let's talk about race issues

[zibazinski]

I assumed so as well but I feel I was wrong.

[Phoenix84]

Jul 13, 2015 11:54:44 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Jul 13, 2015 9:03:21 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

But then again, I could be wrong. I was certainly wrong about Clara. We have some posters that identify as being black, how do they feel? Do they want to be identified as black first then as people?

People, because I assume that's how we'd all like to be identified. And not people FIRST, just people. Please and thank you.

I agree, but often the "black community" is identified as separate from everyone else.

For example, after George Zimmerman, there was a lot of talk on the news about how the justice system "failed the black community."

The inference of course being blacks are in a separate community or group of their own. There really isn't a "white community" or even an "Asian" or "latino" community.

[billisonboard]

Jul 13, 2015 11:46:04 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

For some reason this just popped into my head.....Remember the movie "White men can't jump".....now imagine a movie "Black men can't ...."

Without a finish to the title of the second movie, it is difficult to determine what to "imagine". White men are stereotyped as not being able to jump. White people are stereotyped as not being able to dance. Let's face it, neither of these are terribly critical to modern survival. What would be a stereotype finish to, "Black men can't ..."? Please offer a word to finish it so we can discuss it.

[whoisjohngalt]

Jul 13, 2015 13:25:27 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jul 13, 2015 11:46:04 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

For some reason this just popped into my head.....Remember the movie "White men can't jump".....now imagine a movie "Black men can't ...."

Without a finish to the title of the second movie, it is difficult to determine what to "imagine". White men are stereotyped as not being able to jump. White people are stereotyped as not being able to dance. Let's face it, neither of these are terribly critical to modern survival. What would be a stereotype finish to, "Black men can't ..."? Please offer a word to finish it so we can discuss it.

 

[MJ2.0]

Jul 13, 2015 13:25:27 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jul 13, 2015 11:46:04 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

For some reason this just popped into my head.....Remember the movie "White men can't jump".....now imagine a movie "Black men can't ...."

Without a finish to the title of the second movie, it is difficult to determine what to "imagine". White men are stereotyped as not being able to jump. White people are stereotyped as not being able to dance. Let's face it, neither of these are terribly critical to modern survival. What would be a stereotype finish to, "Black men can't ..."? Please offer a word to finish it so we can discuss it.

Swim?

[weltschmerz]

Jul 12, 2015 21:01:20 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Back to the subject.
Spent the weekend camping.
Most lots in our campground are owned rather than rented. In our section of the campground, we have four black families out of about 140 sites in our section.
I know campgrounds may not be a normal social/economic group that represents all segments of the American culture, etc, so do not really know this is a good place to discuss it.
We have had a black family three lots down from us for years, and we know each other's family members by name, talk together, have shared picnics occasionally and so on.
I would not say we are close, other than we are camping neighbors. Actually their family is there probably only one weekend a month, so hard to keep up with, as every week campers wind up in their own cliques over time.
I only bring this up for anadotal reference.
I printed out the original message with some of the responses to take to camp to give the couple. They have three chlldren every week also, but we are now just a couple, so we lack that family familiarity.
I felt we knew them well enough to discuss this issue, although we had not discussed racial issues with them over the four years we have known them.
Saturday evening was raining so everyone was pretty well hunkered down over covered fire pits or covered decks. so I asked if we could discuss this issue.
They asked why would I bring it up at a campground. I explained my complentation with this issue and wanted a black point of view. We also said please take the evening to read it at your pleasure, and if they wanted to discuss it Sunday morning we could. If not, no problem.

Still drizzling this morning, and the couple came over on the deck to talk.

Basically they said they did feel similar thoughts as of the op, but did not want to go into detail just yet.
They are concerned it might upset the dynamics of the immediate campground group we all associate with. They said not all our white neighbors are as friendly as we might think.
I was told, to probably let it sit a week or two, and they might be welling to discuss the issue, but not openly within the campground, and please not to mention it to anyone in our immediate area as it might upset the neighborhood.

Here was the ignorant me. 
I had no idea that it might upset the dynamics of the campground. After all we all have at least the campground in common, but t looks like race still pops it's ugly head. 

I guess race discussion should not be out in the open at a campground with blacks.
Thinking about it tonight, maybe, sadly, they are correct.

How peculiar! Why on earth would you ask a random black family about it, that you're not even close to? Why not ask a black friend, or someone you ARE close to?

[MJ2.0]

Jul 13, 2015 13:11:10 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Jul 13, 2015 11:54:44 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

People, because I assume that's how we'd all like to be identified. And not people FIRST, just people. Please and thank you.

I agree, but often the "black community" is identified as separate from everyone else.

For example, after George Zimmerman, there was a lot of talk on the news about how the justice system "failed the black community."

The inference of course being blacks are in a separate community or group of their own. There really isn't a "white community" or even an "Asian" or "latino" community.

I see it as more of a subgroup within a larger group - not a separate group. And IMO the subgroup was identified because of actions against and treatment toward blacks that differed from the actions against and treatment toward whites and other races.

[MJ2.0]

And yes there most definitely is an Asian and Latino community.

[happyhoix]

Jul 13, 2015 13:11:10 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Jul 13, 2015 11:54:44 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

People, because I assume that's how we'd all like to be identified. And not people FIRST, just people. Please and thank you.

I agree, but often the "black community" is identified as separate from everyone else.

For example, after George Zimmerman, there was a lot of talk on the news about how the justice system "failed the black community."

The inference of course being blacks are in a separate community or group of their own. There really isn't a "white community" or even an "Asian" or "latino" community.

Sure there are white communities and Asian or latino communities.

There's been a ton of discussion about which Republican candidate will get the most votes from the latino community, for example. And think about how many times you've heard about 'white flight' when whites who could afford to move out of the cities moved to the suburbs. Or which candidates get the most white male voters.

My mom lives in a suburb of a large city that has a big Asian population, and there are a ton of stores and restaurants there that cater to the Asian community (I know because I can't read the signs LOL).

Businesses and politicians constantly think about these 'communities' of people and voters. Think about your own town, and which restaurants cater to whites and which to blacks. Doesn't mean whites can't eat at the black restaurants, and blacks can't eat at the white ones, but business owners often set up their establishments with a certain type of customer in mind - maybe it's a certain age group, or sex, or religion, or racial background.  

[MJ2.0]

Exactly . .. just because a group doesn't have an annoying, shit - stirring mouthpiece doesn't mean they don't exist.

[ArchietheDragon]

I am a very active member of the furry community.

[Deleted]

Jul 13, 2015 11:09:40 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

"wrong place-wrong time-wrong people to raise the subject"

Where is the correct time, place and people to discuss an issue of race?
It was the premise of the original op, that we, white people do not understand.
How are we to understand if we do not ask?

I know you were a former HR person, who probably does know better, but I was not.

Value Buy, I seriously doubt that you will be able to initiate a civilized, honest discussion about race issues in America with a random Black person that doesn't know anything about you. IMO, a conversation like that between 2 people requires a bit of trust that both people will be thoughtful and agree to disagree if necessary, without being intentionally offensive or acting a fool. It's certainly not a conversation I would have with somebody I don't know at all. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt period, but I'm more likely to assume the worst with a stranger. People I know and have some respect for, I put more effort into trying to clarify what they really said and why instead of just jumping to conclusions. But that's just me.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 13, 2015 13:25:27 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jul 13, 2015 11:46:04 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

For some reason this just popped into my head.....Remember the movie "White men can't jump".....now imagine a movie "Black men can't ...."

Without a finish to the title of the second movie, it is difficult to determine what to "imagine". White men are stereotyped as not being able to jump. White people are stereotyped as not being able to dance. Let's face it, neither of these are terribly critical to modern survival. What would be a stereotype finish to, "Black men can't ..."? Please offer a word to finish it so we can discuss it.

i have heard SWIM, before.  it's not true, but there is one for you.

[Value Buy]

Jul 13, 2015 11:50:42 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jul 13, 2015 11:09:40 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

"wrong place-wrong time-wrong people to raise the subject"

Where is the correct time, place and people to discuss an issue of race?
It was the premise of the original op, that we, white people do not understand.
How are we to understand if we do not ask?

I know you were a former HR person, who probably does know better, but I was not.

Instead of putting individuals on the spot and in awkward positions, why don;t you try and organize a discussion in your town and have it take place on neutral ground. If any interest is garnered, then in your advertising for this discussion, make note of the document you would like everyone to read beforehand (provide Internet information to download article) so everyone understands what is to be discussed during the session. Make sure you are up front on why you wish to have this discussion in your advertisement. It is you who wants to learn. So it is you who must put your cards on the table first. Don't expect black attendees to go first. They have no idea if your wish for a discussion is genuine or for some other reason which could be negative. Remember-none of these people know you. Probably best to find someone who knows how to facilitate this particular subject and type of discussion. I would not recommend you do it.

You will also need an equal amount of black and white people at this discussion for it to be meaningful. A room full of mostly white people and few black people (if any) is not going to go anywhere. You will have to make sure that all black and white attendees have good intentions in attending such an event. Failure to make that known ahead of time will doom any attempt at reconciling differences. How you go about ensuring the good intentions of all involved will rest upon your shoulders. You are the one who wants to learn.

My community is still at the point where, the discussion is "you must hire more black police officers and teachers, because it does not have "faces" matching all the ethnicities", Black, Asian, etc.

Does not matter the city and school system does not have many (no, I admit zero is not the number) civil rights complaints lodged against them. Every city does.

Our city, which is outside my legal jurisdiction by one block, is considered one of the top small size cities in the Midwest, for living and education standards.

The neighborhood organizations that are concerned with racial relations, is still in it's infancy, and since I do not live in the city limits, would not be considered for the group. One might if they were a professional, or University professor who has a history in race relations, but not Joe neighbor from the burbs.

The school system is in my jurisdiction since it contains the entire city and township population. We have no children in the system as we are retired, so, again, unless you are a professional  or have children in the system, you are pretty much out of the conversation. I suppose if I were a community organizer type, or even a former HR person who has a history in the field, maybe I could get on the committees, but I really do not have the proper background and know it.

As I previously posted, I had just listed the talking points with our camping neighbor couple, not the entire conversation.

There are things left off my  posted discussion here for private reasons.

Like you suggested having an equal number of blacks and whites, that was exactly that. Two couples. It really was not an awkward situation, imo, but that is between the couple and us. We asked them to think about it overnight, and give us an answer on the situation.

The next morning, over coffee and strawberries, they said, let them think about it.

Not a big deal. 

Or this is just the white guy (or couple) without the freaking clue covered in the op......

Just trying to get the ball rolling for me in the personal discussion of the issue for me.

[billisonboard]

Jul 13, 2015 14:01:04 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Jul 13, 2015 13:25:27 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Without a finish to the title of the second movie, it is difficult to determine what to "imagine". White men are stereotyped as not being able to jump. White people are stereotyped as not being able to dance. Let's face it, neither of these are terribly critical to modern survival. What would be a stereotype finish to, "Black men can't ..."? Please offer a word to finish it so we can discuss it.

Swim?

Love it. A historically all white male synchronized swim team attempts to integrate by inviting black males to join. I think it could be hilarious and well received. What do you think, whoisjohngalt?

[Tennesseer]

Jul 13, 2015 15:24:45 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Jul 13, 2015 11:50:42 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Instead of putting individuals on the spot and in awkward positions, why don;t you try and organize a discussion in your town and have it take place on neutral ground. If any interest is garnered, then in your advertising for this discussion, make note of the document you would like everyone to read beforehand (provide Internet information to download article) so everyone understands what is to be discussed during the session. Make sure you are up front on why you wish to have this discussion in your advertisement. It is you who wants to learn. So it is you who must put your cards on the table first. Don't expect black attendees to go first. They have no idea if your wish for a discussion is genuine or for some other reason which could be negative. Remember-none of these people know you. Probably best to find someone who knows how to facilitate this particular subject and type of discussion. I would not recommend you do it.

You will also need an equal amount of black and white people at this discussion for it to be meaningful. A room full of mostly white people and few black people (if any) is not going to go anywhere. You will have to make sure that all black and white attendees have good intentions in attending such an event. Failure to make that known ahead of time will doom any attempt at reconciling differences. How you go about ensuring the good intentions of all involved will rest upon your shoulders. You are the one who wants to learn.

My community is still at the point where, the discussion is "you must hire more black police officers and teachers, because it does not have "faces" matching all the ethnicities", Black, Asian, etc.

Does not matter the city and school system does not have many (no, I admit zero is not the number) civil rights complaints lodged against them. Every city does.

Our city, which is outside my legal jurisdiction by one block, is considered one of the top small size cities in the Midwest, for living and education standards.

The neighborhood organizations that are concerned with racial relations, is still in it's infancy, and since I do not live in the city limits, would not be considered for the group. One might if they were a professional, or University professor who has a history in race relations, but not Joe neighbor from the burbs.

The school system is in my jurisdiction since it contains the entire city and township population. We have no children in the system as we are retired, so, again, unless you are a professional  or have children in the system, you are pretty much out of the conversation. I suppose if I were a community organizer type, or even a former HR person who has a history in the field, maybe I could get on the committees, but I really do not have the proper background and know it.

As I previously posted, I had just listed the talking points with our camping neighbor couple, not the entire conversation.

There are things left off my  posted discussion here for private reasons.

Like you suggested having an equal number of blacks and whites, that was exactly that. Two couples. It really was not an awkward situation, imo, but that is between the couple and us. We asked them to think about it overnight, and give us an answer on the situation.

The next morning, over coffee and strawberries, they said, let them think about it.

Not a big deal. 

Or this is just the white guy (or couple) without the freaking clue covered in the op......

Just trying to get the ball rolling for me in the personal discussion of the issue for me.

Assuming the campground black man's wife thinks identically as her husband on race issues and assuming your wife thinks identically about race issues as you, do you think there are only two opinions in our country on race issues?

Keep in mind there are an awful lot of black people who don't go/cannot afford to go camping just as there are an awful lot of white people who don't go/cannot afford to go camping. They may have very different opinions about race related issues. You have only tried to have a conversation with one couple. That couple does not represent all black Americans just as you and yours doe not represent all white Americans.

I thought about it later and wonder if you could get a local black church and local white church to organize a set of discussions on race. Try something like that.

[Phoenix84]

Jul 13, 2015 14:24:54 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Jul 13, 2015 13:11:10 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

I agree, but often the "black community" is identified as separate from everyone else.

For example, after George Zimmerman, there was a lot of talk on the news about how the justice system "failed the black community."

The inference of course being blacks are in a separate community or group of their own. There really isn't a "white community" or even an "Asian" or "latino" community.

Sure there are white communities and Asian or latino communities.

There's been a ton of discussion about which Republican candidate will get the most votes from the latino community, for example. And think about how many times you've heard about 'white flight' when whites who could afford to move out of the cities moved to the suburbs. Or which candidates get the most white male voters.

My mom lives in a suburb of a large city that has a big Asian population, and there are a ton of stores and restaurants there that cater to the Asian community (I know because I can't read the signs LOL).

Businesses and politicians constantly think about these 'communities' of people and voters. Think about your own town, and which restaurants cater to whites and which to blacks. Doesn't mean whites can't eat at the black restaurants, and blacks can't eat at the white ones, but business owners often set up their establishments with a certain type of customer in mind - maybe it's a certain age group, or sex, or religion, or racial background.  

Yeah, businesses call them "target demographics."

For example, Target targets (no pun intended) the female 35 to 55 female demographic.  Does that mean they have "institutional" sexism against males?  Is it possible for a business or industry to be everything to everyone?  Interesting questions.  I don't really have the answers.

[Phoenix84]

Jul 13, 2015 14:24:06 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

And yes there most definitely is an Asian and Latino community.

But is there a "white community." And if so is it acceptable for a politician, business, or group to claim that they are trying to sell to or court votes from, the community?

[MJ2.0]

Jul 13, 2015 16:31:22 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Jul 13, 2015 14:24:06 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

And yes there most definitely is an Asian and Latino community.

But is there a "white community." And if so is it acceptable for a politician, business, or group to claim that they are trying to sell to or court votes from, the community?

White people are comprised of different ethnic backgrounds so I think it's a bit too large and heterogeneous to say "white community". I know there are lots of white subgroups that have gatherings and dedicated community activities - Greek, Russian, Middle Eastern, and Jewish/Hebrew.

[billisonboard]

Jul 13, 2015 16:52:59 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Jul 13, 2015 16:31:22 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

But is there a "white community." And if so is it acceptable for a politician, business, or group to claim that they are trying to sell to or court votes from, the community?

White people are comprised of different ethnic backgrounds so I think it's a bit too large and heterogeneous to say "white community". I know there are lots of white subgroups that have gatherings and dedicated community activities - Greek, Russian, Middle Eastern, and Jewish/Hebrew.

And those groups are certainly targeted.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 13, 2015 16:31:22 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Jul 13, 2015 14:24:06 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

And yes there most definitely is an Asian and Latino community.

But is there a "white community." And if so is it acceptable for a politician, business, or group to claim that they are trying to sell to or court votes from, the community?

Latinos are white.

[MJ2.0]

Jul 13, 2015 19:58:25 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 13, 2015 16:31:22 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

But is there a "white community." And if so is it acceptable for a politician, business, or group to claim that they are trying to sell to or court votes from, the community?

Latinos are white.

Don't tell them that!

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Jul 13, 2015 11:20:33 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jul 13, 2015 11:04:39 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Evidently you do not go camping a lot.
This is not a campground out in the boonies (other than being in the great state of Indiana) where you go to get away from it all, unless it is from relatives like thw Haitian has.

Evidently you do not know tact, timing, and common sense in front of people you don't really know.

So the author complains about AA being too concerned about white people's feelings to discuss race and your blasting VB for not being concerned enough about how AA might feel when discussing race issues?  I'm just curious because it seems like that is the reason the author was complaining about (although in his own biased way).

[Tennesseer]

Jul 13, 2015 21:49:39 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

Jul 13, 2015 11:20:33 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Evidently you do not know tact, timing, and common sense in front of people you don't really know.

So the author complains about AA being too concerned about white people's feelings to discuss race and your blasting VB for not being concerned enough about how AA might feel when discussing race issues?  I'm just curious because it seems like that is the reason the author was complaining about (although in his own biased way).

LOL. I am glad valuebuy is interested in the subject.  But I am not too sure he is going to get the information he is looking for based upon the way he is asking for it. 

I don't know about you, but I would not put a very casual acquaintance on the line by asking them to read the article and then ask them to report back to him their opinion of the piece. I would definitely not ask someone who was camping nearby me. Nothing says relaxing and getting away from it all (camping) by being asked to report back to a stranger their opinion of white people.   

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Jul 13, 2015 22:30:38 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jul 13, 2015 21:49:39 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

So the author complains about AA being too concerned about white people's feelings to discuss race and your blasting VB for not being concerned enough about how AA might feel when discussing race issues?  I'm just curious because it seems like that is the reason the author was complaining about (although in his own biased way).

LOL. I am glad valuebuy is interested in the subject.  But I am not too sure he is going to get the information he is looking for based upon the way he is asking for it. 

I don't know about you, but I would not put a very casual acquaintance on the line by asking them to read the article and then ask them to report back to him their opinion of the piece. I would definitely not ask someone who was camping nearby me. Nothing says relaxing and getting away from it all (camping) by being asked to report back to a stranger their opinion of white people.   

Fair enough

[happyhoix]

Jul 13, 2015 16:31:22 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Jul 13, 2015 14:24:06 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

And yes there most definitely is an Asian and Latino community.

But is there a "white community." And if so is it acceptable for a politician, business, or group to claim that they are trying to sell to or court votes from, the community?

Of course it is. You can cater to whatever community you want, as long as you don't denigrate or exclude someone from participating if they don't happen to be in that particular community.

Think about why Trump is getting so much flack right now. If he had simply appealed to his base - white male voters - he would have been no different than lots of other GOP candidates. However, he slammed the latinos and while that galvanized some of his white base, it alienated a lot of other voters.

Savannah GA has an Irish bar, a Scottish bar, and a British bar (I've been to all of them - often). They cater to mostly a white beer drinking crowd. However, they are glad to serve anyone who comes inside. There are latino and black customers who go there, too - maybe they like the big beer selection, maybe they like the scotch eggs, I don't know. As long as these bars serve them the same food in the same manner, at the same tables as the white customers, they are fine.

It's the same with businesses that cater to other racial groups. There is a great BBQ joint on MLK BLVD in our city, and it's always mostly black customers there when I go. But they are always happy to sell me BBQ too. Money is universally green.

[Phoenix84]

Jul 14, 2015 7:32:54 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Jul 13, 2015 16:31:22 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

But is there a "white community." And if so is it acceptable for a politician, business, or group to claim that they are trying to sell to or court votes from, the community?

Of course it is. You can cater to whatever community you want, as long as you don't denigrate or exclude someone from participating if they don't happen to be in that particular community.

Think about why Trump is getting so much flack right now. If he had simply appealed to his base - white male voters - he would have been no different than lots of other GOP candidates. However, he slammed the latinos and while that galvanized some of his white base, it alienated a lot of other voters.

Savannah GA has an Irish bar, a Scottish bar, and a British bar (I've been to all of them - often). They cater to mostly a white beer drinking crowd. However, they are glad to serve anyone who comes inside. There are latino and black customers who go there, too - maybe they like the big beer selection, maybe they like the scotch eggs, I don't know. As long as these bars serve them the same food in the same manner, at the same tables as the white customers, they are fine.

It's the same with businesses that cater to other racial groups. There is a great BBQ joint on MLK BLVD in our city, and it's always mostly black customers there when I go. But they are always happy to sell me BBQ too. Money is universally green.

Yes, that makes sense.  But the author is complaining about institutional racism, businesses not catering enough to black people, particularly the entertainment industry.  It appears he doesn't just want to be able to equally patronize businesses that cater to whites, he wants more businesses, institutions, and government agencies to cater to black people.

According to him, having the ability to equally patronize and spend your money isn't enough.

[Waffle]

Jul 13, 2015 13:11:10 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Jul 13, 2015 11:54:44 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

People, because I assume that's how we'd all like to be identified. And not people FIRST, just people. Please and thank you.

I agree, but often the "black community" is identified as separate from everyone else.

For example, after George Zimmerman, there was a lot of talk on the news about how the justice system "failed the black community."

The inference of course being blacks are in a separate community or group of their own. There really isn't a "white community" or even an "Asian" or "latino" community.

I have always hated the term "black community". To me it suggests that all blacks are alike in their thoughts, actions, preferences, etc. It simply isn't true.

[Waffle]

Jul 13, 2015 19:58:25 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 13, 2015 16:31:22 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

But is there a "white community." And if so is it acceptable for a politician, business, or group to claim that they are trying to sell to or court votes from, the community?

Latinos are white.

There are lot of brown skinned Latinos. Would you call them white?

[zibazinski]

Latinos are white? News to me.