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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 29, 2015 21:03:28 GMT -5
Is it possible for churches and people who support gay marriage to live in harmony? I see a lot of bashing on churches and wonder why that's any different than gay marriage. In other words, if I can say "gay marriage doesn't effect me so knock yourselves out," why can't other folks say "these people going to church doesn't effect me so knock yourselves out." i don't see much bashing of churches. so, i guess it really is a matter of perspective.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 29, 2015 21:06:34 GMT -5
Because the people against gay marriage want to bar gays from getting married. The people that don't believe in other people's religion don't want to bar them from participating in a religion they believe in. Is that a correlation with people who go to church? In other words, everybody who goes to church wants to bar gay marriage, and everybody who doesn't go to church supports gay marriage? i would say it is far more likely that those that want to ban gay marriage go to church, and that those who don't go to church generally support gay marriage. but you will note the differences in those two positions. one proposes that we ban something, and the other chooses not to participate.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 21:09:15 GMT -5
Because the people against gay marriage want to bar gays from getting married. The people that don't believe in other people's religion don't want to bar them from participating in a religion they believe in. Is that a correlation with people who go to church? In other words, everybody who goes to church wants to bar gay marriage, and everybody who doesn't go to church supports gay marriage? No. Because not all people that go to church are against gay marriage (heck, some denominations accept and will perform gay marriage now). ETA: and for the record I don't know the religious preference of everyone that doesn't support it... so there could be some Atheists and Agnostics who are opposed to it... but generally Atheists and Agnostics have a "do whatever floats your boat" attitude when it comes to things that don't affect them.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 29, 2015 21:18:04 GMT -5
Is it possible for churches and people who support gay marriage to live in harmony? I see a lot of bashing on churches and wonder why that's any different than gay marriage. In other words, if I can say "gay marriage doesn't effect me so knock yourselves out," why can't other folks say "these people going to church doesn't effect me so knock yourselves out." Of course. I live in a very conservative and very religious area. Most everyone I know goes to church. Some of them support gay marriage. Some of them don't. Of those who don't go to church the same is true. We all seem to manage to get along just fine. As to bashing of churches, like djAdvocate I haven't seen that.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 29, 2015 21:27:23 GMT -5
Of course. I live in a very conservative and very religious area. Most everyone I know goes to church. Some of them support gay marriage. Some of them don't. Of those who don't go to church the same is true. We all seem to manage to get along just fine. As to bashing of churches, like djAdvocate I haven't seen that. Here's an entire list of films which fall into that category:
Religious bashing films
Ahh. I see what you're saying. I thought you meant there had been bashing of churches here on the board and I hadn't seen that. My mistake. ETA: I went through the films shown in your link. The only one I'd seen was The Name of the Rose. While it's been many years since I've seen it, I don't recall thinking of it as a film that bashed religion. Perhaps, it's more in the perception of the viewer. As I remember it, it was more about the travails of living and trying to do it right.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 29, 2015 21:31:01 GMT -5
Ahh. I see what you're saying. I thought you meant there had been bashing of churches here on the board and I hadn't seen that. My mistake. ditto. that was totally unclear. but i am also not sure that films that take a humorous or well intentioned stab at religion are the same as bashing. then again, i am not really sure where the line is drawn between "stern critique" and bashing. i think, in my own mind, it is when the critique is utterly without merit. i could use one of these films as an example, but i don't want to divert the discussion.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 29, 2015 21:32:37 GMT -5
let me give you an example, for illustration purposes ONLY.
let's say there was a film out there that documented the abuses of the KKK. would that be KKK bashing?
i am not trying to be a DlCK here. i am just wondering where the lines are drawn.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 29, 2015 21:42:19 GMT -5
let me give you an example, for illustration purposes ONLY. let's say there was a film out there that documented the abuses of the KKK. would that be KKK bashing? i am not trying to be a DlCK here. i am just wondering where the lines are drawn. Hee, hee, hee! Fooled ya! The DICK is back! We can now indulge in spotted dick any time we wish!
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 29, 2015 21:47:19 GMT -5
let me give you an example, for illustration purposes ONLY. let's say there was a film out there that documented the abuses of the KKK. would that be KKK bashing? i am not trying to be a DlCK here. i am just wondering where the lines are drawn. Hee, hee, hee! Fooled ya! The DICK is back! We can now indulge in spotted dick any time we wish! more dick forever!
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 29, 2015 22:12:19 GMT -5
I'm not expecting a huge increase in taxes and if a church is truly spending everything the bring in than losing their tax exempt status won't be an issue, they'll have no income to tax. But I think there's something wrong with a church not paying taxes but builds a multi-million dollar church. Or builds a 20+ story office building but runs out of money part way through and just leaves it there because it's not like they're paying property taxes on it. And regardless I still don't see how a church having to pay taxes keeps you from practicing your beliefs. That will be the first step in the war against religion, the removal of tax exempt status from churches.
step two will be the challenging of churches renting public venues for church meetings and events.
Step three will be fines and possible jail time for refusing to perform same sex weddings.
all because we can't violate "civil rights."
Well, sure. We've had SSM for quite a while now. Our jails are plumb full to bursting with priests and pastors. We're building more prisons for the overflow.
AGAIN.......priests can refuse to marry anyone they want. AGAIN...my church refused to marry me because I was marrying a Jewish fellow. AGAIN....a priest can refuse to marry a Catholic to Buddhist. Nobody is going to jail. Perhaps you're confusing them with priests who diddle little kids.? Those priests ARE in jail, and there are quite a few of them
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 29, 2015 22:24:37 GMT -5
Of course. I live in a very conservative and very religious area. Most everyone I know goes to church. Some of them support gay marriage. Some of them don't. Of those who don't go to church the same is true. We all seem to manage to get along just fine. As to bashing of churches, like djAdvocate I haven't seen that. Here's an entire list of films which fall into that category:
Religious bashing films
I looked at your list of religion bashing films parts one and two. Some are movies, others are documentaries. One was directed by Mel Gibson who produced Passion of the Christ. I am not too sure what to make of your list when The Wizard of Oz is considered religion bashing. The documentary, Jonestown: The Life and Death of the Peoples Temple, is religion bashing? If a film was ever needed to be made about religion and leadership gone wrong, it would be about Jonestown.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 29, 2015 22:28:31 GMT -5
I looked at your list of religion bashing films parts one and two. Some are movies, others are documentaries. One was directed by Mel Gibson who produced Passion of the Christ. I am not too sure what to make of your list when The Wizard of Oz is considered religion bashing. The documentary, Jonestown: The Life and Death of the Peoples Temple, is religion bashing? If a film was ever needed to be made about religion and leadership gone wrong, it would be about Jonestown. Must have missed The Wizard of Oz. I, too, have trouble seeing that as religion bashing.
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 29, 2015 22:30:13 GMT -5
Is it possible for churches and people who support gay marriage to live in harmony? I see a lot of bashing on churches and wonder why that's any different than gay marriage. In other words, if I can say "gay marriage doesn't effect me so knock yourselves out," why can't other folks say "these people going to church doesn't effect me so knock yourselves out." I don't give a crap who goes to church. I don't care if people want to pray until their knees bleed. It doesn't affect me, so yes, knock yourselves out! However, when they bring their mythology to the political and legal arenas it becomes a very different matter. For example, Quebec finally legalized medical euthanasia. The churchgoers are having a hissy fit and demanding that the law be repealed. Evidently, their god doesn't like it. I should suffer in excruciating pain because a god which doesn't exist, a god I don't believe in, doesn't approve? Screw that.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 29, 2015 22:35:49 GMT -5
Ratchets - I have two questions for you: 1. Do you believe it is an insult to Allah for artists to draw cartoons or other pictures of him? 2. Should we take care not to insult Muslims by posting drawings and pictures of Allah?
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 29, 2015 22:43:31 GMT -5
I looked at your list of religion bashing films parts one and two. Some are movies, others are documentaries. One was directed by Mel Gibson who produced Passion of the Christ. I am not too sure what to make of your list when The Wizard of Oz is considered religion bashing. The documentary, Jonestown: The Life and Death of the Peoples Temple, is religion bashing? If a film was ever needed to be made about religion and leadership gone wrong, it would be about Jonestown. Must have missed The Wizard of Oz. I, too, have trouble seeing that as religion bashing. ....and the Wicker Man? Seriously? It was about a sun-worshipping cult and human sacrifices. The fact that a heavenly angel bathed in light didn't swoop in and save the hero means it's a religion-bashing film? How odd. I guess you think Joan of Arc was also a religion-bashing film, because they did end up burning her at the stake, and God didn't save her, either.
That list is really grasping at the proverbial straws.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 29, 2015 22:45:04 GMT -5
I looked at your list of religion bashing films parts one and two. Some are movies, others are documentaries. One was directed by Mel Gibson who produced Passion of the Christ. I am not too sure what to make of your list when The Wizard of Oz is considered religion bashing. The documentary, Jonestown: The Life and Death of the Peoples Temple, is religion bashing? If a film was ever needed to be made about religion and leadership gone wrong, it would be about Jonestown. that last film, in particular, attempted to draw a distinction between cult and religion. i would think that would be a SERVICE to religion.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 29, 2015 22:46:19 GMT -5
I looked at your list of religion bashing films parts one and two. Some are movies, others are documentaries. One was directed by Mel Gibson who produced Passion of the Christ. I am not too sure what to make of your list when The Wizard of Oz is considered religion bashing. The documentary, Jonestown: The Life and Death of the Peoples Temple, is religion bashing? If a film was ever needed to be made about religion and leadership gone wrong, it would be about Jonestown. that last film, in particular, attempted to draw a distinction between cult and religion. i would think that would be a SERVICE to religion. Apparently not.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 29, 2015 22:46:22 GMT -5
I looked at your list of religion bashing films parts one and two. Some are movies, others are documentaries. One was directed by Mel Gibson who produced Passion of the Christ. I am not too sure what to make of your list when The Wizard of Oz is considered religion bashing. The documentary, Jonestown: The Life and Death of the Peoples Temple, is religion bashing? If a film was ever needed to be made about religion and leadership gone wrong, it would be about Jonestown. Must have missed The Wizard of Oz. I, too, have trouble seeing that as religion bashing. people on the left are routinely mocked for political correctness. this list shows how far the right is willing to go to balance the scales.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 29, 2015 22:47:05 GMT -5
Ratchets - I have two questions for you: 1. Do you believe it is an insult to Allah for artists to draw cartoons or other pictures of him? 2. Should we take care not to insult Muslims by posting drawings and pictures of Allah? you are very good at cutting to the heart of the matter, TN.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 29, 2015 22:48:20 GMT -5
Must have missed The Wizard of Oz. I, too, have trouble seeing that as religion bashing. people on the left are routinely mocked for political correctness. this list shows how far the right is willing to go to balance the scales. Keep in mind it is one blogger's opinion of those movies. But still.
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 29, 2015 22:50:51 GMT -5
Lol! Whoever wrote that list can't possibly be taken seriously. Not with gems like this.
"Synopsis: Bad Dreams tells the story of Cynthia, a young woman who’s spent most of her life sleeping in a comma." How do they know she wasn't sleeping in an exclamation mark or a semicolon?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 30, 2015 0:09:06 GMT -5
Oh, I agree some of those films are stretching pretty far. But some are blatently obvious. I watched Religulous - or at least five minutes of it - and the premise I saw was asking people if they were Christians (or perhaps any religion) and then engaging in "gotcha" questions about that religion.
Interviewer: Are you religious? Random person: Yes, I'm proud to be a Christian! Interviewer: Do you know what <random Biblical figure> means in <random Biblical verse>? Person: No, not really. I'd have to look it up. Interviewer: Well it means <insert whatever>. You see folks, this is an idiot! They're following a religion and don't even know what this person means in this verse! Do yooooouuuu want to be an idiot like them?
It's ok to not be religious. I'm not religious and my wife is, and we've gotten along fine about it for 22 years. The part where he ran into trouble was when he started playing 'gotcha" games...and then went on to say pretty awful things about the people he "got." But I'm sure there is a segment of the population which just eats that sort of thing up. And that brings me back to my original question -
My family is the same, Ratchets. Some of us are religious and some aren't. We don't have any problems with it. We just make room for different points of view. Religion almost never comes up in conversation. I think there are some people who just like a fight, or to put someone else down. I also think are there some people who like to play victim/martyr. It's really rather silly if you ask me.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 30, 2015 0:18:48 GMT -5
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 30, 2015 3:12:28 GMT -5
My point is that some folks who throw the word intolerance around so easily, are just as much or more so themselves. Not pointing fingers at anyone. And what does this have to do with movies?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 30, 2015 7:11:13 GMT -5
Ratchets - I have two questions for you: 1. Do you believe it is an insult to Allah for artists to draw cartoons or other pictures of him? 2. Should we take care not to insult Muslims by posting drawings and pictures of Allah? 1. I don't want to speak to what Allah finds offensive, because I don't know. I'm sure it's offensive to Muslims though, if it's making fun of their beliefs.
2. Muslims aren't special in this regard. We should take care not to insult all categories of people. That's a problem that is much more far-reaching than Muslims.
My question in return: Do you think Muslims approve of gay marriage?
The very vast majority of Muslims today believe whether it is a serious or comical depiction, all potrayals of Allah are an insult to Allah and their religion. And just like God gave His words to man for the Bible, so did Allah give man His words for the Koran. So we know what Allah finds offensive. And you are right-we should be careful not to insult any category or class of people. Flippant comments are often quite insulting.. Some Muslims approve of gay marriage. According to this April 2015 survey, American Muslims approve of same sex marriage at a greater percentage than white evangelical Protestants. PRRI: US Muslims More Supportive of Same-Sex Marriage than White Evangelical ChristiansAs the poll did not ask the question to Muslims outside of the U.S. I have no idea. But you could ask straight and gay Muslims in other countries their personal opinion of same sex marriage. I am pretty sure you would find some Muslims supporting same sex marriage.
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Post by swamp on Jun 30, 2015 7:55:24 GMT -5
Oh, I agree some of those films are stretching pretty far. But some are blatently obvious. I watched Religulous - or at least five minutes of it - and the premise I saw was asking people if they were Christians (or perhaps any religion) and then engaging in "gotcha" questions about that religion.
Interviewer: Are you religious? Random person: Yes, I'm proud to be a Christian! Interviewer: Do you know what <random Biblical figure> means in <random Biblical verse>? Person: No, not really. I'd have to look it up. Interviewer: Well it means <insert whatever>. You see folks, this is an idiot! They're following a religion and don't even know what this person means in this verse! Do yooooouuuu want to be an idiot like them?
It's ok to not be religious. I'm not religious and my wife is, and we've gotten along fine about it for 22 years. The part where he ran into trouble was when he started playing 'gotcha" games...and then went on to say pretty awful things about the people he "got." But I'm sure there is a segment of the population which just eats that sort of thing up. And that brings me back to my original question -
So this one guy in this movie is an asshole. I'm not seeing that as a societal attack on religion.
There is a South Park episode about the sex abuse scandal in the Catholic church. The cardinals gather together to discuss how to stop the sexually abused kids from talking about it. One cardinal questions why are we asking the kids to shut up when we should be asking the priests to stop molesting the kids. While some would see it as an attack, I see it as relevant social commentary.
Bad things happen in some churches. Publicizing it isn't religion bashing. Just like remaking on a certain church's charitable program is not a support of religion in general.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 30, 2015 8:48:50 GMT -5
yes. i think this is called "false equivalency" in logic circles. the harm of losing your privilege is nothing compared to the harm of losing your job, or your standing, or in extreme cases, your life.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 8:58:58 GMT -5
When I see the title of a movie is "God is not dead"... I can make a choice about whether I want to go see it. I would guess seeing a movie is named "Religulous" would give you the same indication of bias upon which to make a decision.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 30, 2015 9:01:12 GMT -5
Look, this decision will have ramifications for religious liberty. In 1983, Bob Jones University, a fundamentalist Christian School, lost it's tax exempt status because their policy banning inter racial marriage and dating. This issue was also on the minds of the justices when listening to the case, and the lawyer arguing on behalf of gay marriage, Solicitor General Donald Verrilli, even acknowledged this is going to be an issue going forward.
www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/26/how-a-supreme-court-decision-for-gay-marriage-would-affect-religious-institutions/
This isn't theoretical people, this is going to be a major source of contention going forward. Are you going to support religious freedom? It's something we'll all have to ask ourselves soon enough. i contend this has nothing to do with religious freedom. i also contend that, given time, everyone will see that.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 30, 2015 9:03:56 GMT -5
I'm not expecting a huge increase in taxes and if a church is truly spending everything the bring in than losing their tax exempt status won't be an issue, they'll have no income to tax. But I think there's something wrong with a church not paying taxes but builds a multi-million dollar church. Or builds a 20+ story office building but runs out of money part way through and just leaves it there because it's not like they're paying property taxes on it. And regardless I still don't see how a church having to pay taxes keeps you from practicing your beliefs. That will be the first step in the war against religion, the removal of tax exempt status from churches.
step two will be the challenging of churches renting public venues for church meetings and events.
Step three will be fines and possible jail time for refusing to perform same sex weddings.
all because we can't violate "civil rights."
a perfect illustration of how closely related ignorance and fear are. /\ edit: i am POSITIVE that this won't blow up into a religious freedom issue, unless the religious community effectively boycotts gays from marrying, somehow (which i don't see happening. in states that have ruled in favor of gay marriage, gays seem perfectly happy getting married under ANY circumstances, and having it recognized by the state).
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