistaken, you can very easily shut me up by not complaining about racism and/or racial stereotyping the next time somebody makes this kind of statement.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 10, 2015 13:14:26 GMT -5
"In a nation that was proud of hard work, strong families, close-knit communities and our faith in God, too many of us now tend to worship self-indulgence and consumption. Human identity is no longer defined by what one does but by what one owns." A little more than a year later, Ronald Reagan defeated Carter by offering Americans a vision that was as optimistic as Carter's was pessimistic. Every four years thereafter, the Republicans' traditional refrain equated Democratic leadership with the notion that America was in decline and needed to reign in its famous appetites. The fact that Caddell and Carter may have been right, in some sense, was almost beside the point. "If you are president and you're going to diagnose a problem, you better have a solution to it," Hertzberg notes. "While he turned out to be a true prophet, he turned out not to be a savior." Carter's "Crisis of Confidence" SpeechThe question at hand was when did "we" lose "this country". I don't blame Reagan. The American people had a choice and they made it. Now we are facing the consequences of that choice.
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verrip1
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Post by verrip1 on Dec 10, 2015 15:59:02 GMT -5
"In a nation that was proud of hard work, strong families, close-knit communities and our faith in God, too many of us now tend to worship self-indulgence and consumption. Human identity is no longer defined by what one does but by what one owns." A little more than a year later, Ronald Reagan defeated Carter by offering Americans a vision that was as optimistic as Carter's was pessimistic. Every four years thereafter, the Republicans' traditional refrain equated Democratic leadership with the notion that America was in decline and needed to reign in its famous appetites. The fact that Caddell and Carter may have been right, in some sense, was almost beside the point. "If you are president and you're going to diagnose a problem, you better have a solution to it," Hertzberg notes. "While he turned out to be a true prophet, he turned out not to be a savior." Carter's "Crisis of Confidence" Speech The question at hand was when did "we" lose "this country". I don't blame Reagan. The American people had a choice and they made it. Now we are facing the consequences of that choice. If we "lost" the country by having a fractured government, then it happened when the vast majority of people accepted that party loyalty and ideology was more important than the condition of the country. It might be surprising to find out how many folks here would knowingly and willfully hurt the country for several decades in the hopes of making it better sometime later.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 10, 2015 16:12:27 GMT -5
... The question at hand was when did "we" lose "this country". I don't blame Reagan. The American people had a choice and they made it. Now we are facing the consequences of that choice. If we "lost" the country by having a fractured government, then it happened when the vast majority of people accepted that party loyalty and ideology was more important than the condition of the country. It might be surprising to find out how many folks here would knowingly and willfully hurt the country for several decades in the hopes of making it better sometime later. Not sure why you have quoted me here. My thesis has nothing to do with "fractured government".
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Dec 11, 2015 7:50:49 GMT -5
Well, ok, but Sanders actually doesn't have much support from black voters, just FYI. However, the Sanders revolution so far has been confined to voters who are mostly young, mostly men and mostly white, and has not translated into first-place poll numbers anywhere outside New Hampshire. www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/aug/30/bernie-sanders-voter-base-is-growing-but-narrow/?page=all
In fact, black people have protested at Sanders rallies in the past because he made the statement that he didn't think black lives mattered, he thought all lives mattered, and some people took offense to that. So - if you said blacks on welfare are voting for Sanders because they want free stuff, you would be wrong, because not many blacks are actually lining up behind Sanders. However, you could say that college students (of all colors) are getting behind Sanders because he is advocating for free college tuition for everyone, and that would be correct. Trump seems to be purposefully wooing the white blue collar voters while ignoring non white voters, possibly in the believe that minority voters don't matter if he can lure the disaffected white voters to the polling booths. This isn't racism, it's his campaign strategy, and it's what has him leading the GOP pack: Political commentators with conservative media organizations have said for two years now that between 5 million and 10 million disaffected white voters stayed home in 2012 -- and that if Romney had won 63 percent of the white vote (instead of 59 percent), all other voter demographics would not have mattered. www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-the-edge/2015/09/08/the-white-vote-the-rise-of-donald-trump-shows-it-may-be-returning
So - black voters voting for Sanders to get free stuff = not factually correct, but white anti-immigration, anti-Muslim middle class voters voting for Trump = true. I don't think it's a question of racism at all, if poll numbers show it to be true. It is what it is. Sorry. It's a fair analysis. You're just totally missing the point. Substitute in [candidate liked by black welfare voters] for "Bernie Sanders" and re-read the argument. I would've used "Barack Obama", only my hypothetical was supposed to pertain to the future. I think you'll find that no matter what name you put in and no matter how generally true it is that so-and-so is the black welfare candidate, the resulting statement is something you personally wouldn't want people saying on the board. If that's not true and I'm mistaken, you can very easily shut me up by not complaining about racism and/or racial stereotyping the next time somebody makes this kind of statement. Actually I think you missed my point. They run crazy numbers of polls to determine the voter base for each candidate. I'm certain that Obama had more support from poor blacks in the last election than Romney did, mostly because Romney didn't have a lot of non-white support, and because of some of his foot in mouth statements about his wealth, he wasn't popular with poor people. Which is why I don't think I would have said anything against someone calling Obama the candidate that non whites on welfare are most likely to support - poll numbers would have demonstrated that. Just as they support my statement that less educated, blue collar whites who have a thing against immigrants (a group that hasn't gone to the polls much in the last few elections) make up a lot of Trumps' voter base.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 11, 2015 8:16:50 GMT -5
Actually I think you missed my point. They run crazy numbers of polls to determine the voter base for each candidate. I'm certain that Obama had more support from poor blacks in the last election than Romney did, mostly because Romney didn't have a lot of non-white support, and because of some of his foot in mouth statements about his wealth, he wasn't popular with poor people. Which is why I don't think I would have said anything against someone calling Obama the candidate that non whites on welfare are most likely to support - poll numbers would have demonstrated that. Just as they support my statement that less educated, blue collar whites who have a thing against immigrants (a group that hasn't gone to the polls much in the last few elections) make up a lot of Trumps' voter base. OK. I was sure you'd indulged in some rants about your MIL engaging in "racist stereotyping" by condemning the poor black vote for Pres. Obama in 2012, but I can't find any. I may well have confused you with somebody else. I've got my eye on you, though.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Dec 11, 2015 8:27:20 GMT -5
Actually I think you missed my point. They run crazy numbers of polls to determine the voter base for each candidate. I'm certain that Obama had more support from poor blacks in the last election than Romney did, mostly because Romney didn't have a lot of non-white support, and because of some of his foot in mouth statements about his wealth, he wasn't popular with poor people. Which is why I don't think I would have said anything against someone calling Obama the candidate that non whites on welfare are most likely to support - poll numbers would have demonstrated that. Just as they support my statement that less educated, blue collar whites who have a thing against immigrants (a group that hasn't gone to the polls much in the last few elections) make up a lot of Trumps' voter base. OK. I was sure you'd indulged in some rants about your MIL engaging in "racist stereotyping" by condemning the poor black vote for Pres. Obama in 2012, but I can't find any. I may well have confused you with somebody else. I've got my eye on you, though. Well, it's possible I engaged in a rant about my own Mom. She and all the biddies in her bridge group had decided that if Obama got elected 'They' would start bussing black welfare people into white neighborhoods and allowing the black people to just kick the white folks out and move into their homes. The white people would be homeless and the black welfare people would all have beautiful free homes, thanks to Obama. I tried to explain that this would go against every fundamental principle of capitalism and no president could ever do that unless he wanted to be impeached the following day, but my mom and her little bridge ladies had somehow firmly wedged this idea into their little blue heads and she was literally in a state of panic on election night, certain the black people would be on her doorstep the following morning. And that made me feel ranty, so I might have gone off about that. My lovely mom - at least she's an equal opportunity racist, she thinks just as poorly about the Catholics, the Jews, the Italians, Southerners, Hispanics in general, and there are probably more I'm leaving out...
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 11, 2015 9:27:24 GMT -5
The government shut down of Oct 1 - 16, 2013 was neither an unfounded rumor nor over a weekend. ALL government shutdowns are political stunts dating back to 1995. We need leadership with some balls to say, fine, ************s. You won't balance the budget, you won't acknowledge the will of the people- we'll just sit here until you do. Congress has the power of the purse for a reason-- we have divided government for a reason. Gridlock is GOOD. It should be a stalemate MOST of the time.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 11, 2015 9:43:42 GMT -5
The sleeping giant Trump has woken up is the white working class. Obama openly and notoriously abandoned white working class voters in 2012, but both parties have been pandering to a globalist agenda that screws Americans for decades. Both parties have a top and bottom strategy-- get money from crony capitalists and special interests at the top of the food chain, create, and then exploit the product of a system that keeps people ignorant and dependent at the bottom, and steam roll everyone else. In short- both parties are pursuing an agenda that will virtually ensure the entire planet looks like a third world hell hole. And if you really want to get real for just a second: the plan is to stymie the rest of us until such time as they can murder us en masse. You can't look at flourishing radical islam, ebola, big agribusiness, and iranian nuclear weapons any other way. Pestilence, War, and Famine are literal horsemen of the apocalypse-- but you don't have to believe in religious predictions of doom and gloom to see the coming global tyranny nightmare taking shape. What do you think your daily routine in America is going to be like after New York, Chicago, and LA are simultaneously nuked? Think you're just going to get in your car in Orlando, Louisville, St. Louis, or New Orleans and go get your day's groceries? God willing these things won't happen, but you can't look at the the historical norm- which is abject poverty, disease, famine, and death under tyrannical leadership and look at the current situation in the world eyes wide open and think that barring divine intervention we're not headed-- and very rapidly-- towards WWIII and a version of hell on earth. There are a select few leaders who can avert this crisis-- I think Trump knows this, and will try-- but I'm not sure he's the best we've got. Cruz has a firm grasp on reality, and an effective plan to put us back on course-- but again, I don't see how any of it is stopped entirely. I just think we need to be ready individually-- that's the ultimate plan, because no one is coming to help-- and the plan to help won't be to help you-- it's going to be to "redistribute" your preparedness (part of preparedness is being ready for that)-- and we need to elect rock solid conservative leadership so the right people at the top don't make things worse. To me, Cruz is the one. Cruz isn't perfect- I wish he hadn't been worked over on TPA by McConnell; but he's closest to the perfect candidate I've ever seen. Better than Reagan.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 11, 2015 9:59:59 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 11, 2015 12:00:41 GMT -5
i don't think many of the people you are trying to convince are going to click that link, Paul. just sayin'.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Dec 11, 2015 12:53:27 GMT -5
And if you really want to get real for just a second: the plan is to stymie the rest of us until such time as they can murder us en masse. You can't look at flourishing radical islam, ebola, big agribusiness, and iranian nuclear weapons any other way.
You're always such a cheerful breath of fresh air, Paul. Even on the gloomiest days, you remind me again that life is worth living.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 11, 2015 18:40:14 GMT -5
i don't think many of the people you are trying to convince are going to click that link, Paul. just sayin'. Saves me the trouble of discussing it with them.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 11, 2015 18:41:08 GMT -5
I think Trump is the placeholder for "None of the Above". He's going to be POTUS.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 11, 2015 19:17:46 GMT -5
"I've never seen anything like this. There's no sign of [the voters] leaving [Trump]. He has created or found the magic formula. Not only is he not going away...what we saw was remarkable. It's time for the Republican establishment to accept the fact that Trump is not only a viable candidate, but:
His lead is real
His candidacy is real
His support is real,
We showed [Trump supporters] both positive and negative, and the responses when it was over, even after showing them negative information on Trump, his support went up from when they walked in three hours earlier. I've never seen anything like it" - pollster Frank Luntz.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 11, 2015 19:37:22 GMT -5
And if you really want to get real for just a second: the plan is to stymie the rest of us until such time as they can murder us en masse. You can't look at flourishing radical islam, ebola, big agribusiness, and iranian nuclear weapons any other way.
You're always such a cheerful breath of fresh air, Paul. Even on the gloomiest days, you remind me again that life is worth living. POTD! (with apologies to Beer, wherever she may be)
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 11, 2015 20:27:27 GMT -5
I think this was sealed when Trump made himself the sole occupant of a position that 75% of Americans agree is prudent, wise, and long overdue. I think this week decided the Presidential race, because this week every media personality of note, every Republican, and every Democrat ran enthusiastically and loudly to take a position against three quarters of the voters, including 83% of blacks, and 87% of Hispanics, and 62% of likely Democrat voters. It is the dream of every candidate for office to be the clear choice, and for their to appear to be no alternative. orlando.suntimes.com/orl-politics-government/7/135/255829/gravis-poll-trump-still-leading-after-muslim-comments
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Dec 11, 2015 20:35:53 GMT -5
Yeah. I'm starting to get used to it. So now what?
Let/s agree to do something about his hair...which is all his.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Dec 11, 2015 22:34:56 GMT -5
What happens if the GOPe(interesting theory, BTW) emerges like you're saying though, Paul?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 11, 2015 22:35:05 GMT -5
I fully acknowledge that this is anecdotal, and I live in a conservative county anyway- but I am astonished by the open support for Trump in the black neighborhoods that had the Obama 2012 signs a few cycles ago. Fluke, or trend? Is Trump going to get the black vote?
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Dec 11, 2015 22:55:19 GMT -5
It's one of the coolest things I have ever seen. He really is speaking for a lot of people I know. They are sick of the status quo of acting like white people have never been slaves - there are people of all fucking races that are still slaves to this day. The majority of all people get it here in this country as far as I'm concerned. The old world FUCKING sucks and we need to get this shit straight so we can lead the free world the way it was meant to be done. All I know is that I have been saying for a while that a Trump/Jeb tickect isn't a bad looking one.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2015 23:32:13 GMT -5
The topic of Confirmation Bias came up in Psych this week. Son was like, this is so, so relevant right now.... Yes it is son, yes it is...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 12, 2015 0:19:54 GMT -5
It's one of the coolest things I have ever seen. He really is speaking for a lot of people I know. They are sick of the status quo of acting like white people have never been slaves - there are people of all fucking races that are still slaves to this day. The majority of all people get it here in this country as far as I'm concerned. The old world FUCKING sucks and we need to get this shit straight so we can lead the free world the way it was meant to be done. All I know is that I have been saying for a while that a Trump/Jeb tickect isn't a bad looking one. being sick of the status quo is not a good excuse for supporting bad ideas.
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fishy999
Familiar Member
Joined: Aug 9, 2015 20:40:43 GMT -5
Posts: 629
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Post by fishy999 on Dec 12, 2015 0:33:47 GMT -5
I fully acknowledge that this is anecdotal, and I live in a conservative county anyway- but I am astonished by the open support for Trump in the black neighborhoods that had the Obama 2012 signs a few cycles ago. Fluke, or trend? Is Trump going to get the black vote? Are you actually suggesting that black people might actually vote with their brains and not the color of their skin? Pretty funny considering the last arguments made about how they voted for Obama because he was black........
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