Same sex marriage upheld!

[NastyWoman]

WOOHOO, can we just focus on the most important statement today from SCJ Alito today?  This is an aside from the real important gay marriage ruling which I'm very happy about 

But Alito said the California doesn't count.  Does this mean we are no longer a part of the US (I know he said we weren't part of the west, but my map does put this state firmly in the west)?  Don't they teach geography in NJ or is he suffering from some serious memory loss?  Do we in California need to reapply to join the Union or is this our chance to get out from under without risking a civil war?  Alternatively, if we do cause a civil war will we get the losers' spoils (ref: the mouse that roared)? 

These are important questions and this former hippie would like to know the answers   

[djAdvocate]

Jun 26, 2015 14:51:32 GMT -5 garion2003 said:

Jun 26, 2015 14:42:13 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Me too! They said it would never last.

We are about to reach our 32nd wedding anniversary . . . and the minister who refused to marry us because it is God's law that you cannot be "unequally yoked" and "marriage is forever in God's eyes" is now . . . . wait for it . . . . .

DIVORCED.

Not to derail the topic, but Jesus' teaching is pretty clear on divorce. I don't see any groups of Christians trying to pass laws to make divorce illegal in this country. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

There's a thinker.

i make this point all the time.  divorce destroys families, as well, so it goes against "family values".  conservatives have forked tongues. 

[steff]

#LoveWins

[weltschmerz]

Jun 26, 2015 15:03:33 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

WOOHOO, can we just focus on the most important statement today from SCJ Alito today?  This is an aside from the real important gay marriage ruling which I'm very happy about 

But Alito said the California doesn't count.  Does this mean we are no longer a part of the US (I know he said we weren't part of the west, but my map does put this state firmly in the west)?  Don't they teach geography in NJ or is he suffering from some serious memory loss?  Do we in California need to reapply to join the Union or is this our chance to get out from under without risking a civil war?  Alternatively, if we do cause a civil war will we get the losers' spoils (ref: the mouse that roared)? 

These are important questions and this former hippie would like to know the answers   

You could petition to join Canada. We'd hang out on your beaches and you can have all the fresh water you need. It's a match made in heaven. Hippies helping hippies.

[swamp]

Back in 1954 the Supreme Court decided Brown vs Board of Education where they stated black People should be afforded the same rights as whites.  Today, it seems a bit silly to think blacks should not be offered the same protection of laws. 

In 60 years I think that's where we will be with respect to gay rights. 

[NastyWoman]

Hippies helping hippies

No kidding -> still a peace loving group of people! Now if I could just get my creaking bones to party all night again

[Phoenix84]

I think I'll bookmark this thread. In a few years when there are cases in the courts for religious institutions to be forced to perform ssm and you're all passionately arguing for it and swearing up and down its not an encroachment of cf religious liberty, I'll point you to this thread.

[weltschmerz]

Jun 26, 2015 15:32:40 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

I think I'll bookmark this thread. In a few years when there are cases in the courts for religious institutions to be forced to perform ssm and you're all passionately arguing for it and swearing up and down its not an encroachment of cf religious liberty, I'll point you to this thread.

Knock yourself out.

[kittensaver]

Jun 26, 2015 15:39:06 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Jun 26, 2015 15:32:40 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

I think I'll bookmark this thread. In a few years when there are cases in the courts for religious institutions to be forced to perform ssm and you're all passionately arguing for it and swearing up and down its not an encroachment of cf religious liberty, I'll point you to this thread.

Knock yourself out.

Here's a second Knock Yourself Out.

I will defend any religion's right to keep their rituals and sacraments closed off to only Their Believers. And you can quote me!

What I will never defend is a religion trying to claim that a Civil Right (a marriage license) is really a religious ritual/sacrament and should be closed off to only those who are Their Believers.

Time will definitely tell . . . .

[grumpyhermit]

Jun 26, 2015 15:32:40 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

I think I'll bookmark this thread. In a few years when there are cases in the courts for religious institutions to be forced to perform ssm and you're all passionately arguing for it and swearing up and down its not an encroachment of cf religious liberty, I'll point you to this thread.

Please do, I think you will be unpleasantly surprised.

For as much as I am a total liberal, and atheist, I am also a firm believer in the 1st Amendment. I would never support any lawsuit, or law, that forced churches, or religious officiants, to perform marriages they didn't want to perform.

To be clear, I do not extend this to non-church, non-religious officials. If you work at a clerks office, and your job is to issue marriage licenses, do your damn job. Your job isn't to only issue licenses to only those you find 'worthy', and if you can't do your job, find a new one.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 26, 2015 15:32:40 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

I think I'll bookmark this thread. In a few years when there are cases in the courts for religious institutions to be forced to perform ssm and you're all passionately arguing for it and swearing up and down its not an encroachment of cf religious liberty, I'll point you to this thread.

i don't see religious freedom and gay marriage as related in any way whatsoever, so i don't think you are going to have much to show in a few years.

they question was never whether churches could "opt out" of gay marriage or not, but whether our SECULAR GOVERNMENT can do so.

it can't.

[weltschmerz]

I'm also a liberal and atheist, and think churches shouldn't be forced to do anything. (Well, except to pay taxes if they preach politics, as per the Johnson Amendment of 1954.)

Believe whatever you want, conduct yourself accordingly under the church roof, but leave it there when you go.

You can't refuse to sell cakes to SSM couples because it's a sin, then sell cakes to the morbidly obese, even though gluttony is also a sin.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Well, one judge in Alabama has found a way to not issue ss marriage license.  He's not issuing ANY marriage licenses. 

theweek.com/speedreads/563290/alabama-probate-judge-says-wont-issue-marriage-licenses-all-following-scotus-ruling

www.nytimes.com/live/supreme-court-rulings/in-alabama-one-county-exits-the-marriage-business/

[Tennesseer]

There will never be complete acceptance of same sex marriage if interracial marriage is any indicator.  I do believe though a higher percentage of Americans will eventually approve of same sex marriage than they will of interracial marriage.

Since 1959, Gallup has been polling America for their opinion on interracial marriage.  The last time the question was ask, 2013, 87% of Americans approved of interracial marriage.

Looking at the chart below, in 1965 and when SCOTUS ruled on Loving v. Virginia, maybe 13-14% of Americans approved of interracial marriage.   Through almost 50 years (2013 on the chart), the percentage of Americans who approved of interracial marriage slowly crept up to 87%.  Twenty years ago, less than 50% of Americans approved of interracial marriage.  


 

Source: In U.S., 87% Approve of Black-White Marriage, vs. 4% in 1958


Gallup starting polling Americans in 1996 regarding same sex marriage. The results of their first poll were 27% of Americans agreed same sex marriages should be recognized by the law as valid, while 68% said they should not. In less than 20 years, the numbers changed far more quickly than they did for interracial marriage. In May of 2015, 60% agreed same sex marriages should be recognized by the law as valid while 37% said they should not.



Source: Record-High 60% of Americans Support Same-Sex Marriage

The percentage of Americans approving and accepting same sex marriage will increase faster with the older generations dying off. I believe that will also be the case too for interracial marriage though either issue will ever have 100% approval.

[Tennesseer]

Jun 26, 2015 15:32:40 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

I think I'll bookmark this thread. In a few years when there are cases in the courts for religious institutions to be forced to perform ssm and you're all passionately arguing for it and swearing up and down its not an encroachment of cf religious liberty, I'll point you to this thread.

If you're the last one here, make sure you turn off the lights.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Tennesseer, I'm not going to correct my post on approval rating but thank you for the chart with links for stats. 

[Tennesseer]

Jun 26, 2015 15:59:49 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Well, one judge in Alabama has found a way to not issue ss marriage license.  He's not issuing ANY marriage licenses. 

theweek.com/speedreads/563290/alabama-probate-judge-says-wont-issue-marriage-licenses-all-following-scotus-ruling

www.nytimes.com/live/supreme-court-rulings/in-alabama-one-county-exits-the-marriage-business/

Well at least he is consistent.

[Tennesseer]

Jun 26, 2015 16:04:24 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Tennesseer, I'm not going to correct my post on approval rating but thank you for the chart with links for stats. 

No problem. You were definitely in the ballpark.

I like using the interracial Gallup poll for many comparisons on social issues.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Jun 26, 2015 16:05:15 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jun 26, 2015 15:59:49 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Well, one judge in Alabama has found a way to not issue ss marriage license.  He's not issuing ANY marriage licenses. 

theweek.com/speedreads/563290/alabama-probate-judge-says-wont-issue-marriage-licenses-all-following-scotus-ruling

www.nytimes.com/live/supreme-court-rulings/in-alabama-one-county-exits-the-marriage-business/

Well at least he is consistent.

Yeah, he stopped in Feb. 

[midjd]

The fact that 13% of people are still opposed to interracial marriage makes me very sad.

[weltschmerz]

If you're going to refuse to issue ANY marriages licences, then it's OK. You're not discriminating against any one group.

[weltschmerz]

Churches are not public accommodations or businesses. They are religious institutions. They are -- therefore -- exempt from all sorts of federal laws. Racist churches, for example, cannot be forced to obey discrimination laws (and don't). Sexist churches (most of them; along with Mosques and Synagogues) cannot be forced to ordain and/or employ females (and they don't). Anti-science private schools (and churches) cannot be forced to teach the truth about science and evolution (and they don't).

Of course, none of this matters. NEVER make the fatal mistake of believing that zealots care about facts. Their arguments are always emotional. Always. They never withstand the scrutiny of facts and logic.

To defend his claim, people like Matt Walsh refer to the infamous Massachusetts church whose PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS were almost forced to host a gay wedding reception. But we find out all of these things are lies: Debunking The Four Most Commonly Cited Anti-Equality Horror Stories

www.quora.com/Will-marriage-equality-force-churches-to-perform-marriages-for-gay-couples

[garion2003]

Texas is quick to respond as well- claiming it would violate the religious liberty of the clerks issuing licenses.

As I once heard someone say: "Your rights stop where mine begin".

I'm really tired of so called Christians claiming they are persecuted. When you get thrown to lions, talk to me. Until then, shut up.

[Tennesseer]

Jun 26, 2015 16:07:48 GMT -5 midjd said:

The fact that 13% of people are still opposed to interracial marriage makes me very sad.

For example:

Interracial Marriage: Many Deep South Republican Voters Believe Interracial Marriage Should Be Illegal

Despite the fact that the number of interracial marriages in the U.S. reached an all-time high this year, there are many who still believe that mixed-race marriage is unacceptable and should be made illegal, according to a new report.

On Monday, polling firm Public Policy Polling (PPP) revealed that 29 percent of likely GOP voters surveyed in Mississippi believe that interracial marriage should be illegal. Fifty-four percent said intermarriage should remain legal, and the rest responded that they weren't sure. The survey also found that 21 percent of likely GOP voters polled in Alabama believe that interracial marriage should be illegal.

Although the Supreme Court declared anti-miscegenation laws unconstitutional more than four decades ago in 1967, Alabama kept a state-level law on the books until 2000. Many mixed-race couples in the Deep South are still struggling to feel safe and be accepted in their communities.

Interracial Marriage: Many Deep South Republican Voters Believe Interracial Marriage Should Be Illegal

[weltschmerz]

Huckabee and Santorum Sign On with Minister Who Wants To Set Himself on Fire Over LGBT Rights

In a field of Republican Presidential hopefuls, most of whom have publicly stated their anti-LGBT biases, Mike Huckabee and Rick Santorum are doing their best to show that they hate and fear the gay community the most.

They both have signed on to a pledge penned by the evangelical Texas minister who has threatened to set himself on fire if marriage equality becomes the law of the land. The pledge, entitled “Pledge in Solidarity to Defend Marriage,” seems to go out of it’s way to misrepresent everything from the writings of Martin Luther King, Jr. to the writings in the Bible.

reverbpress.com/politics/huckabee-santorum-sign-minister-wants-set-fire-lgbt-rights/

Anyone have a match?

[MJ2.0]

Everyone should have the same right to be miserable.

[haapai]

Jun 26, 2015 15:32:40 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

I think I'll bookmark this thread. In a few years when there are cases in the courts for religious institutions to be forced to perform ssm and you're all passionately arguing for it and swearing up and down its not an encroachment of cf religious liberty, I'll point you to this thread.

See you next year.  This ruling is gonna sprout religious freedom statutes like amanitas.  The court will probably be dealing with one of them next term.

[Deleted]

Jun 26, 2015 14:15:45 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

This is also an issue of states rights, and the ability of the citizens to decide what the definition of marriage is.

Government issues marriage licenses. Government grants privileges and benefits based upon contraction into the institution.

[Deleted]

Jun 26, 2015 14:44:03 GMT -5 garion2003 said:

Jun 26, 2015 14:17:51 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

I think I read somewhere that support for same sex marriage in the US is around 70% in favor. 

And I bet the percentage is even higher if you looked at just people under, say, 60 (or 50, whatever).

People over 50... and Virgil

[djAdvocate]

Jun 26, 2015 16:02:56 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jun 26, 2015 15:32:40 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

I think I'll bookmark this thread. In a few years when there are cases in the courts for religious institutions to be forced to perform ssm and you're all passionately arguing for it and swearing up and down its not an encroachment of cf religious liberty, I'll point you to this thread.

If you're the last one here, make sure you turn off the lights.

i wish i had thought of that.