b2r
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Post by b2r on Nov 23, 2015 23:22:56 GMT -5
it is a very poor reading of history to think that torture had anything to do with finding Bin Laden. I think I'll take CIA Director Panetta's word over yours, TYVM.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 24, 2015 0:19:42 GMT -5
... Some member of a domestic terrorist organization decides to disrupt a Trump event: get him out of here. ... Note to Virgil Showlion : Remember our discussion on issue of what is terrorism? Here is a great example of why I believe we need a narrow definition.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 24, 2015 0:24:57 GMT -5
i can't control what they do, only how i respond to it. I can't personally control it, and the government-- even at its very best-- can't control or prevent every situation. What they can do, however, is make sure they at least don't make it worse-- and they can get out of our way in terms of arming ourselves and being ready. it has nothing to do with "situations", Paul. it has to do with attitudes, beliefs, and ultimately, actions. we can't control it. at. all. and yeah, that scares the shit out of us. and so, we can choose to do totally irrational things that make it worse, or act bravely.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 24, 2015 0:26:12 GMT -5
Trump is doubling down on a lie about 911 now. hopefully, it will have the same impact on his campaign that it did with Fiorina when she lied about things she "saw". this is from the blatantly left wing Mother Jones, posted because it is hilarious: It's hard to figure out what this episode says about Trump. Is he delusional? Is he merely unable to admit any error? (Trumpites and other conservatives often respond to accusations of GOP fabrications by noting that Hillary Clinton during the 2008 campaign told a false story about landing in Bosnia in 1996 and coming under sniper fire. At least, Clinton, after being called out on this, acknowledged she had committed a "mistake.") Or is Trump consciously making stuff up to play to nativist GOP voters? As two GOP strategists working against Trump noted in a recent memo, "Trump voters are exceedingly low-information voters. They do not read The Washington Post or Politico or even conservative blogs. They do not watch cable news rigorously." To put it less politely, Trump voters are susceptible to his BS that reinforces their own assumptions and biases.Paul's vaunted LIV's have changed sides, it would seem. note to the board: i want to verify that quote, because you have to admit, if true, it is pretty awesome.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 24, 2015 0:48:46 GMT -5
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Nov 24, 2015 2:41:55 GMT -5
Waterborading of al Libi led to him claiming Saddam and Bin Laden were connected. This false intel, since recanted, was what W used to lie us into the Iraq War. Now 5000 American heroes are dead and the Middle East is just what PNAC hoped for...a 100 year war. Many military lawyers and judicial officials (Republicans) resigned over this use of torture. The FBI says it doesn't really work as it leads victims to lie. Of course CIA officials like Panetta have always told the truth. In the meantime Trump is only 1 religion off: whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 24, 2015 5:33:26 GMT -5
... Some member of a domestic terrorist organization decides to disrupt a Trump event: get him out of here. ... Note to Virgil Showlion : Remember our discussion on issue of what is terrorism? Here is a great example of why I believe we need a narrow definition. Noted. But to be honest, if said organization showed up at a Trump event with machine guns a la Charlie Hebdo, I'd call them a domestic terrorist organization too.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Nov 24, 2015 8:23:55 GMT -5
Oh yeah, he is fun as a candidate. Alternately entertaining and infuriating depending on whether you take his shtick seriously or not. Gotta wonder about anyone who thinks he can legitimately govern in a world that faces what we do currently though. i am still trying to decide whether the pervasive fear plays out in his favor or not. i know that it tends to elevate authority. it is why Dr. A did so well in Iran. he could never have become leader without the threat from the West. will we choose MORE autocratic leaders like Trump, or fall back on more institutional candidates? i honestly don't know. it is the great mystery of 2016. Do you consider President Obama an autocratic leader in the last two years?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 24, 2015 11:47:18 GMT -5
i am still trying to decide whether the pervasive fear plays out in his favor or not. i know that it tends to elevate authority. it is why Dr. A did so well in Iran. he could never have become leader without the threat from the West. will we choose MORE autocratic leaders like Trump, or fall back on more institutional candidates? i honestly don't know. it is the great mystery of 2016. Do you consider President Obama an autocratic leader in the last two years? about as autocratic as Bush, and far less than Carter.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 24, 2015 12:39:44 GMT -5
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 24, 2015 15:17:05 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 24, 2015 15:22:46 GMT -5
Of course. Vaguely alluding to the thought of punching out Obama had to be worth 5 points, if not more.
yeah, he is a real man. it would be interesting to see how that contest played out. i am pretty sure that Obama has at least 6" on him.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 24, 2015 15:23:22 GMT -5
show me the birth certificate, Ted.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 24, 2015 15:39:29 GMT -5
show me the birth certificate, Ted. I like this one too.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 24, 2015 16:27:42 GMT -5
This thousands and thousands of people cheering in NJ stuff really bothers me. I do not remember that at all. I do remember some isolated folks in NYC cheering, but nowhere near thousands and thousands.
I guess Trump hates NJ.
Do the thousands all have to be in one place, or can it be an aggregate "thousands" across America on that dark day?
OK, there are 3M households in NJ, 104M in the US and 7.2M in NY
You, personally, recall 15 years later, and via the little bit of coverage that existed "some" folks in another state.
Is some 20? So 20 people made the news, in another state, on a story that was being squashed by the pc and flowers in the rifle barrel crowds?
If we just took 20 people that they SHOWED on the news and your recall.
and we proportion that across households in NY state (20 out of 7.2M) = 0.003%
0.003% of 330M people = 917 people.
I would actually argue it was far higher, as I think your incomplete memory and a VERY, VERY incomplete coverage would push this higher and comfortable into the thousands, if not really into the tens of thousands.
he SAID he SAW THOUSANDS. NOT ALL OVER, BUT IN NJ. ON TELEVISION. AND EVERYONE SAW IT. but yeah, that sounds like something Trump might say if he planned on covering his ass. he doesn't. and he is full of shit. he never saw anything of the kind.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 24, 2015 16:28:48 GMT -5
This thousands and thousands of people cheering in NJ stuff really bothers me. I do not remember that at all. I do remember some isolated folks in NYC cheering, but nowhere near thousands and thousands.
I guess Trump hates NJ.
Do the thousands all have to be in one place, or can it be an aggregate "thousands" across America on that dark day?
OK, there are 3M households in NJ, 104M in the US and 7.2M in NY
You, personally, recall 15 years later, and via the little bit of coverage that existed "some" folks in another state.
Is some 20? So 20 people made the news, in another state, on a story that was being squashed by the pc and flowers in the rifle barrel crowds?
If we just took 20 people that they SHOWED on the news and your recall.
and we proportion that across households in NY state (20 out of 7.2M) = 0.003%
0.003% of 330M people = 917 people.
I would actually argue it was far higher, as I think your incomplete memory and a VERY, VERY incomplete coverage would push this higher and comfortable into the thousands, if not really into the tens of thousands.
I very clearly remember the very short news video of Palestinians 'rejoicing' over the collapse of the World Trade Center. It stuck in my mind and still is stuck in my mind. I was glued to my TV for most of three days straight. I never, ever saw any video of people in NJ, NY or anywhere else in our country rejoicing. Never.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 24, 2015 16:32:34 GMT -5
Do the thousands all have to be in one place, or can it be an aggregate "thousands" across America on that dark day?
OK, there are 3M households in NJ, 104M in the US and 7.2M in NY
You, personally, recall 15 years later, and via the little bit of coverage that existed "some" folks in another state.
Is some 20? So 20 people made the news, in another state, on a story that was being squashed by the pc and flowers in the rifle barrel crowds?
If we just took 20 people that they SHOWED on the news and your recall.
and we proportion that across households in NY state (20 out of 7.2M) = 0.003%
0.003% of 330M people = 917 people.
I would actually argue it was far higher, as I think your incomplete memory and a VERY, VERY incomplete coverage would push this higher and comfortable into the thousands, if not really into the tens of thousands.
I very clearly remember the very short news video of Palestinians 'rejoicing' over the collapse of the World Trade Center. It stuck in my mind and still is stuck in my mind. I was glued to my TV for most of three days straight. I never, ever saw any video of people in NJ, NY or anywhere else in our country rejoicing. Never. that is because there were none. he made it up. this is his Carly Fiorina moment, and just like her, he is doubling down. may he share her fate.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 24, 2015 16:37:52 GMT -5
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 24, 2015 16:42:24 GMT -5
... After he said it, he was backed into a corner, by a bunch of pecking hens, making it impossible for him to offer a correction now that someone has refreshed his memory. Why was "it impossible for him to offer a correction"?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 24, 2015 16:44:42 GMT -5
I very clearly remember the very short news video of Palestinians 'rejoicing' over the collapse of the World Trade Center. It stuck in my mind and still is stuck in my mind. I was glued to my TV for most of three days straight. I never, ever saw any video of people in NJ, NY or anywhere else in our country rejoicing. Never. any reason "rejoicing" is in quotes? They seemed to pretty legitimately be celebrating the events at the time. you can see how far foreign aid and foreign entanglments get us.
To your other point, Opt, who is a flaming "non conservative", recalls seeing the coverage. call your own team a liar if you don't think she saw what she said she saw.
WRT to Trump, I think he's full of it too. I suspect he remembered the coverage in Palestine, and incorrectly catalogued that in his mind as a domestic scene (easy to do if you know how the brain works). After he said it, he was backed into a corner, by a bunch of pecking hens, making it impossible for him to offer a correction now that someone has refreshed his memory.
There is no other word than rejoicing. And it was my prerogative to put it quotes. It never happened. Never. Trump simply is a liar. The first time he could be forgiven for being mistaken. When you double down on the claim, you are just a lying idiot trying to fan the flames of religious bigotry.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 24, 2015 16:47:14 GMT -5
Why was "it impossible for him to offer a correction"? because the media would use this to end his candidacy. they want nothing, nothing more than another statist in place. Don't you mean the Republican party with the help of the press to end his candidacy?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 24, 2015 16:50:05 GMT -5
There is no other word than rejoicing. And it was my prerogative to put it quotes. It never happened. Never. Trump simply is a liar. The first time he could be forgiven for being mistaken. When you double down on the claim, you are just a lying idiot trying to fan the flames of religious bigotry. hold on a second there professor. Let's take your second sentence as fact and say I agree.
the first thing though is clearly trying to soften a FACT. there were thousand of people, shown on US TV, in Palestine, rejoicing (no quotes), our tragedy.
help Israel build the wall.
My second sentence is about my prerogative, professor. The only video I saw was about 4 seconds worth and in the middle of the video was a joyful Palestinian woman with glasses with a few people around her. As far as I ever saw, that is the only video.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 24, 2015 16:57:05 GMT -5
I very clearly remember the very short news video of Palestinians 'rejoicing' over the collapse of the World Trade Center. It stuck in my mind and still is stuck in my mind. I was glued to my TV for most of three days straight. I never, ever saw any video of people in NJ, NY or anywhere else in our country rejoicing. Never. any reason "rejoicing" is in quotes? They seemed to pretty legitimately be celebrating the events at the time. you can see how far foreign aid and foreign entanglments get us.
To your other point, Opt, who is a flaming "non conservative", recalls seeing the coverage. call your own team a liar if you don't think she saw what she said she saw.
WRT to Trump, I think he's full of it too. I suspect he remembered the coverage in Palestine, and incorrectly catalogued that in his mind as a domestic scene (easy to do if you know how the brain works). After he said it, he was backed into a corner, by a bunch of pecking hens, making it impossible for him to offer a correction now that someone has refreshed his memory.
Not true. It's never impossible to correct an error; especially, when the error was nothing more than something you said that wasn't correct. It's easy. You just come out and admit you were wrong.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 24, 2015 17:00:07 GMT -5
Carson admitted he was wrong after he to added he saw the same TV coverage in NJ as Trump. Trump simply cannot admit he is ever wrong.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 24, 2015 17:51:09 GMT -5
Carson admitted he was wrong after he to added he saw the same TV coverage in NJ as Trump. Trump simply cannot admit he is ever wrong. and carson's campaign is now over, thereby proving my point Well Trump's is pretty much over too just when is the question. Only his low information, die-hard fans will not admit he's simply full of crap.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Nov 24, 2015 17:58:48 GMT -5
Once again, if you want celebratory dancing in NJ while the towers fell, try this one:
whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 24, 2015 18:10:28 GMT -5
A DAY OF TERROR: THE ISRAELIS; Spilled Blood Is Seen as Bond That Draws 2 Nations Closer
JERUSALEM, Sept. 11— Israeli officials and most Palestinian leaders condemned the attack on the United States today. But Israelis also took cold comfort in concluding that Americans would now share more of their fears, while some Palestinians rejoiced at the same thought. There were declarations of sympathy for the victims from both Israelis and Palestinians, as well as anxious telephone calls to friends and relatives in the United States. But politics is never far behind any human reaction here. And each side in this conflict saw in today's attack confirmation of its view of the bond of the United States and Israel -- that the two nations fought, and now suffered, together. Most West Bank towns were quiet today. But in Nablus, big crowds of Palestinians marched in celebration, chanting ''Beloved bin Laden, strike Tel Aviv!'' Some waved the flag of the terrorist organization Hamas. ''Let the Americans know the meaning of death,'' one marcher said. A DAY OF TERROR: THE ISRAELIS; Spilled Blood Is Seen as Bond That Draws 2 Nations Closer
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 24, 2015 18:22:46 GMT -5
I was in Calgary when 9/11 hit and our nightly news showed cab drivers ululating and dancing in the street (i.e. rejoicing). Granted, there wasn't anywhere near thousands of them in the footage, but if it was the least bit representative of cab drivers overall, there easily could have been hundreds throughout the city.
If people are calling Mr. Trump out on "seeing" thousands rejoicing, I agree this is a lie unless he can procure footage otherwise.
If people are claiming that nobody in North Americans celebrated the attacks, I can testify otherwise.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 24, 2015 18:43:43 GMT -5
that is because there were none. he made it up. this is his Carly Fiorina moment, and just like her, he is doubling down. may he share her fate. sorry DJ, i know you like attacking republican candidates, despite the fact that you claim to be one.
is there anyone in the field you support, or are you just here pitching for Clinton? I can't recall a positive comment from you about any of the 300 people running the republican nomination
i don't like attacking anyone. even people i dislike. i loathe Clingon. she is a war horse. if there is a candidate i am less likely to vote for than her, i can't think of who it would be. i would sooner vote for Trump. i like Rand Paul. if he fails to get the nomination, i will vote third party again. i would like to think that someone will rise to the top that i can vote for, but the typical progression is that the vetting process exposes things i don't like.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2015 18:44:12 GMT -5
I was in Calgary when 9/11 hit and our nightly news showed cab drivers ululating and dancing in the street (i.e. rejoicing). Granted, there wasn't anywhere near thousands of them in the footage, but if it was the least bit representative of cab drivers overall, there easily could have been hundreds throughout the city. If people are calling Mr. Trump out on "seeing" thousands rejoicing, I agree this is a lie unless he can procure footage otherwise. If people are claiming that nobody in North Americans celebrated the attacks, I can testify otherwise. There you have it, virgil has confirmed what Trump said, what more is there to say?
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