Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 11:06:31 GMT -5
Yes, but that doesn't mean that it is right. Nor does it mean that educational services for the disabled should be an open check book at the expense of educational services for children with brighter academic prospects. The reality is that nobody wants to be so politically incorrect as to deny a disabled child Cadillac quality educational services, but it's OK to provide children without significant disabiliteis a Yugo quality education. Remember, the law is the the law only until we change it. I think the education community has a history of acting like they are helpless. We can't terminate teachers who perform poorly, we have to spend our resources this way or that way. Bull. The business community has the same issues of organized labor, limited resources, and government regulation. However, acting helpless is not an option in the private sector, as it seems to be in education. Businesses manage to terminate the employment of poorly performing union members, appropriately allocate limited resources, and be successful in the face of government regulation. It takes hard work. Maybe we need to ask if the educational community is working hard enough at being successful. Or are they working hard at complaining about the situation they are faced with? Good luck. Feel free to write your congressional representatives. They are the ones that have to change the law. The education community can't change it. But we are the ones who will be sued if we don't follow it.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 11:23:27 GMT -5
There needs to be a basic minimum because there are places that will do nothing and that's not right either but PT and OT? Seriously? It's a school not a clinic. Here the state was funding PT/OT from health budget, not school budget. But a couple years ago they terminated the services being on-site at schools. They said they'd keep supplying the services, but parents had to get the kids to doctor offices instead of having them on-site at the schools. I get frustrated when the decision makers are so highly paid that they are totally out of touch with their average constituents issues. I'm sure above decision assumed everyone has a SAHP or Nanny; so no biggie for them to trek a disabled child over to a doctors office, during the school day
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 23, 2015 11:23:40 GMT -5
t-dog that is pretty amazing. I did statistics later in high school. There are basic concepts that could probably work in an 8th grade classroom, but one needs an understanding of algebra and how to solve those types of equations. ...:::"I think part of the problem is the schools are trying to be everything to everybody. And, when you do that, you really don't do anything well.":::... Shooby has highlighted what causes many entities to fail. The challenge though is that as a public entity, the person to whom they aren't being everything to feels his/her tax dollars entitle him/her to that thing. ...:::"The business community has the same issues of organized labor, limited resources, and government regulation. However, acting helpless is not an option in the private sector, as it seems to be in education. Businesses manage to terminate the employment of poorly performing union members, appropriately allocate limited resources, and be successful in the face of government regulation. It takes hard work. Maybe we need to ask if the educational community is working hard enough at being successful. Or are they working hard at complaining about the situation they are faced with?":::... There may be lessons that public entities can learn from private ones. But that whole "not funded by tax dollars" thing gives private entities options that are not on the table for public ones. We face this in government too. We could totally run more efficiently, so long as the public stops demanding integrity and transparency. Watch how efficient and cheaply things get done when I can award a no-compete services contract to my brother in law's company tomorrow, rather than spend 6-12 months soliciting and reviewing bids.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on May 23, 2015 11:28:51 GMT -5
There needs to be a basic minimum because there are places that will do nothing and that's not right either but PT and OT? Seriously? It's a school not a clinic. I agree with you. Problem is most health insurance companies don't cover PT/OT due to disabilities, only injury recovery. The lack of health insurance coverage just moved all those costs to the schools. After all, if a kid's hand is to weak to hold a pencil properly, the school needs to help so the kid can participate in his education. The system is REALLY f'ed up.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on May 23, 2015 11:35:01 GMT -5
I think part of the problem is the schools are trying to be everything to everybody. And, when you do that, you really don't do anything well. I don't think schools WANT to be everything to everybody, they just happen the be on the front line of society breakdown. Kids show up hungry or without coats, they implement programs to help that. Kids don't speak English? They start a program for that. Behavior issues? Disabilities? Family dysfunction? These issues affect the schools being able to operate, so they have to set up programs to help. Believe me, if these societal issues weren't there, the teachers would be gloriously happy to focus on the three Rs. Unfortunately that just isn't the case.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on May 23, 2015 13:19:49 GMT -5
Yes it has, Since before my Mom was teaching SLBP back in the late 70's. But, I think few people really understand the amount of resources and the cost of the resources that are devoted to educational services for the disabled. By my estimates, easily 10 times the average cost for all students. But I'm not hearing anybody inside the educational community questioning whether this is the appropriate allocation of educational resources. All I hear about is demands from teachers for more money and more resources. Nobody seems to consider whether a reallocation of existing resources might be appropriate. Or whether the probable outcome of the educational process justifies the level of investment that would be required. Special education laws are federal laws. All students are entitled to a "free and appropriate" education by law. If that education costs $100,000 for one student, so be it. It is the law.
Why on earth would educators be discussing how to break a federal law? If you don't comply, you can personally be sued.
SS, I'm not suggesting that anyone break the law. In this situation, I think the question is what is "appropriate"? I don't believe that appropriate means open check book. Although it seems that the education for those with disabilities is often approached as if appropriate means until the money runs out, at the expense of all other children in the district. Let's face it, when someone else is footing the bill, there is no limit to what many people will consider appropriate. Whether it's the education of children with disabilities, or the medical treatment and care provided to loved ones, or the lifestyle that social services beneficiaries should be able to live. What I'm suggesting is that the education community re-evaluate how it allocates the resources that the taxpayers provide and ask difficult questions about how we are going to define the concept of an appropriate education for various groups of children. I think that we need to start asking ourselves these difficult questions when the highest achieving products of our education system can only achieve mediocre performance when they are compared to their peers from around the world. If the laws we have allowed to be enacted compromise the education of millions of children for the benefit of a much smaller group of children, maybe we need to challenge just how appropriate those laws are. After all, 55 MPH speed limits were repealed, prohibition was repealed, and, I'm sure that if I performed a serious search for other laws that have been repealed, I would be able to find hundreds and hundreds of examples. Just because it's the law doesn't mean it is a good law.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 23, 2015 14:18:05 GMT -5
8 Bit WWBG - my 6th grader just finished a section of geometry. I didn't have geometry in terms of finding volumes and surface area until 8th grade. He is now doing statistics which I did in High School. We are shoving so much down to earlier grades that the kids haven't mastered the basics before diving into the more advanced. It just leaves most of them frustrated and hating school. I remember doing that way before 8th grade. I believe it was 5th grade.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 15:48:55 GMT -5
Special education laws are federal laws. All students are entitled to a "free and appropriate" education by law. If that education costs $100,000 for one student, so be it. It is the law.
Why on earth would educators be discussing how to break a federal law? If you don't comply, you can personally be sued.
SS, I'm not suggesting that anyone break the law. In this situation, I think the question is what is "appropriate"? I don't believe that appropriate means open check book. Although it seems that the education for those with disabilities is often approached as if appropriate means until the money runs out, at the expense of all other children in the district. Let's face it, when someone else is footing the bill, there is no limit to what many people will consider appropriate. Whether it's the education of children with disabilities, or the medical treatment and care provided to loved ones, or the lifestyle that social services beneficiaries should be able to live. What I'm suggesting is that the education community re-evaluate how it allocates the resources that the taxpayers provide and ask difficult questions about how we are going to define the concept of an appropriate education for various groups of children. I think that we need to start asking ourselves these difficult questions when the highest achieving products of our education system can only achieve mediocre performance when they are compared to their peers from around the world. If the laws we have allowed to be enacted compromise the education of millions of children for the benefit of a much smaller group of children, maybe we need to challenge just how appropriate those laws are. After all, 55 MPH speed limits were repealed, prohibition was repealed, and, I'm sure that if I performed a serious search for other laws that have been repealed, I would be able to find hundreds and hundreds of examples. Just because it's the law doesn't mean it is a good law. As a family, we compromise as we allocate our resources all the time. Johnny needs glasses. Janie wants to go to math camp. Johnny needs glasses to see. Janie will still be able to add and subtract if she doesn't go to math camp. Maybe Johnny will only grow up to be a janitor whereas Janie has the potential to be a physicist. It doesn't matter. The parents buy the glasses first and try to help Janie as best they can with the $$$ they have left over.
Special education is about "leveling the playing field." Good schools do try to be inventive with their resources, but they still have to obey the law. The law makes the special needs student a protected class whose needs come first.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 23, 2015 17:30:58 GMT -5
Yup. Until you change that, the money will be spent that way.
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imanangel
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Post by imanangel on May 24, 2015 1:48:03 GMT -5
Extra staff can be very good for the kids. It depends on what that staff is doing. For example, are these teacher aides? They allow for more individualization of instruction at a cheaper price than hiring additional full-time teachers. Sometimes special education aides shadow a single student all day.
Plus, non-teaching "staff" probably includes everyone from the custodial staff to the bookkeeper to the school nurse to the lunchroom workers to the bus drivers and so on.
You'd have to be more specific about how this causing more harm than good. How is the extra staff the result of restrictive work rules? Did I read the articles too quickly?
Teacher aides are such a valuable part of a school staff. I do not know what I would do without the aides that come in my room to help out with the students. They are there for SPED, but they help with all the students. They get paid a lot less than a teacher does, but they are worth their weight in gold.
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imanangel
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Post by imanangel on May 24, 2015 2:12:54 GMT -5
8 Bit WWBG - my 6th grader just finished a section of geometry. I didn't have geometry in terms of finding volumes and surface area until 8th grade. He is now doing statistics which I did in High School. We are shoving so much down to earlier grades that the kids haven't mastered the basics before diving into the more advanced. It just leaves most of them frustrated and hating school. I remember doing that way before 8th grade. I believe it was 5th grade. It is part of our 5th grade curriculum. We probably do not go as in depth as they would in 8th grade, but they are definitely being introduced to it in 5th grade here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 4:12:42 GMT -5
Volume and surface area of what would be the question I guess.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on May 26, 2015 10:39:14 GMT -5
SS, I'm not suggesting that anyone break the law. In this situation, I think the question is what is "appropriate"? I don't believe that appropriate means open check book. Although it seems that the education for those with disabilities is often approached as if appropriate means until the money runs out, at the expense of all other children in the district. Let's face it, when someone else is footing the bill, there is no limit to what many people will consider appropriate. Whether it's the education of children with disabilities, or the medical treatment and care provided to loved ones, or the lifestyle that social services beneficiaries should be able to live. What I'm suggesting is that the education community re-evaluate how it allocates the resources that the taxpayers provide and ask difficult questions about how we are going to define the concept of an appropriate education for various groups of children. I think that we need to start asking ourselves these difficult questions when the highest achieving products of our education system can only achieve mediocre performance when they are compared to their peers from around the world. If the laws we have allowed to be enacted compromise the education of millions of children for the benefit of a much smaller group of children, maybe we need to challenge just how appropriate those laws are. After all, 55 MPH speed limits were repealed, prohibition was repealed, and, I'm sure that if I performed a serious search for other laws that have been repealed, I would be able to find hundreds and hundreds of examples. Just because it's the law doesn't mean it is a good law. As a family, we compromise as we allocate our resources all the time. Johnny needs glasses. Janie wants to go to math camp. Johnny needs glasses to see. Janie will still be able to add and subtract if she doesn't go to math camp. Maybe Johnny will only grow up to be a janitor whereas Janie has the potential to be a physicist. It doesn't matter. The parents buy the glasses first and try to help Janie as best they can with the $$$ they have left over.
Special education is about "leveling the playing field." Good schools do try to be inventive with their resources, but they still have to obey the law. The law makes the special needs student a protected class whose needs come first.
SS, using the level the playing field, cost is no object approach, I should have been declared a special needs athlete because my athletic prowess is pretty much limited to put one foot in front of the other. I should have been provided with dedicated trainers and coaches to help me achieve as close to Olympic caliber athletic performance as I was capable of delivering. After all, other children were more athletically capable than I was. And my lack of athletic achievement has affected my life for over 50 years. I should have had the same opportunities that my chemistry lab partner had. Then, maybe, just maybe, I'd have an Olympic bronze medal, too. Well, most likely not. But I should have been provided the resources to make me the best athlete that I was capable of being. Obviously, you and I have differing opinions about how much should be spent leveling the playing field for special needs children. I don't think that I have any hope of swaying you from your we must level the playing field regardless of ability and cost philosophy. And you're not going to change my premise that there should be an element of cost/benefit analysis in determining how educational funds should be spent.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on May 26, 2015 11:59:42 GMT -5
I think a large part of the frustration of teachers is the inability to effectively teach- do to so many other influences.
I have a friend who is a 4th grade teacher. She has two- TWO- students in her class that are not "potty trained". One has a disability and requires a diaper. The parents want the teachers to be responsible for changing the child. I have to agree, that should not be the responsibility of the teacher. The other, just refuses to use the bathroom and doesn't see anything wrong with going in pant. Nice.
She had a student several years ago, who had very limited gross motor skills. She has "suggested" to the parents that they seek medical attention- because she's not allowed to suggest that there might be something wrong with the child. Parents told her it was her responsibility to teach him. Period. It was several years before the child was diagnoses, and now he's really far behind developmentally.
We've gone so far to be sure the special needs kids included and equal- but I don't think that is always in the best interests of the child. I don't think it's fair to the teachers or the kids to expect them to be on a "level playing field".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 14:35:22 GMT -5
We actually don't disagree that much tskeeter. And there are no "blank checks" being written. Parents of children with disabilities will tell you that they often have to fight to get what their child "needs." It is just that there is a finite amount of money and many competing needs. Students with disabilities are a protected class whose needs come first. When transportation is cut, special education students must still receive transportation. Educators didn't write the law.
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t-dog
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Post by t-dog on May 26, 2015 15:01:18 GMT -5
Volume and surface area of what would be the question I guess. rectangular prisms, triangular prisms etc...
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on May 26, 2015 15:57:01 GMT -5
I think a large part of the frustration of teachers is the inability to effectively teach- do to so many other influences. I have a friend who is a 4th grade teacher. She has two- TWO- students in her class that are not "potty trained". One has a disability and requires a diaper. The parents want the teachers to be responsible for changing the child. I have to agree, that should not be the responsibility of the teacher. The other, just refuses to use the bathroom and doesn't see anything wrong with going in pant. Nice. She had a student several years ago, who had very limited gross motor skills. She has "suggested" to the parents that they seek medical attention- because she's not allowed to suggest that there might be something wrong with the child. Parents told her it was her responsibility to teach him. Period. It was several years before the child was diagnoses, and now he's really far behind developmentally. We've gone so far to be sure the special needs kids included and equal- but I don't think that is always in the best interests of the child. I don't think it's fair to the teachers or the kids to expect them to be on a "level playing field". No doubt there are completely unreasonable parents who expect that the education system is also their child's daycare service. It's very easy to spend the money that other taxpayers provide on your child. However, unless the "education system" (educational system includes taxpayers, because we fund the educational system) fights these unreasonable demands we can expect to continue to see more and more of the resources devoted to trying to educate and care for the least academically capable students. And the quality of education provided to more capable students is likely to continue to decline.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 16:04:40 GMT -5
Volume and surface area of what would be the question I guess. rectangular prisms, triangular prisms etc... So, using pi. I'm trying to remember when we introduced pi... I'd have to look. Amazing how quickly those things slip your mind, lol. But I don't think it was 5th grade.. ?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on May 26, 2015 16:08:11 GMT -5
rectangular prisms, triangular prisms etc... So, using pi. I'm trying to remember when we introduced pi... I'd have to look. Amazing how quickly those things slip your mind, lol. But I don't think it was 5th grade.. ? We keep talking about pie but everyone keeps forgetting the e!!!
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milee
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Post by milee on May 26, 2015 16:13:18 GMT -5
rectangular prisms, triangular prisms etc... So, using pi. I'm trying to remember when we introduced pi... I'd have to look. Amazing how quickly those things slip your mind, lol. But I don't think it was 5th grade.. ? No need for pi for calculating a rectangular or triangular prism.
But I'm a pi fan, so if you have a way to use it here - let me know.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on May 26, 2015 16:17:30 GMT -5
We actually don't disagree that much tskeeter. And there are no "blank checks" being written. Parents of children with disabilities will tell you that they often have to fight to get what their child "needs." It is just that there is a finite amount of money and many competing needs. Students with disabilities are a protected class whose needs come first. When transportation is cut, special education students must still receive transportation. Educators didn't write the law. While educators aren't responsible for writing the laws, educators are responsible for administering the laws. Most laws are subject to wide interpretation in how they are administered. So I don't believe that educators should be permitted to throw up their hands and act helpless when it comes to how they administer their legal obligations. Educators also have an obligation to the people who provide their funding to use that funding in a cost effective fashion. That obligation extends to calling public attention to legal requirements imposed on the educaiton system that are not in the best interests of the majority of students. I've never seen a school district report the cost per student to provide services to various student groups. How much more does it cost to educate students who must be provided an ESL eduction? How much does it cost per student for SPED vs. students who do not require dedicated remedial assistance? How much does it cost to provide in-school medical care to students suffering chronic medical conditions? How much has it cost the school district to deal with emotionally unstable students and the consequences of their behavior (a neighbor, who is a school nurse, suffered a concussion and was out of work for more than a week recovering as a result of being stuck by a student she was attempting to provide care to)? Overall, the education system has done a damn poor job of giving taxpayers information that would allow them to understand the relative per pupil costs of the programs the education system operates. The typical "we don't track that" response is a cop out. While certain costs may not be isolated and tracked today, there is no reason why procedures and accounting systems can not be modified to provide the information that taxpayers should understand. With adequate information, taxpayers can participate in the the evaluation of what is "appropriate" rather than leaving those decisions to the bureaucrats, legislators, lawyers, and judges.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 16:39:08 GMT -5
tskeeter, the type of report that you are asking for is probably illegal under current special education laws. It doesn't matter in the sense that the district is legally mandated to educate all students. So such a report would be incendiary for no purpose.
If you found out that it cost $5000 more to educate a special education student than a regular education student, what would you do? Demand that the regular education student be treated "fairly"? What is "fair" in a world where two students have already been treated "unfairly" by Mother Nature in that one is disabled and one is not? And does a gifted student deserve even more of our resources. Ironically, I have known many "gifted" children who struggle to launch.
It is a good discussion to have on an online message board, but it is one that will go nowhere in the real world. Parents of special needs students fought hard to get their kids out of the room in the basement next to the boiler. No politician is going to vote to repeal the special education laws. In fact, they've been reaffirmed with IDEA and ADA laws.
By the way, you need to understand that "educators" is a much more inclusive word than your usage. I am a teacher so I am an "educator." I have zero to do with allocation of resources. My involvement with an IEP is to sign off that I will implement what the parent, case manager, etc. have decided the student needs. In other words, I will follow the IEP. I might suggest that the student test in the resource room; I do not have any voice in whether a resource room should be set up.
So you need to change "educators" to "education policy makers." Then I can shut up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 16:53:17 GMT -5
Lol. Definitely have my art brain in and not my math one! It must be all the circles spinning around, I've spent the afternoon failing one spin art idea after another...
The thing is, reading that, I was like repeating 1/2 base times height ... As I looked it up and was like, yeah, no pi in what you are chanting.
Pie is round. Maybe I can do pie art. Maybe I should get some sleep.
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t-dog
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Post by t-dog on May 26, 2015 16:55:32 GMT -5
Great thanks folks - now I want pie!
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on May 26, 2015 17:23:26 GMT -5
tskeeter, the type of report that you are asking for is probably illegal under current special education laws. It doesn't matter in the sense that the district is legally mandated to educate all students. So such a report would be incendiary for no purpose.
If you found out that it cost $5000 more to educate a special education student than a regular education student, what would you do? Demand that the regular education student be treated "fairly"? What is "fair" in a world where two students have already been treated "unfairly" by Mother Nature in that one is disabled and one is not? And does a gifted student deserve even more of our resources. Ironically, I have known many "gifted" children who struggle to launch.
It is a good discussion to have on an online message board, but it is one that will go nowhere in the real world. Parents of special needs students fought hard to get their kids out of the room in the basement next to the boiler. No politician is going to vote to repeal the special education laws. In fact, they've been reaffirmed with IDEA and ADA laws.
By the way, you need to understand that "educators" is a much more inclusive word than your usage. I am a teacher so I am an "educator." I have zero to do with allocation of resources. My involvement with an IEP is to sign off that I will implement what the parent, case manager, etc. have decided the student needs. In other words, I will follow the IEP. I might suggest that the student test in the resource room; I do not have any voice in whether a resource room should be set up.
So you need to change "educators" to "education policy makers." Then I can shut up. I doubt that the type of reporting that I've suggested would be illegal in most school systems. I didn't talk about a by pupil accounting. Only that the costs of various type of programs be captured and reported on a per pupil basis. As long as you can't say "it cost $xx to educate Susi Johnson this year" I con't see how that would be an privacy issue. And cost does matter when you are dealing with limited resources. The terms such as "appropriate" and"fair" are subject to a wide, wide range of interpretations. By the way, I have a pretty good understanding who I am talking about when I use the term educators. My Dad is a retired school administrator who started out in the classroom (BA, MS, Ed.D), my Mom was a SLBP teacher (BA, MA), one of my cousins teaches in the public school system (BA, MA), her brother teaches at the university level (BA, MS, JD), their Dad is a retired university professor (BS, MS, Ph.D), one of my BIL's teaches industrial arts (BA), several extended family members are teachers, as are several close friends and acquintances. I've probably spent more years of my life with educators than you have spent with educators in your role as a teacher. When I talk about educators, I'm talking about teachers, classroom aids, school administrators, school board members, and education academics. Every member of all of these groups are influential educators because they function inside the educational system. I don't think the responsibility for cost effective use of the taxpayer's money is limited to some nebulous educational policy maker group. Every educator (and we taxpayers, too) has the opportunity to to question the system we have and to work to change it if they think changes are in order. Sorry, teachers don't get a pass from me when it comes to changing the educational system. Especially since teachers as a group have demonstrated that they think they can change the educational system through the NEA and state and local education associations. .
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 18:22:16 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 18:23:34 GMT -5
tskeeter, the type of report that you are asking for is probably illegal under current special education laws. It doesn't matter in the sense that the district is legally mandated to educate all students. So such a report would be incendiary for no purpose.
If you found out that it cost $5000 more to educate a special education student than a regular education student, what would you do? Demand that the regular education student be treated "fairly"? What is "fair" in a world where two students have already been treated "unfairly" by Mother Nature in that one is disabled and one is not? And does a gifted student deserve even more of our resources. Ironically, I have known many "gifted" children who struggle to launch.
It is a good discussion to have on an online message board, but it is one that will go nowhere in the real world. Parents of special needs students fought hard to get their kids out of the room in the basement next to the boiler. No politician is going to vote to repeal the special education laws. In fact, they've been reaffirmed with IDEA and ADA laws.
By the way, you need to understand that "educators" is a much more inclusive word than your usage. I am a teacher so I am an "educator." I have zero to do with allocation of resources. My involvement with an IEP is to sign off that I will implement what the parent, case manager, etc. have decided the student needs. In other words, I will follow the IEP. I might suggest that the student test in the resource room; I do not have any voice in whether a resource room should be set up.
So you need to change "educators" to "education policy makers." Then I can shut up. I doubt that the type of reporting that I've suggested would be illegal in most school systems. I didn't talk about a by pupil accounting. Only that the costs of various type of programs be captured and reported on a per pupil basis. As long as you can't say "it cost $xx to educate Susi Johnson this year" I con't see how that would be an privacy issue. And cost does matter when you are dealing with limited resources. The terms such as "appropriate" and"fair" are subject to a wide, wide range of interpretations. By the way, I have a pretty good understanding who I am talking about when I use the term educators. My Dad is a retired school administrator who started out in the classroom (BA, MS, Ed.D), my Mom was a SLBP teacher (BA, MA), one of my cousins teaches in the public school system (BA, MA), her brother teaches at the university level (BA, MS, JD), their Dad is a retired university professor (BS, MS, Ph.D), one of my BIL's teaches industrial arts (BA), several extended family members are teachers, as are several close friends and acquintances. I've probably spent more years of my life with educators than you have spent with educators in your role as a teacher. When I talk about educators, I'm talking about teachers, classroom aids, school administrators, school board members, and education academics. Every member of all of these groups are influential educators because they function inside the educational system. I don't think the responsibility for cost effective use of the taxpayer's money is limited to some nebulous educational policy maker group. Every educator (and we taxpayers, too) has the opportunity to to question the system we have and to work to change it if they think changes are in order. Sorry, teachers don't get a pass from me when it comes to changing the educational system. Especially since teachers as a group have demonstrated that they think they can change the educational system through the NEA and state and local education associations. . I've been teaching for 41 years--even before there were special education laws--so I doubt if you've spent more years of your life with educators than I have as a teacher. But maybe you are more than 41.
Teachers and classroom aides are not influential when it comes to educational policy. I'm sorry, but nobody wants my opinion on how the money is spent. They certainly don't want the aides' opinion. We did a reduction in force for ALL the aides except the special education aides last year. Important members of the "educational community," huh? We know zero about how school funding is spent. Your father was an administrator; he influenced policy. The university cousin influences policy through the faculty senate. The ordinary classroom teacher implements the policy that is handed down to him/her by the State BOE, the local BOE, and the school administrators. Maybe if I was an activist I would be the kind of teacher you envision. I just do my job--teaching the kids in my classroom--to the best of my ability. That is really what they pay me for.
NEA has some power, but most teachers don't care for NEA. They are too political and smack of a union. I belong to a professional organization, meaning that we don't negotiate for raises, benefits, etc. We must lobby for them. I belong to NEA only because we can only have a "unified" membership in Alabama. That means that to belong to AEA, which provides my professional insurance and does the lobbying, I must also belong to NEA and the local unit. When I retire, I will no longer pay dues to any of them.
Sorry. You as a taxpayer and a voter are just as much a policy maker than I am. I rank about where the janitor does in terms of policy making. He is also a taxpayer and a voter.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 19:08:18 GMT -5
Umm @southernsusana..I doubt it's illegal to publish what tskeeter suggested. I looked up the budget for the large public school district and they have all of their expenditures listed. Now making sense of some of the codes is another story...but it's there. I'm sure that it is broken out to some extent. But the special education teacher that serves as a co-teacher? Do you think she is placed under special education services or as personnel? Is transportation broken down under special education vs. regular ed students? When I have a class that is half regular ed. students and half special ed. students (with the co-teacher mentioned above), do you think I get counted as a .5 regular education teacher and .5 special education teacher?
I just don't think that kind of precise accounting that will give tskeeter the information he/she is seeking is going to be published.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 20:05:09 GMT -5
I don't know, but the one I looked at had a line by line accounting that was 800 pages long. Lets put it this way, if there is a snowballs chance in hell that the schools can account for that money, get grants, whatever, you know they have all that data and can drill down to that .5 timeshare. Problem solved then. tskeeter, the data is already there for you to crunch. Enjoy!
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973beachbum
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Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:13 GMT -5
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Post by 973beachbum on May 27, 2015 7:56:11 GMT -5
Umm @southernsusana..I doubt it's illegal to publish what tskeeter suggested. I looked up the budget for the large public school district in my area and they have all of their expenditures listed. Now making sense of some of the codes is another story...but it's there. Most of the extraordinary things have to be voted on by the board of education. So in my local district I will see the newspaper article saying what was voted on in the last meeting. Things like an aide to work one on one with a special needs student would have to be voted on, as that aide would have to be hired. They won't say the student's name, just call them student "X" type of thing, but the item needed and that it is for a special education student is there for all to read. It also lists the amount it will costs. I saw ones that made my eyebrows go above my hairline a few times. A few out of school placements that cost $250K a year with transportation. And a few special education transportation bills that ran $10K all by themselves for individual students. I doubt that info is separated by fiscal year, but it is out there if someone wanted to.
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