Take away the card? Allowance? Cold Turkey? How

[8 Bit WWBG]

After all the "mismatched spending/saving" threads, I'm curious about whether anyone out there would, could, will, or has taken away a spending spouse's ability to spend.

A common trait in these threads is one spouse spending without being aware of true available balances, or without reconciling the books. Perhaps the couple isn't able to save as much because one spouse is constantly spending on stupid stuff. Or perhaps serious shortfalls have happened when a spouse spends money not knowing or caring that the same money was just committed to another expenditure.

So I'm curious...

1) Would you do it? Would you actually take away your spouse's access to money? Or at least localize, isolate, or limit it in some ways.

2) COULD you do it? Do you have the buy in necessary to get them to relinquish the card? Or do they make most or all of the money and would tell you to puff fumes if you tried to take away access.

3) HOW would you do it? Would you separate accounts so that he/she only has access to a set amount of money and can only do that much damage? Would you stick with one account but use an envelope/all cash system?

This question isn't directed at the allowance system in general, because many couples decide on that mutually. This is specifically to discuss the scenario where one spouse's spending is the main problem, and taking away or minimizing that person's ability to spend is the only way the household will get ahead.

[fairlycrazy23]

I would think the spouse with the spending problem would have to at least admit to having an issue and agree to have the other spouse take the action to cut the spender off. It can not be done unilaterally or you will end up with a new expense divorce attorney.

[whoisjohngalt]

No, no and no. Then again, I would not marry anyone who is that immature/irresponsible or has such lack of respect for me and our relationship that I would have to treat him like a child.

And for the record, I DID marry a guy who did not know the word "savings" and spend his student loans on sending money to his parents, buying stuff, etc.

Lena

[Deleted]

As fairlycrazy stated the spouse with the spending problem would to need to first accept and admit they have a problem.

For my wife what we did are the following:
- increase 401K
- automated savings to both ROTH and savings account
- only keep limited/necessary amount on the account.

My wife is a smart woman, she knows 100 - 25 = 75. So if she knows that we will have money left over after all bills are paid (she knows all the bills that need to be paid and the amount for each), she will see no issue about spending an extra 50 to brink that remaining amount down to 25.

But if I leave just 27 and we will only have 2 dollars left after all bills are paid, she will not spend any extra and will only use her allowance.

And funny thing, for someone with a spending problem, she does not like debt or will go and use her credit card. So I am not worried about her adding debt to our balance sheet. My issue with her is savings, if she makes 200 and pay bills with 175, she feels it's ok to spend the remaining 25. She will spend every penny she makes.

[resolution]

I married a saver that makes me look like a spender by comparison, and I would never try to cut him off. But if for some reason I tried I think it would be impossible. He has excellent credit and could open any credit card that he applied for, with no way for me to stop it. There is no way for me to put a freeze on his credit, nor could I stop him from blowing his paycheck instead of depositing it into savings each week.

There is a federal rule recommended that will change credit card applications and make it possible for a working spouse to cut off a stay at home spouse. It will require the signature of the wage earner on any credit application that is based on the wage earner's income. At that point a stay at home spouse could be cut off (and I worry about women trying to escape domestic violence in this situation). Right now a spouse with no income can still apply and be approved for credit based on household income and not their own.

[shelby]

I am currently helping my ex with his budget and getting all bills and debt on payoff plan. Since we are still technically married this is of huge importance to me. After going over all the mess I think I now have an ulcer it is bad. While we were married he had nothing to do with the finances at all never paid a bill hardly even knew how much money we had I would tell him if he could spend or not. Now that we are separated and our finances are too I don't have control to take it away, I wish I could. Now I am making a detailed budget with all the advice I learned here and just praying he will follow. I am giving him certain financial advantages that I don't have too so if he does not try to fix this I will take those things away, about all I can do. He knows he has a problem and I did give him an alloted amount to spend weekly but it is in his control to do so or not.

[stats45]

Ugh. No, kinda, and double ugh. I hope that it never happens. I would be very concerned if it happened because it would represent such a huge change in personality.

If it did start happening (and it was not a big deal - a couple percent of monthly income), I would try to talk and see if there is something going on. Considering that he is remarkably frugal, I would consider it a major change if something was going on and see if there was something else happening (stress, unhappy at work). Hopefully, this would work, and we would get on the same page quickly.

If it started and was a big deal or it was a small change that kept getting worse, it would be directly off to couples counseling. I would make it abundantly clear that I didn't think it was about the spending per se, and more about trust, making decisions without the other person, and changing minds about long-term goals. I would make it clear that saying no to counseling was not an option if the relationship was to continue.

I would never try to take away my partner's autonomy. If we worked some scenario out with an objective third-party (I would be ok with that), and I would also not make him do anything I was not willing to do as well.

[Plain Old Petunia]

I did do something like that to my ex-husband. He resented my doing it, and I resented it being necessary. I would give him cash each payday and he carried a credit card for emergencies, but had no debit card or checks. He spent our grocery money on frivolous crap one too many times.

[8 Bit WWBG]

Thanks to those who've actually respected the question. To those who are so fragile you need constant reassurance, I hope you got it.

...:::"He knows he has a problem and I did give him an alloted amount to spend weekly but it is in his control to do so or not.":::...

This is what I'm getting at. You KNOW you have someone who wants to spend, and you cannot physically stop it. So a sensible strategy seems to be minimizing the damage you know he/she CAN do.

An allowance can be an example of this. We all agree you can't just take away your spouses ability to spending completely (unless you can, but that is its own headache). Nor should you if he/she also earns money. But budgeting an amount of money for them to spend with the understanding that its better for them to blow (example) $100/month than $200/month seems smart.

But obviously "selling" it to the spouse is hard. Someone who currently enjoys wasting $200/month is not going to suddenly agree to only blow $100/month unless there is something in it for him/her. Whether that thing is peace at home, or a long term goal, or a medium goal... I guess that is what I'm getting at.

No this is not about me and my DF. We are saving more than ever before as a team and household, and I am very happy.

[Deleted]

Mar 8, 2011 17:26:21 GMT -5 resolution said:

<snip>He has excellent credit and could open any credit card that he applied for, with no way for me to stop it. There is no way for me to put a freeze on his credit, nor could I stop him from blowing his paycheck instead of depositing it into savings each week.<snip>.

My concern is that, as kari noted, someone who's not on board could find a way around just about any restriction. In fact, they might be more motivated just out of spite to do it. Even with a poor credit rating, credit card offers still come in the mail, for example.

If I had a Significant Other who was really motivated to work on their finances, I'd give them some leeway in determining what would work for them. It might be the cash envelope system, or cutting up their credit cards, or one cc with a low limit. It would be based on their own thoughts about where their weaknesses lie. If they find, for example, that it kills them to spend money when they have to physically hand over cash but they over-spend with plastic, the answer would be the envelope system.

[luckyme]

My brother attempted to do this with my SIL. He found he couldn't stop the credit cards, they were in her name. He had her take over the bills so she could see "why" they needed to rein in spending.

She just quit paying the bills!

He dealt with it by working every minute of overtime he could. He aged terribly due to it and now is having a lot of health issues. He knew if he left her, he wouldn't have the kind of relationship with his kids like he wanted so he stayed.

That is why when I read about couples who are not on the same page financially, and one is a spender I can't help thinking they're a train wreck waiting to happen.

[Deleted]

I know you asked for personal experiences, but I'll share my story anyway. A friend of mine (she's younger than me and calls me her big sister) was absolutely horrible with money when she first got married. Her husband got sick of her blowing money and wasting money on OD fees. She would even write him checks for her share of household expenses, knowing she didn't have money to cover them. He'd deposit the check she wrote him, pay the bills, and half the bill payments would bounce because her check didn't clear. So even more OD fees.

He made her have her paycheck DD'd into a bank in his hometown, about an hour away. She had no access unless she actuallly drove up there. She didn't have any credit cards, and bad credit, so she couldn't get any. He gave her a weekly allowance for 'lunch money'. I think they've always had comparable base salaries; but she could boost her pay with OT, and he's always had some kind of business going on the side.

She would complain to me about being given an allowance like a little kid when she worked every day. I told her somebody had to have some sense; she'd been acting like a kid and had blown her chances to show she could handle money responsibly. Her husband still bought her basically everything she wanted, they had a beautiful house, money in the bank, their kids had individual savings accounts, the bills were paid and nobody was wanting for anything. I pretty much told her to quit whining........ it was time to grow up.

It took a while, but she finally came around and started working OT to fund her shopping sprees. As she became more responsible, hubby loosened the strings on the money. Today they both work hard and work together to get what they want and maintain their lifestyle.

The way he handled it wouldn't have worked for a lot of marriages, but he had to take drastic steps to stop her from ruining them financially because she was out of control. Fortunately, she learned from it all, they got past it and moved on to a better financial future.

[Elizabeth]

Mar 8, 2011 17:50:19 GMT -5 Plain Old Petunia said:

I did do something like that to my ex-husband. He resented my doing it, and I resented it being necessary. I would give him cash each payday and he carried a credit card for emergencies, but had no debit card or checks. He spent our grocery money on frivolous crap one too many times.

Petunia- based on this post and previous posts it seems like you have lived my current hell. I do resent the fact that I have to monitor his spending like a hawk. I did the allowance thing and he would blow it all and come back "needing" more for a work function or something. It's beyond frustrating. Now that we make a good income, I have loosened the "reigns" somewhat, but it really fries me knowing what we could save. The thing is, he likes it. He has no problem getting an allowance, but probably because he knows I will give in and give him more if he wants it.

[cronewitch]

I controlled my ex pretty much. He was old fashioned having been raised by depression era grandparents. He refused to have credit cards or a checking account and hated any kind of debt but spend every cent he had. At first he was the one in charge of the money. He cashed his check, got money orders for bills and spent the rest. I didn't like being broke so first I just saved some of the grocery money but I offered to take over the banking since I was a housewife and he was working overtime. Later I talked him into buying me a house and told him I needed a checking account to pay the closing cost. He didn't know anything about checking accounts so had nothing to do with it. I let him deposit his paycheck and keep the change and I let him have one blank check. To write the check he had to call me and ask if we could afford what he wanted. I simply told him yes or no and never told him how much we had saved. I got myself a credit card by accident, I was at sears and tried to write a check for a vacuum cleaner and they wanted a credit card as ID. They said I could get one with a zero limit but then they gave me a $200 limit, I never used the card

[Miss Tequila]

I would split our finances and let him deal with his own problems. I have little tolerance for irresponsibility.

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"I'd give them some leeway in determining what would work for them. It might be the cash envelope system, or cutting up their credit cards, or one cc with a low limit. It would be based on their own thoughts about where their weaknesses lie.":::...

Yes, this is excellent. If the spouse is motivated to work with you, and actually gives input, you are in a very sweet position to move forward.

...:::"He dealt with it by working every minute of overtime he could. He aged terribly due to it and now is having a lot of health issues. He knew if he left her, he wouldn't have the kind of relationship with his kids like he wanted so he stayed. ":::...

See, this is the situation that a lot of people find themselves in. A situation where they HAVE to work harder to make up for a slacker, because the slacker has managed to craft an environment where every other alternative yields WORSE consequences than shoudering a larger burden.

...:::"The way he handled it wouldn't have worked for a lot of marriages, but he had to take drastic steps to stop her from ruining them financially because she was out of control. Fortunately, she learned from it all, they got past it and moved on to a better financial future.":::...

Pink Cashmere, thank you. This is exactly the kind of case that supports my original post. I bet your friends husband didn't WANT to have to be the parent, but he saw that his spouse was sinking the family and he took a gamble that clearly paid off.

I don't know if you know the details, but I'd love to hear how he actually implemented it. As has been said (and I agree) many people would react negatively and rebel simply out of spite. There has got to be a very fine line between making it work, and tripping that "rebel" reaction that causes exactly the opposite.

I see it exactly as one spouse getting rid of all the junk food because the other spouse simply CANNOT resist it. Controlling? Maybe. But we are a results oriented society. I have a friend who lost 12lbs in about 3 weeks JUST by eliminating Mtn Dew.

Is this really any different than the wives who used to have to intercept their husbands every friday night at the bar and get the paycheck out of his hands before he drank it away?

[ihearyou2]

I had to deal with this last year and its actually frightening simple to take care of assuming there is any trust in the relationship. You sit down and say you lied and cheated on me. You can not be trusted, every penny that goes out or comes in goes through me. If they are an employee then you know what money comes in. Any time they want to spend ANYTHING you approve it just like a business. You review the bank activity every week and confirm that it all ties out. The only place they can screw you is by getting a credit card and racking up bills but even that should get caught pretty quickly since you know every penny going out and they have to make minimum payments. My experience is that for the spender it is a relief when their spouse takes the reins and allows them to not have the temptation anymore. The most important thing is taking control and a proactive approach.

[kgb18]

I guess I could and would limit my spouse's access to money if an issue arose where he was going to cause us financial hardship because of a spending problem/inability to manage money. Fortunately that's not an issue for us. All of our accounts are joint and we've never had a problem.

[Gardening Grandma]

My son is now divorced and money issues were a major cause. My ex dil was childlike in her approach to money. She would spend money that she knew they couldn't afford. While he was unemployed and there was less than $50 in the checking account, she wrote a check for a $50 doll for the daughter. She KNEW there wasn't enough money to cover the check, but she couldn't say "no".
He took away the checkbook (he'd already taken away the CC). He told her that if she got a job, she could spend it as she wished. She got a part time job and in one month was overdrawn by $600 (she hadn't even earned that much).

He gave her cash to buy groceries. She'd spend it, then tell him there was no food in the house.

When they divorced, she told everyone that he was a controlling asshole who was abusive because he would not allow her access to the finances.

At the time of the split, she had an older car that was paid for and ran fine. She traded it in for a newer nicer car. Now it's been repossessed and she has to rely on her BF to drive her to and from work. She got the older son a cell phone which has been cut off because she owes $600 on it.

I just shake my head. When someone is that obstinate and has their head so buried in the sand, what can you do? Live with it or leave...

[spartyparty]

I finally got my wife on the allowance thing....just told her that I could no longer budget for her expenses. She gets X dollars per week, but she still overspends a little bit (frickin' Hospital Giftshop and their payroll deduction). Although she did run up thousands of dollars of debt afterward (and has pretty much nothing to show for it) she has to figure out a way to pay it off with her allowance. I think she's finally learning how to budget now though.

ETA: She opened new credit card accounts....if she gets in over her head I'm not helping her and she'll just have to default on them.

[cael]

When DF moved up here, he kept overdrawing his account, so there were periods where I'd take it from him and give him an allowance for the week so he would actually be able to pay his portion of the bills. He was always pissed about it even though he understood it..... I haven't had to do that in a while and hopefully will never have to again!

[wewillsee]

This is a good topic. I have gone round and round regarding this with DW. She spends money on lots of little crap and is sometimes in denille. We have talked about the envelope system but I don't think that will work because it is way too much cash laying around. She is a stay at home mom and has no income. However, in the last two years she has opened up two credit cards in her name but used our household income since she has none. She pays for almost everything on those and we pay them in full every month. I would like to do the allowance thing so I have thought about opening a checking account at a separate bank for her that she would have her own debit card. I would then set up an auto pay from my checking account every week. She would then pay her CC bills from that account as well has give her access to cash and to pay via debit each time she went to Cost Co, where she overspends the most. However, I think that this may be more trouble than it is worth because if she starts making late payments on the credit card or starts bouncing checks, the fees will add up considerably. I really don't know what to do and I haven't seen any good suggestions.

[Deleted]

I don't know if you know the details, but I'd love to hear how he actually implemented it. As has been said (and I agree) many people would react negatively and rebel simply out of spite. There has got to be a very fine line between making it work, and tripping that "rebel" reaction that causes exactly the opposite.

Like I said earlier, her local bank account was closed and her paycheck was direct deposited in a bank in his hometown an hour away. She didn't have a checkbook or ATM card. She didn't have credit cards and she couldn't get any because of her credit. He gave her an allowance or "lunch money" as she called it. Any money she earned over her regular pay (overtime), she could have to spend freely.

He paid the bills and made sure everybody had what they needed and a lot of what they wanted. He would give her money (or maybe hand her the checkbook, I'm not sure which) for groceries or clothes for the kids or whatever, and if the receipts weren't on the desk for him to balance the accounts, she was in *trouble*. I don't think he was completely anal and watching her like a hawk, but she still didn't really have a way to hide purchases from him.

They were both in their early 20's, and she was just immature; they'd both gone straight from Moms' homes to having a mortgage. She knew she was just a big kid in a lot of ways and I think that's why she didn't really fight him when he took over.

When she'd complain to me about getting an allowance, I'd ask if she knew where their money was going. Yes. He didn't hide anything from her, he'd sit her down and show her what was what; she just couldn't access anything. I'd ask if he was spending money on something she didn't agree with. No. I'd ask if she and the kids (3) were lacking for anything. No. So I'd tell her to suck it up and learn from her mistakes.

I knew the crazy stuff she'd done and had *fussed* at her countless times while she was screwing up, so I didn't have a whole lot of sympathy for her when he finally said "ENOUGH".

Her husband wasn't evil about it, he just made it clear that playtime was over. Hearing the same thing from an outsider whose opinion she valued helped, along with her willingness to admit her faults. Maybe the same childish aspects of her personality that made her horrible with money also helped her to accept it when he took over. Does that make sense? If she hadn't been willing to follow his lead (thank God he wasn't trying to lead her astray, or I never would've encouraged her to accept it), and had rebelled, it would've been a disaster for their marriage.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Thank god DH is debt averse so I don't have to worry about that. However like Sparty's wife he spends a ton of money on little shit not realizing how much it adds up to. Plus he is horrible at communicating. He goes to work at 4 am and will spend $12 at the gas station. I don't know he's spent $12 till I go to work at 8am and check our statements. So now I have to rework the budget and guess how much he is going to spend this week so I can plan.

Finally told him I am sick of working around him and that I am not having it anymore. He gets $40 every two weeks to spend as he pleases no questions asked. We purchase his energy drinks at Sam's which saves us close to $40 a month as opposed to buying them at the gas station.

So far he's doing a really good job of staying on track with it. I've also gone back to writing every single bill on the calendar. I do the budget so I keep things in my head, but it hasn't been working since DH doesn't stop to ask if the electric bill needs to be paid or I am wiating for a check to clear. He sees the balance and therefore has $X to spend.

Everything on the calendar holds him accountable because it is right there in the living room next to our key hook. He cannot write off forgetting to log onto the computer and can't claim it overwhelms him like a spreadsheet. All I have to do is point.

We have no credit cards either, too much temptation. Our check cards act as VISAs so we've had no trouble reserving hotel rooms or anything. We'll keep it that way for as long as we can.

[Deleted]

It's been a few years; I don't know the details of how the conversation(s) went, but he basically said..... come with me.... we're closing your checking account, we're going to *hometown* to open an account for your paycheck, I'm not giving you a checkbook, and I'll manage everything. Since that's exactly what happened (he did put her in the car and go close/open accounts in 1 day), I assume her answer eventually boiled down to "ok" with some pouting.

Is that what you're asking WWBG?

ETA: She still mostly got what she wanted, she just learned to wait until they actually had extra money available for it. Then she learned that if she worked overtime, she could get it faster. So the only the thing she was really deprived of was the high from impulsive shopping sprees.

[azphx1972]

Having experienced a relationship where I played the parent in terms of managing the finances, I can say that it's not something I'd want to do again. It might work for the short term, but over the long haul it's just going to cause problems. You need to figure out a way to bring your spouse on board and get on the same page regarding finances. I'm not sure what I would do, but I'd probably try to drag my significant other to the Financial Peace University course, and to relationship counseling if there was resistance to that idea.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

The way my ex-SIL spent contributed to the downfall of my brother's marriage.

From what I understand, they were in about $30K of CC debt and my brother was looking to get out of it. He had the opportunity to move about 500 miles away to open a new restaurant and they'd pay him unlimited OT as well as a decent salary. The game plan was that they'd sell their house and move there.

So over about 18 months, my brother paid down the better part of the $30K, closing the cards as he went along. He went home one weekend only to find that his wife had refinanced their house, taking out a significant chunk of change (she had POA because she was supposed to be selling the house so they could move to the new location). She did refinance it (125% of the price - which was allowed at the time) in her own name though, getting my brother off the mortgage. He also discovered that while he was gone, she had opened up a slew of other CCs, spending just as freely with the new cards.

That was the straw that broke the camel's box - considering he had been working 80+ hour weeks to try to pay off the debt, living in a cheap room. They wound up splitting up and my brother managed to snag a mortgage on a townhome about 100 miles away and moving to another job that was closer. He took custody of the older boy and paid off and closed the newly opened cards that had his name tied to them.

It took him about 5 years to clean up the mess his wife made and to extracate himself from the bills she ran up. He now has custody of the second child, with only one child remaining with his ex (and her new husband).

The whole situation was a trainwreck beyond belief.

[Urban Chicago]

My spouse is great, so I honestly don't know how I'd handle it if he went off the deep end.

I do know that in truly extreme situations, your only real protection is divorce. A spouse can clean out the accounts, open multiple credit cards (in your name), anything. Usually a judge will tell you that no matter how crazy the ex is, or how much fraud was involved, you are responsible too. Even if the judge clears you, creditors may still go after you.

Actually, even divorce isn't great because a truly evil spouse can do a lot of damage between filing for divorce and finalization.

Yikes, I'm scaring myself!

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"...so I didn't have a whole lot of sympathy for her when he finally said "ENOUGH". Her husband wasn't evil about it...":::...

This is especially interesting. Most people would consider what we are talking about here to be completely "evil", even if the spender IS sinking the family, and even if the "warden" (for lack of a better word) implements the system in a non-confrontational way with complete transparency.

...:::"It's been a few years; I don't know the details of how the conversation(s) went, but he basically said..... come with me.... we're closing your checking account, we're going to *hometown* to open an account for your paycheck, I'm not giving you a checkbook, and I'll manage everything.":::...

For some reason I'm remembering that Simpsons episode where he tells Bart they are going to Disneyland, then takes him to military school. Ahahahahaha. "C'mon honey, lets go to Tiffany's" then take her to the bank.

...:::"I assume her answer eventually boiled down to "ok" with some pouting.":::...

In some ways he was lucky. I could see some people acting like caged animals, who might even try to resist physically.

...:::"So the only the thing she was really deprived of was the high from impulsive shopping sprees.":::...

DF has REALLY gotten better about this. Some of it was me saying "I'm not bankrolling every whim" and some of it was her getting tired of clutter and crap, and having much more appreciation for a solid financial future vs. some stupid trinket.

I was organizing photos of the donations we made in 2010 to accompany my taxes, and I had to take a few deep breaths to avoid getting mad over some of the memories. One in particular was especially painful -- it was some $100 piece of junk she wanted for a while and finally wore me down on. Once it was in the house, it saw about 5 mins of use, at which point it was returned to its box to sit in a closet for 2 years, finally getting donated. Grrrrrrr.....

I knew I was right all along, I just wish it didn't have to cost what it did for her to see it! I'm just happy that we are on the right track NOW.

Mich, I'm so sorry to hear how things went for your brother The situation is hard enough, but to have it done behind your back is worse.

[stats45]

Mich1, that is awful.

What did she spend the money on that he was not aware of the refinance money, CC money, etc.?