Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 16, 2015 11:18:10 GMT -5
.....because you can't disagree with the majority without it turning into an all-out attack.
It's disturbing to say the least. This is just a message board but is it the same in real-life? One can't disagree with the majority here without the regulars staging an all-out attack on the ones who refuse to bow to popular opion. Here on the message board, it's the shutting down of a thread. What happens in real life? Physical attacks? Imprisonment? Executions? I hate the term "slippery slope" but if it ever applied, it applies here.
Don't get me wrong. I don't blame Moon for shutting down the Jenner thread. It was going nowhere fast and needed to be shut down. But why is that? Why can't highly intelligent people debate without attacking one another? Do people not understand that freedom of speech also applies to those who don't agree with them? Do people not understand that by trying to shush the minority, you are perpetuating the injustices you claim to be fighting against?
And don't give me that "you can disagree but not be mean" shit either. All a person has to say around here is that they don't agree with the majority and suddenly they are "ignorant", "hateful", "do not understand" and other crap like that. It makes absolutely NO difference how one disagrees....just that they disagree.
It's worrisome to me that we have become a society of bullies thinking they take a higher road than the "bullies" they are supposedly standing against.
Ah well....love it or leave it, eh?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 16, 2015 11:21:44 GMT -5
Great minds and all.....
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jun 16, 2015 11:26:37 GMT -5
Well said. When it comes to that, I don't see a point in discussing much of anything--if you can even call it a discussion. Maybe a lecture.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 16, 2015 11:27:52 GMT -5
I'll have to go read the Jenner thread, or at least, the new pages. Why do threads get shut down? Often because it can not stay civil. I know Virgil was trying to be the minority POV as am I when discussing mental health issues. I don't see anyone coming to my defense when, my not so popular way of looking at things isla called all sort of things, similar to the Jenner thread. Misinformed, ignorant, not aware of science... WTE? I've been there. I think this is considered different because perhaps in this instance some posters see where Virgil is coming from and are ignoring he wasn't perfect and measured in his discourse either. IMO it has nothing to do with popular or unpopular opinion. Its when a thread has gone retrograde.
In real life intelligent people disagree, blow up and stop talking. While we are on a message board seeking hopefully to understand, we are also on a message board because we seek to have our POV heard. FWIW.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 16, 2015 11:49:52 GMT -5
I'll have to go read the Jenner thread, or at least, the new pages. Why do threads get shut down? Often because it can not stay civil. I know Virgil was trying to be the minority POV as am I when discussing mental health issues. I don't see anyone coming to my defense when, my not so popular way of looking at things isla called all sort of things, similar to the Jenner thread. Misinformed, ignorant, not aware of science... WTE? I've been there. I think this is considered different because perhaps in this instance some posters see where Virgil is coming from and are ignoring he wasn't perfect and measured in his discourse either. IMO it has nothing to do with popular or unpopular opinion. Its when a thread has gone retrograde.
In real life intelligent people disagree, blow up and stop talking. While we are on a message board seeking hopefully to understand, we are also on a message board because we seek to have our POV heard. FWIW.
First of all, I'm not coming to anyone's defense. It's simply an observation of the way hot-topic threads work around here. As far as your stance on mental health issues....I can't say....this isn't about you. It's a general observation. As to the rest of that first paragraph, I honestly have no idea what you are saying. Totally agree that in real life, people blow up and stop talking. That's an individual choice. Here, we stop talking because we are forced to stop talking. Understandably. People somehow think their behavior is somehow better or "deserved" because they are fighting what they see as injustice. It's not. In fact, adding hypocrisy to the mix actually makes it worse.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Jun 16, 2015 11:54:00 GMT -5
On the contrary....not all of us have labeled dissenters as ignorant or hateful. And FWIW, many of us are more than willing to defend a person's right to say what they want, even if we don't like it. As someone who has spent years in the news media, the right to free and unimpeded speech matters.
And yes, you can disagree and not be mean about it. I've done it. Even on an anonymous message board. It happens. It just takes a little more work: the ability to choose words and use the right phrasing, plus statistics to back up what you say. Of course, some people will be offended/angry/defensive, no matter what you do. OK, they may be coming from a place in life I don't understand. Or they may just like the contrarian's POV. Whatever.
In the big picture of life, this is a message board, run for us on a volunteer basis, with a CoC. Which we all tacitly agreed to when we started posting. We don't have to like the setup, and can certainly either go elsewhere or start our own board, but if we stay, we understand that 1) there are acceptable parameters when it comes to posting, and 2) some people just won't get #1.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 16, 2015 11:57:14 GMT -5
On the contrary....not all of us have labeled dissenters as ignorant or hateful. And FWIW, many of us are more than willing to defend a person's right to say what they want, even if we don't like it. As someone who has spent years in the news media, the right to free and unimpeded speech matters. And yes, you can disagree and not be mean about it. I've done it. Even on an anonymous message board. It happens. It just takes a little more work: the ability to choose words and use the right phrasing, plus statistics to back up what you say. Of course, some people will be offended/angry/defensive, no matter what you do. OK, they may be coming from a place in life I don't understand. Or they may just like the contrarian's POV. Whatever. In the big picture of life, this is a message board, run for us on a volunteer basis, with a CoC. Which we all tacitly agreed to when we started posting. We don't have to like the setup, and can certainly either go elsewhere or start our own board, but if we stay, we understand that 1) there are acceptable parameters when it comes to posting, and 2) some people just won't get #1. You are absolutely right. I did not mean to include everyone and when I said "regulars" I didn't mean regular posters but rather the regular fit-pitchers. I know we can leave if we want. That wasn't the point. It was about more than just a message board.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 16, 2015 12:00:38 GMT -5
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 16, 2015 12:02:49 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 12:03:31 GMT -5
Did anyone tell you what to think MJ?
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Jun 16, 2015 12:04:47 GMT -5
I disagree. Why did the thread need to be shut down? Were people disagreeing, yes, they were, but for the most part they were disagreeing with the assertions that were being posted as "fact", and the methodology. The fact that the thread was going nowhere fast shouldn't be a factor in shutting it down - if people want to talk in circles, and beat dead horses, why does that matter? If you don't find it engaging, pick another thread.
The "attacks" didn't really start until certain posters decided to use decidedly pejorative language in relation to the subject matter of the thread. People are still human, if you insult them, or people they love, they are going to get annoyed and fight back. It is more than a little dishonest to stroll into a thread which you know is a serious subject, glibly throw out insults, and then act surprised when more than a few people object.
It's not shit. Its the core of the problem, and if you don't get that...well...you don't get it. I can disagree with someone all day long, and as long as they are respectful about it, we can have a discussion, hell even a heated debate about the topic. If they start getting nasty, and throwing out disparaging stereotypes around to "make their case" I am pretty much done.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jun 16, 2015 12:07:15 GMT -5
On the contrary....not all of us have labeled dissenters as ignorant or hateful. And FWIW, many of us are more than willing to defend a person's right to say what they want, even if we don't like it. As someone who has spent years in the news media, the right to free and unimpeded speech matters. And yes, you can disagree and not be mean about it. I've done it. Even on an anonymous message board. It happens. It just takes a little more work: the ability to choose words and use the right phrasing, plus statistics to back up what you say. Of course, some people will be offended/angry/defensive, no matter what you do. OK, they may be coming from a place in life I don't understand. Or they may just like the contrarian's POV. Whatever. In the big picture of life, this is a message board, run for us on a volunteer basis, with a CoC. Which we all tacitly agreed to when we started posting. We don't have to like the setup, and can certainly either go elsewhere or start our own board, but if we stay, we understand that 1) there are acceptable parameters when it comes to posting, and 2) some people just won't get #1. I agree with what you say. For the record, I think locking the thread was a good call. It was going nowhere. I think what GEL is getting at, and certainly what I'm lamenting, is that we're not having good discussions. It seemed to me that a few posters (on both sides) really wanted to have a civil, honest discussion, but it was drowned out.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 16, 2015 12:08:26 GMT -5
I didn't say that very well. What I mean to say was that, of course, one can disagree and not be mean. That statement was meant to say that EVEN when people disagree and aren't mean about it - for example, saying "I disagree" - they still get jumped all over and called haters and ignorant, etc. It doesn't matter what you say or how you say it. If you don't agree, you are in for it. I'm not expressing myself very well.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 16, 2015 12:12:14 GMT -5
Did anyone tell you what to think MJ? not outright but it became clear that anything that wasn't completely supportive of the majority opinion was not welcome.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Jun 16, 2015 12:14:12 GMT -5
Well I think that partly goes with the territory. When you are on opposite sides of a subject that a lot of people have strong convictions over, you are going to get a more heated response. It becomes very personal. I don't necessarily agree with it, I am more of the mindset that you can't really change peoples core beliefs - but I do understand the urge to "convince" the other side who you do firmly believe to be either "wrong" or simply "uninformed".
At the end of the day this is a discussion board, if we all just sat back when we disagreed with someone and said "I hear your opinion, but I disagree with it" and called it a day, it would be mighty boring. I think we can do that without devolving into personal attacks, but once they start, it can be hard to come back to a civil discussion.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 16, 2015 12:16:31 GMT -5
Sroo.......you get me.......you really get me! I'm blaming sinus meds for my lack of clarity, but you are fighting right though them!
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 16, 2015 12:19:07 GMT -5
I disagree.
Not to call out a specific poster, but in #893 of the Jenner thread, someone began a post by saying the transgender issue was "unsettling." Nary a flame or name-call to be had.
I do think that there are certain posters who ARE jumped all over for a simple "I disagree" -- but it's not because of their opinion, but because of their arguments (and the way they go about these arguments) in other threads.
Posters who are generally respectful of others' views and try to avoid loaded, pejorative language or intellectual dishonesty don't seem to draw many reports, even on controversial topics.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 16, 2015 12:19:41 GMT -5
Well I think that partly goes with the territory. When you are on opposite sides of a subject that a lot of people have strong convictions over, you are going to get a more heated response. It becomes very personal. I don't necessarily agree with it, I am more of the mindset that you can't really change peoples core beliefs - but I do understand the urge to "convince" the other side who you do firmly believe to be either "wrong" or simply "uninformed". right, that's a discussion. I pride myself in being able to see multiple sides of an issue, even if I'm only advocating for one. I felt like many people didn't even attempt to see it a different way. It was just like, "nope, you're wrong, and this is why. Not going to bother giving your words more than a millisecond of consideration. NEXT!" That is not how you have a discussion.
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Blonde Granny
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Post by Blonde Granny on Jun 16, 2015 12:23:01 GMT -5
I can only speak for me, but threads like the Jenner topic wears me out. Reading page after page in an attempt to catch whether or not someone has insulted another person. Is the "f" word used properly according to the CoC, reporting posts to get opinions of other mods who perhaps haven't read the offending post(s). And a topic drones on and on page after page.
Again, only speaking for me, I try hard to be fair, polite and considerate of everyone who posts here. If someone reports a post, no matter how trivial the complaint may be, I take it seriously and many times ask for input from other mods. In the meantime, oh wait, a topic just was posted in the wrong forum...hurry and rescue it and get it where it belongs, while in the 33 page thread someone has just been insulted.
I'm only posting my thoughts so some of you might understand that we're doing our best. Sometimes it's like herding cats around here, but we try.
I'm grateful for the opportunity to serve this community and look forward to each day when I have the chance to read so many different posts and topics. Thanks for listening to this old Granny put in her $.02 worth.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled opinions.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 16, 2015 12:27:56 GMT -5
I can only speak for me, but threads like the Jenner topic wears me out. Reading page after page in an attempt to catch whether or not someone has insulted another person. Is the "f" word used properly according to the CoC, reporting posts to get opinions of other mods who perhaps haven't read the offending post(s). And a topic drones on and on page after page.
Again, only speaking for me, I try hard to be fair, polite and considerate of everyone who posts here. If someone reports a post, no matter how trivial the complaint may be, I take it seriously and many times ask for input from other mods. In the meantime, oh wait, a topic just was posted in the wrong forum...hurry and rescue it and get it where it belongs, while in the 33 page thread someone has just been insulted.
I'm only posting my thoughts so some of you might understand that we're doing our best. Sometimes it's like herding cats around here, but we try.
I'm grateful for the opportunity to serve this community and look forward to each day when I have the chance to read so many different posts and topics. Thanks for listening to this old Granny put in her $.02 worth.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled opinions. I think the mods do an awesome job. I wasn't criticizing the decision to shut that thread down and, in fact, stated I agreed with it for whatever that is worth. Again...this is about more than just a message board.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Jun 16, 2015 12:33:08 GMT -5
No, it isn't. But nuance is hard - and as a society we are definitely not being encouraged to think in terms of gray. Not saying that it's right - but it also doesn't surprise me. I'm not sure I always try to see the other side, some issues for me are just...core, and you aren't going to shift (or at least not easily), but I do try to remain respectful. Even if I think that someone is a total wingnut, what is there to be gained by saying it? In my head I might be thinking they are a total f*%$#ing moron - but on the surface I do try to keep it civil.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 16, 2015 12:34:35 GMT -5
I disagree. Not to call out a specific poster, but in #893 of the Jenner thread, someone began a post by saying the transgender issue was "unsettling." Nary a flame or name-call to be had. I do think that there are certain posters who ARE jumped all over for a simple "I disagree" -- but it's not because of their opinion, but because of their arguments (and the way they go about these arguments) in other threads. Posters who are generally respectful of others' views and try to avoid loaded, pejorative language or intellectual dishonesty don't seem to draw many reports, even on controversial topics. You are certainly welcome to disagree. I don't change my assertion that is the way it works, tho. I don't go back to threads to quote things as I don't intend to waste what little time I have here on that. In a thread (and it may have been the Jenner thread - not sure), someone opined "disagreement" with something - nothing more than that - just disagreement. It was almost immediately implied that they were uneducated. Obviously, I would know nothing about who gets reported and who doesn't. I'm not basing my opinion on anything but what I read and I know that someone else could see the same thing and read it differently.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 16, 2015 12:42:57 GMT -5
There's a difference between freedom of speech and blatantly misrepresenting others opinions and using mod powers on your posts and other people's posts to make your own position look better after you've been called out on it. I don't think many would dispute that.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Jun 16, 2015 12:47:46 GMT -5
Honestly, I think it started in politics, was encouraged by media, and has infiltrated the way people interact socially on the Internet. When I first started college was when I first met people who honestly believed that if you didn't believe what they believed, you were part of the vast liberal conspiracy. That was in 1995, so 20 years ago. It hasn't gotten better. In politics, I think hate and outright for the other disdain side of the aisle has become an accepted practice, and it is terrible. We're ALL Americans we should be able to disagree without being disagreeable, and find common ground. Unfortunately, too many people will nod their head at my last sentence, and then return to hating people who believe differently than they do. I think the extremists on both sides are driving too much of the discourse in politics, and it seeps over into normal life, too. JMO, feel free to disagree
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 12:48:30 GMT -5
.....because you can't disagree with the majority without it turning into an all-out attack. It's disturbing to say the least. This is just a message board but is it the same in real-life? One can't disagree with the majority here without the regulars staging an all-out attack on the ones who refuse to bow to popular opion. Here on the message board, it's the shutting down of a thread. What happens in real life? Physical attacks? Imprisonment? Executions? I hate the term "slippery slope" but if it ever applied, it applies here. Don't get me wrong. I don't blame Moon for shutting down the Jenner thread. It was going nowhere fast and needed to be shut down. But why is that? Why can't highly intelligent people debate without attacking one another? Do people not understand that freedom of speech also applies to those who don't agree with them? Do people not understand that by trying to shush the minority, you are perpetuating the injustices you claim to be fighting against? And don't give me that "you can disagree but not be mean" shit either. All a person has to say around here is that they don't agree with the majority and suddenly they are "ignorant", "hateful", "do not understand" and other crap like that. It makes absolutely NO difference how one disagrees....just that they disagree. It's worrisome to me that we have become a society of bullies thinking they take a higher road than the "bullies" they are supposedly standing against. Ah well....love it or leave it, eh? So the thread that was shut down was people politely disagreeing? How is shutting down a thread where people get nasty a bad thing?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 16, 2015 13:00:55 GMT -5
.....because you can't disagree with the majority without it turning into an all-out attack. It's disturbing to say the least. This is just a message board but is it the same in real-life? One can't disagree with the majority here without the regulars staging an all-out attack on the ones who refuse to bow to popular opion. Here on the message board, it's the shutting down of a thread. What happens in real life? Physical attacks? Imprisonment? Executions? I hate the term "slippery slope" but if it ever applied, it applies here. Don't get me wrong. I don't blame Moon for shutting down the Jenner thread. It was going nowhere fast and needed to be shut down. But why is that? Why can't highly intelligent people debate without attacking one another? Do people not understand that freedom of speech also applies to those who don't agree with them? Do people not understand that by trying to shush the minority, you are perpetuating the injustices you claim to be fighting against? And don't give me that "you can disagree but not be mean" shit either. All a person has to say around here is that they don't agree with the majority and suddenly they are "ignorant", "hateful", "do not understand" and other crap like that. It makes absolutely NO difference how one disagrees....just that they disagree. It's worrisome to me that we have become a society of bullies thinking they take a higher road than the "bullies" they are supposedly standing against. Ah well....love it or leave it, eh? So the thread that was shut down was people politely disagreeing? How is shutting down a thread where people get nasty a bad thing? Please see the bolded part of my post.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 13:26:03 GMT -5
How is there a grey area when being pro choice = baby killer. When believing in marriage equality = wanting to destroy the very fabric of civilized life. Etc.
It was 'the majority' that went black and white. Heck. 'The majority' on that thread was a group of vastly different individuals with diverse belief systems and backgrounds. Not some homogenous mass.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jun 16, 2015 13:38:37 GMT -5
I confess to finding how well that thread went, for the most part, before it got shut down. I also feel respect to posters and their opinions should go both ways.
And I admire those of you who have the tenacity to keep talking about the same topic and express your feelings in that many pages without going insane or getting banned. I'm learning to appreciate my short atten... oh, butterfly! <<runs off>>
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 13:41:19 GMT -5
Being in the minority is never an easy path.
Being different is an even more difficult path.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 16, 2015 14:08:25 GMT -5
Regarding certain suspect revisions, I think it would be wrong to assume the public is aware of even a tenth of what went on behind the scenes to motivate them. It could be the public is critically underinformed on the matter, and perhaps they might not hasten to judgment. Regarding polite discourse: I think it would be wrong to assume that posters only rarely conflate "expressing opinions politely and respectfully" with "expressing opinions conditionally, ambivalently, noncommittally, euphemistically, and phrased in the passive voice". Indeed we might consider that for some posters, "polite and respectful discourse" (as it applies to one's ideological opponents) carries the implicit requirement for soft equivocal language, a willingness to expressly acknowledge the merit (even just a bit) of opposing arguments, and "wiggle words" such as "I believe that...", "It seems to me that...", "It might possibly be right to assume that..." that clearly emphasize the writer's passivity and unwillingness to commit. Failure to present one's arguments in a way that satisfies all of these requirements might lead such posters to erroneously perceive hostility, prompting them to "retaliate" in hostile fashion. Just some theoretical food for thought.
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