Striking Teachers

[Deleted]

www.komonews.com/news/local/4000-Seattle-area-teachers-skip-school-rally-for-smaller-classes-304292401.html

Teachers are getting their first raises in years, so they should be happy? NO!! It is the overcrowded classrooms, schools, and lack of books/supplies that they are striking about!

Our state is not properly funding education and lost a recent lawsuit brought against them on that point. They still don't fund to level they are required. This is a wealthy state. I don't get why the legislature doesn't get their sh*t together and fund as they are mandated. 

Makes me want to go into politics to figure out what the heck is going on. How much money is being burned on boondoggles while kids sit in High Schools that have 100 computers for a population of 2,800? The school DD teaches at is seriously underfunded (Title 1 school) and is in a poor area.  Just burns me how much money this state has & they don't direct it where it should be going.

[Shooby]

Run for School Board.

[Shooby]

There is a big problem in PA, where the State has dumped the PSERS contribution ( retirement system) into the laps of PA schools and now we have to figure out how to fund that.

[Deleted]

May 22, 2015 12:51:30 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Run for School Board.

I don't see how being on a School Board helps when the problem is at the legislative level? The legislature under-funds the schools, so they are just left swinging in the wind.

Although if I did have School Board control, I'd probably fire every Guidance Counselor in the system. Haven't found a useful one yet. Not sure why they are there. They all seem to hate kids, so very odd career choice!!!

[ArchietheDragon]

May 22, 2015 12:56:10 GMT -5 @rockit said:

May 22, 2015 12:51:30 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Run for School Board.

I don't see how being on a School Board helps when the problem is at the legislative level? The legislature under-funds the schools, so they are just left swinging in the wind.

Although if I did have School Board control, I'd probably fire every Guidance Counselor in the system. Haven't found a useful one yet. Not sure why they are there. They all seem to hate kids, so very odd career choice!!!

Run for the legislature. 

[Deleted]

ArchietheDragon That's what I'm thinking. Those punks vote their own compensation, $168K/year, and just voted themselves 11% raises. They also get additional pay if they don't do their work on time and session gets extended. What?? How about you behave like every salaried employee and if you don't finish on time, no extra pay for extra time. Might incent them to get their stuff done during normal session.

[The Captain]

May 22, 2015 12:50:35 GMT -5 @rockit said:

www.komonews.com/news/local/4000-Seattle-area-teachers-skip-school-rally-for-smaller-classes-304292401.html

Teachers are getting their first raises in years, so they should be happy? NO!! It is the overcrowded classrooms, schools, and lack of books/supplies that they are striking about!

Our state is not properly funding education and lost a recent lawsuit brought against them on that point. They still don't fund to level they are required. This is a wealthy state. I don't get why the legislature doesn't get their sh*t together and fund as they are mandated. 

Makes me want to go into politics to figure out what the heck is going on. How much money is being burned on boondoggles while kids sit in High Schools that have 100 computers for a population of 2,800? The school DD teaches at is seriously underfunded (Title 1 school) and is in a poor area.  Just burns me how much money this state has & they don't direct it where it should be going.

The article provided almost no real data so I tried to do a little research on my own:

www.trulia.com/school-district/WA-King_County/Seattle_Public_Schools/

The class sizes listed here don't seem all that bad to me, actually - they look pretty good (DD's class was from 28-32 kids in grades K-5).  Where she is at now the average class size is 28 kids.  That's much higher than the bulk of the schools listed here.

Can't speak to the book or supply issue but I can say we are given a supply list that we have the buy at the beginning of the year.  Yea the books DD brings home look pretty beat up but I don't think math or science has changed all that much in the past 5-6 years?

The computers seem a bit of an issue, but does your DD know that schools can apply for grants to get funding for extra equipment?  Maybe it works differently in every state but DD's school has a few labs funded by grants by various foundations.

As far as the school being in a poor area - if a certain percentage of the student enrollment is below the poverty line the school actually gets additional federal funding as you've acknowledged by saying the school has title 1 status.  What is the spending per pupil? 

Hmm found something here:

www.washingtonpolicy.org/publications/facts/key-facts-about-seattle-public-schools

Seems like the restrictive work rules put in by the teacher's union is actually causing more harm than good.  There are more staff in the district than actual teachers.  Now how can that be good for the kids?

The spending per pupil is not that far off from DD's new district, which is in the top 20 state wide. 

More money is not always the answer.

I honestly don't see crowding and underfunding as an issue here?

[souldoubt]

I commend anyone who wants to run for school board/legislature seats but like American politics in general there's so much waste and corruption going on in some districts it's saddening.  About a year ago some reporters from a smaller paper wrote the following article:

www.presstelegram.com/social-affairs/20140208/centinela-valley-schools-chief-amassed-663000-in-compensation-in-2013

Cliff notes - superintendent of a small district struggling financially made 663K in 2013.  The fringe benefits in the article should make any taxpayer cringe and my favorite is probably allowing him to "purchase air time of up to 5 years" which increases his pension.  Firefighters have been accused of similar tactics by saving up and cashing out all their PTO in their final years which impacts their pension calculation.  The result was major public backlash and a pulitzer for the writers.  Before anyone talks about raises that come on the backs of taxpayers they should be reducing the waste but obviously that's easier said than done.     

[Deleted]

May 22, 2015 13:09:21 GMT -5 The Captain said:

May 22, 2015 12:50:35 GMT -5 @rockit said:

www.komonews.com/news/local/4000-Seattle-area-teachers-skip-school-rally-for-smaller-classes-304292401.html

Teachers are getting their first raises in years, so they should be happy? NO!! It is the overcrowded classrooms, schools, and lack of books/supplies that they are striking about!

Our state is not properly funding education and lost a recent lawsuit brought against them on that point. They still don't fund to level they are required. This is a wealthy state. I don't get why the legislature doesn't get their sh*t together and fund as they are mandated. 

Makes me want to go into politics to figure out what the heck is going on. How much money is being burned on boondoggles while kids sit in High Schools that have 100 computers for a population of 2,800? The school DD teaches at is seriously underfunded (Title 1 school) and is in a poor area.  Just burns me how much money this state has & they don't direct it where it should be going.

www.washingtonpolicy.org/publications/facts/key-facts-about-seattle-public-schools

Seems like the restrictive work rules put in by the teacher's union is actually causing more harm than good.  There are more staff in the district than actual teachers.  Now how can that be good for the kids?

Extra staff can be very good for the kids.  It depends on what that staff is doing.  For example, are these teacher aides?  They allow for more individualization of instruction at a cheaper price than hiring additional full-time teachers.  Sometimes special education aides shadow a single student all day. 

Plus, non-teaching "staff" probably includes everyone from the custodial staff to the bookkeeper to the school nurse to the lunchroom workers to the bus drivers and so on.

You'd have to be more specific about how this causing more harm than good.  How is the extra staff the result of restrictive work rules?  Did I read the articles too quickly?

[8 Bit WWBG]

I cringe when I think about where we will be 10 years from now.  If the articles and YM posts about the state of education are to be believed, we are on a fast slide to the bottom of the heap!  Clearly, the schools need to sell more popcorn and candy bars!

I have, however, seen teachers look for inexpensive sources of books to be able to provide for their classrooms.

[The Captain]

May 22, 2015 13:19:24 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

May 22, 2015 13:09:21 GMT -5 The Captain said:

www.washingtonpolicy.org/publications/facts/key-facts-about-seattle-public-schools

Seems like the restrictive work rules put in by the teacher's union is actually causing more harm than good.  There are more staff in the district than actual teachers.  Now how can that be good for the kids?

Extra staff can be very good for the kids.  It depends on what that staff is doing.  For example, are these teacher aides?  They allow for more individualization of instruction at a cheaper price than hiring additional full-time teachers.  Sometimes special education aides shadow a single student all day. 

Plus, non-teaching "staff" probably includes everyone from the custodial staff to the bookkeeper to the school nurse to the lunchroom workers to the bus drivers and so on.

You'd have to be more specific about how this causing more harm than good.

In DD's old school there were 14 teachers and 3 administrators. I will concede that was a private school but the teacher to admin ratio was >4:1.

In DD's current school district there are 166 teachers and 56 admin (I'm counting ELL aids and specialized resources as teaching and social workers and technology support specialists as admin) making the teacher to admin ratio >3:1

I can't imaging how having more "support personal" than actual teachers is going to improve how well the kids learn. 

Seriously?  There has to be more than one none teacher to support every teacher?  That's just plain flipping nuts!

[8 Bit WWBG]

If I get the chance, I'm going to ask to see some of my friends' kids' homework.  I'm curious what they are doing, reading, writing...  Yeah there are surely some subjects that its like "hot damn... I didn't do this until 2 years later".  There are others where its like "seriously...?  You haven't done that yet?"  But I also live in an area with excellent schools overall.  Not everyone is as fortunate.

[t-dog]

8 Bit WWBG - my 6th grader just finished a section of geometry. I didn't have geometry in terms of finding volumes and surface area until 8th grade. He is now doing statistics which I did in High School. We are shoving so much down to earlier grades that the kids haven't mastered the basics before diving into the more advanced. It just leaves most of them frustrated and hating school.

[giramomma]

May 22, 2015 13:35:02 GMT -5 The Captain said:

In DD's old school there were 14 teachers and 3 administrators. I will concede that was a private school but the teacher to admin ratio was >4:1.

In DD's current school district there are 166 teachers and 56 admin (I'm counting ELL aids and specialized resources as teaching and social workers and technology support specialists as admin) making the teacher to admin ratio >3:1

I can't imaging how having more "support personal" than actual teachers is going to improve how well the kids learn. 

Seriously?  There has to be more than one none teacher to support every teacher?  That's just plain flipping nuts!

At our neighborhood elementary school, there are are more support personnel than there are teachers, actually. There's OT, nurses, ELL aids, reading resources, several different behavioral support staff, social workers, etc. That doesn't even include office ladies or custodial staff.  They even have family support workers -NOT the same as social workers- that help the parents get to drs appointments, job interviews, etc.

It's still a super poor performing school, like less than 3 points away from being a failing school.

And, yet the city's superintendent says "Oh, all our schools are performing fine."

[Deleted]

May 22, 2015 13:35:02 GMT -5 The Captain said:

In DD's current school district there are 166 teachers and 56 admin (I'm counting ELL aids and specialized resources as teaching and social workers and technology support specialists as admin) making the teacher to admin ratio >3:1

I can't imaging how having more "support personal" than actual teachers is going to improve how well the kids learn. 

Seriously?  There has to be more than one none teacher to support every teacher?  That's just plain flipping nuts!

DD has 28-32 students in her class. She does not have any aides, but the SPED teachers that pull kids out of class would be considered support.  She also has a recovery class (students that failed graduation mandatory classes & have to retake) that are smaller, more like 16 students. In total about 150 students for her subject area. 

She & another teacher are going to learn grant writing to get technology, but the district then has to support it (that is where the problem is). The district is going to do elementary grades for technology first, so there will be many years of high-schoolers coming out of her district with very little computer experience. I was appalled when I learned they didn't have much exposure to technology. Her & the other teacher have to get hired on with the district before they can do the grant requests, they are currently year to year & not continuous teachers.

She is in an impoverished area, so I assume it is a Title 1 school, but I don't know for sure. You would think with more than 50% of students eligible for free lunch that it should be one.

I have provided a bunch of materials to her classes for items the kids don't have: notebooks, dividers, paper, spirals, pens, flash drives.

I haven't looked at the site you linked, so I will do that. Need to check if it is actual funding or the funding the state is supposed to do. The state is not funding per law or per class-size mandates. 

[Tiny]

May 22, 2015 12:50:35 GMT -5 @rockit said:

www.komonews.com/news/local/4000-Seattle-area-teachers-skip-school-rally-for-smaller-classes-304292401.html

Teachers are getting their first raises in years, so they should be happy? NO!! It is the overcrowded classrooms, schools, and lack of books/supplies that they are striking about!

Our state is not properly funding education and lost a recent lawsuit brought against them on that point. They still don't fund to level they are required. This is a wealthy state. I don't get why the legislature doesn't get their sh*t together and fund as they are mandated. 

Makes me want to go into politics to figure out what the heck is going on. How much money is being burned on boondoggles while kids sit in High Schools that have 100 computers for a population of 2,800? The school DD teaches at is seriously underfunded (Title 1 school) and is in a poor area.  Just burns me how much money this state has & they don't direct it where it should be going.

They sound like amatuers....   

They need to look at the way the teachers unions do things in Illinois...      Teachers/politicians/the union spent decades mastering the art of what looks like 'corruption' to me...   but amazingly enough the teacher's union/politicians/Teachers themselves all seem to have an amazing Teflon Coating.   Probably because they cry "We're underpaid and overworked" every chance they get.  

my.chicagotribune.com/#section/544/article/p2p-83604235/


FWIW:  the article is about the high paid administrators but it's no secret that for decades (and it still happens) many well liked teachers would have miracluous jumps in pay in the 5 years leading up to their retirement.   It was NOT uncommon for a teachers pay to double in the years leading up to their retirement.  So, they paid less into the pension but got more out of it.

[tskeeter]

May 22, 2015 13:04:45 GMT -5 @rockit said:

ArchietheDragon That's what I'm thinking. Those punks vote their own compensation, $168K/year, and just voted themselves 11% raises. They also get additional pay if they don't do their work on time and session gets extended. What?? How about you behave like every salaried employee and if you don't finish on time, no extra pay for extra time. Might incent them to get their stuff done during normal session.

This is what NV does.  There is a scheduled legislative session.  If you're not done by the scheduled end of the session, you don't get paid any more.  You work for free.  Only the Governor can extend the legislative session so that legislators get additional pay.  Hasn't been done in the nearly 10 years I've been in NV.  Funny how that incents legislators to get the job done and go home.  There is wailing about not having enough time every session.  But when it comes down to the pay getting cut off, somehow the legislature manages to get the important things done and they don't have to work for free.

[tskeeter]

May 22, 2015 16:51:31 GMT -5 alwaysbeoptimizing said:

May 22, 2015 13:09:21 GMT -5 The Captain said:

The article provided almost no real data so I tried to do a little research on my own:

www.trulia.com/school-district/WA-King_County/Seattle_Public_Schools/

The class sizes listed here don't seem all that bad to me, actually - they look pretty good (DD's class was from 28-32 kids in grades K-5).  Where she is at now the average class size is 28 kids.  That's much higher than the bulk of the schools listed here.

Can't speak to the book or supply issue but I can say we are given a supply list that we have the buy at the beginning of the year.  Yea the books DD brings home look pretty beat up but I don't think math or science has changed all that much in the past 5-6 years?

The computers seem a bit of an issue, but does your DD know that schools can apply for grants to get funding for extra equipment?  Maybe it works differently in every state but DD's school has a few labs funded by grants by various foundations.

As far as the school being in a poor area - if a certain percentage of the student enrollment is below the poverty line the school actually gets additional federal funding as you've acknowledged by saying the school has title 1 status.  What is the spending per pupil? 

Hmm found something here:

www.washingtonpolicy.org/publications/facts/key-facts-about-seattle-public-schools

Seems like the restrictive work rules put in by the teacher's union is actually causing more harm than good.  There are more staff in the district than actual teachers.  Now how can that be good for the kids?

The spending per pupil is not that far off from DD's new district, which is in the top 20 state wide. 

More money is not always the answer.

I honestly don't see crowding and underfunding as an issue here?

be careful about comparing average class size to your DD.

Let's do an example

101 students

1 is special needs requiring 1:1 instruction

10 are special needs requiring 1:5 instruction

90 do not require special education

Let's say the 90 are in 3 classes of 30 each

Six classes, with an average of 17 each.  But if you ask 90% of the parents, they'd report having 30 kids in their class...

Are you suggesting that we spend an inordinant amount of our educational resources (approximately 50%, in your example) on the group of children who have the least probability of high levels of educational achievement? 

[zibazinski]

May 22, 2015 18:14:28 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

May 22, 2015 16:51:31 GMT -5 alwaysbeoptimizing said:

be careful about comparing average class size to your DD.

Let's do an example

101 students

1 is special needs requiring 1:1 instruction

10 are special needs requiring 1:5 instruction

90 do not require special education

Let's say the 90 are in 3 classes of 30 each

Six classes, with an average of 17 each.  But if you ask 90% of the parents, they'd report having 30 kids in their class...

Are you suggesting that we spend an inordinant amount of our educational resources (approximately 50%, in your example) on the group of children who have the least probability of high levels of educational achievement? 

Duh. It's been that way for decades now

[Deleted]

May 22, 2015 16:09:59 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

www.jsonline.com/news/education/42716407.html

Purchasing: MPS buys 252 types of black or blue pens (costing from 7 cents to $2.49 per pen) and 18 types of pencil sharpeners (from $10.84 to $106.68 each). Lower cost items could save $2.1 million.

How do you get a $106.68 pencil sharpener?   I always liked the ones they bolted to the wall. Of course, you actually had to turn the crank with your hand.   My favorite is a small steel one I have, made in Germany, that's the size of a large grape and probably cost $2.

We had a school funding formula in KS that  was Byzantine in its complexity.  Basically each school got (total school budget $$/total number of kids in district)* number of kids in that school.  BUT... a kid getting free lunches, or who was ESL, or who had an Individual Education Plan, etc... counted as more than one kid.  Depending on how many issues they had, they could count as 2 or 3 kids.  Thus, the rush to sign as many kids as possible up for free lunches even if they threw them into the trash, and find a way to classify as many as possible as special ed of some sort.

[Shooby]

I think part of the problem is the schools are trying to be everything to everybody. And, when you do that, you really don't do anything well.

[marvholly]

We are in the same boat, generally, in IL. Proper payments NOT being made to pension accounts. State has been cutting back on per diem, per student for YEARS so either some classes are cancelled/cut back (art, music, library, gym), class size is larger, books not updated/replaced, supplies (copy paper, worksheets, ……..) not available…………

DD2 teaches in the financially worst off school in a very wealthy suburban town. When we spoke yesterday I mentioned I expected the Chicago city teachers to go on strike. Her response was, ‘don’t they always.’ As it happens they did in 2012 but NOT for a number of years before. NOTE: her district contract is up this year too & she says there is NO discussion of a strike and limited wants.

The property taxes have gone up somewhat to help BUT property owners cannot fund everything.  We still need police, parks, libraries & firemen.

[zibazinski]

May 22, 2015 19:51:06 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

I hope a lawsuit like this comes to OR.  Our public schools are in a pitiful state, depending on what district you are in. We have average class sizes of 30-35 kids and a shorter school year than most of the rest of the nation. 

Per pupil funding isn't a super helpful measure.  Districts with higher legacy costs like pension funds or with older buildings may have less money to put in classrooms.  Our old school district had a levy that raised our property taxes by almost $400 a year.  None of it went to the classroom. It went to increased PERS costs.

That PERS is going to destroy you. My fire chief buddy there loves to brag that when he retires, he'll make more than when he worked.

[tskeeter]

May 22, 2015 18:35:37 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

May 22, 2015 18:14:28 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Are you suggesting that we spend an inordinant amount of our educational resources (approximately 50%, in your example) on the group of children who have the least probability of high levels of educational achievement? 

Duh. It's been that way for decades now

Yes it has,  Since before my Mom was teaching SLBP back in the late 70's.  But, I think few people really understand the amount of resources and the cost of the resources that are devoted to educational services for the disabled.  By my estimates, easily 10 times the average cost for all students.  But I'm not hearing anybody inside the educational community questioning whether this is the appropriate allocation of educational resources.  All I hear about is demands from teachers for more money and more resources.  Nobody seems to consider whether a reallocation of existing resources might be appropriate.  Or whether the probable outcome of the educational process justifies the level of investment that would be required.  

[zibazinski]

Federal law mandates this

[zibazinski]

There are some systems who have paid for families to move away because it's cheaper.

[tskeeter]

May 23, 2015 9:50:14 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Federal law mandates this

Yes, but that doesn't mean that it is right.  Nor does it mean that educational services for the disabled should be an open check book at the expense of educational services for children with brighter academic prospects.  The reality is that nobody wants to be so politically incorrect as to deny a disabled child Cadillac quality educational services, but it's OK to provide children without significant disabiliteis a Yugo quality education.

Remember, the law is the the law only until we change it.

I think the education community has a history of acting like they are helpless.  We can't terminate teachers who perform poorly, we have to spend our resources this way or that way.  Bull.  The business community has the same issues of organized labor, limited resources, and government regulation.  However, acting helpless is not an option in the private sector, as it seems to be in education.  Businesses manage to terminate the employment of poorly performing union members, appropriately allocate limited resources, and be successful in the face of government regulation.  It takes hard work.  Maybe we need to ask if the educational community is working hard enough at being successful.  Or are they working hard at complaining about the situation they are faced with? 

[zibazinski]

There needs to be a basic minimum because there are places that will do nothing and that's not right either but PT and OT? Seriously? It's a school not a clinic.

[zibazinski]

May 23, 2015 10:04:02 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

May 23, 2015 9:50:14 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Federal law mandates this

Yes, but that doesn't mean that it is right.  Nor does it mean that educational services for the disabled should be an open check book at the expense of educational services for children with brighter academic prospects.  The reality is that nobody wants to be so politically incorrect as to deny a disabled child Cadillac quality educational services, but it's OK to provide children without significant disabiliteis a Yugo quality education.

Remember, the law is the the law only until we change it.

I think the education community has a history of acting like they are helpless.  We can't terminate teachers who perform poorly, we have to spend our resources this way or that way.  Bull.  The business community has the same issues of organized labor, limited resources, and government regulation.  However, acting helpless is not an option in the private sector, as it seems to be in education.  Businesses manage to terminate the employment of poorly performing union members, appropriately allocate limited resources, and be successful in the face of government regulation.  It takes hard work.  Maybe we need to ask if the educational community is working hard enough at being successful.  Or are they working hard at complaining about the situation they are faced with? 

Good luck.

[Deleted]

May 23, 2015 9:47:11 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

May 22, 2015 18:35:37 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Duh. It's been that way for decades now

Yes it has,  Since before my Mom was teaching SLBP back in the late 70's.  But, I think few people really understand the amount of resources and the cost of the resources that are devoted to educational services for the disabled.  By my estimates, easily 10 times the average cost for all students.  But I'm not hearing anybody inside the educational community questioning whether this is the appropriate allocation of educational resources.  All I hear about is demands from teachers for more money and more resources.  Nobody seems to consider whether a reallocation of existing resources might be appropriate.  Or whether the probable outcome of the educational process justifies the level of investment that would be required.  

Special education laws are federal laws.  All students are entitled to a "free and appropriate" education by law.  If that education costs $100,000 for one student, so be it.  It is the law. 

Why on earth would educators be discussing how to break a federal law? If you don't comply, you can personally be sued.