How to prevent rape

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 19, 2015 14:52:50 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Mar 19, 2015 14:42:29 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Rape victims are female... what... 95% of the time? 98% of the time?

I'm fine with using "he" raped "she" with the implicit understanding that men can be raped too, and women can be rapists.

I don't understand what laterbloomer hopes to accomplish with this thread, but c'est la vie.

Actually the statistics are much higher than that.  The link to the source data is included in the article, but in general I find Slate doesn't sensationalise too much.

www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html

ast year the National Crime Victimization Survey turned up a remarkable statistic. In asking 40,000 households about rape and sexual violence, the survey uncovered that 38 percent of incidents were against men. The number seemed so high that it prompted researcher Lara Stemple to call the Bureau of Justice Statistics to see if it maybe it had made a mistake, or changed its terminology. After all, in years past men had accounted for somewhere between 5 and 14 percent of rape and sexual violence victims. But no, it wasn’t a mistake, officials told her, although they couldn’t explain the rise beyond guessing that maybe it had something to do with the publicity surrounding former football coach Jerry Sandusky and the Penn State sex abuse scandal.

Wow. Didn't expect that.

Apologies for my ignorance.

OK. Now I'm gone for good.

[justme]

The vast majority think blood, violence, and stranger when you say rape. The vast majority of women are raped by someone they know (and I'm willing to bet a lot aren't beat to hell in the process).

I think if that disconnect was solved, if everyone knew and accepted that the majority of the time a rapist actually knows the victim people would consider the situation more before having sex.

The numbers that 1 in 6 women are sexually assaulted and 2/3 of them (and it's 80-90% for college aged) know their attacker should be very sobering statistics.

[quince]

Mar 19, 2015 13:29:13 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:22:26 GMT -5 imawino said:

Yes, I agree that is a simple option.  It is also an option to acknowledge the actual fact that most rapes are perpetrated by a man on a woman.  And to not get super bent out of shape because every post on the internet does not encompass every outlying scenario. 

Really time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/

And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).

Thank you for what you've posted. I saw the title and in my head, and "Don't rape people." was what I was thinking.  The idea that the primary concern should be people appreciating the idea of consent is important. I was immediately turned off by the assumption that the victim would be female, because male victims are often made invisible by how we discuss rape.


I DO think that people can choose to take precautions (It is NOT wrong to suggest people lock their doors/put valuables out of sight.  When there are thefts in a neighborhood, this is usually part of the neighborhood bulletin that goes out, because people CAN control their behaviors and risk factors, but not the behaviors of others. It is NOT VICTIM BLAMING. It is always still the fault of the thief.)

I do find it upsetting that in discussions of intoxicated sex, for instance, the assumption is always that the male is in control and responsible for what happens, while the female's agency is removed by her state of intoxication.   I understand that there is focus in these discussions to get away from that there is a very real tendency to "put on trial" the reporter of a sexual assault, but I think they go to far in hammering home on the idea that there's nothing anyone who isn't planning to assault someone can do to reduce the rate of assaults.

Ramble, ramble, ramble. Don't have sex with someone without their explicit consent, and take care to have awareness and control of your surroundings. 

[Deleted]

#2  Is it wrong to talk to a woman who is by herself?  I have been trying to talk to women I meet more.   I complemented the woman at Firestone tires today, by telling her I liked her shoes.  They were kind of like Chuck Taylors, but had an orange stripe at the bottom.  They were Dr Shoals.   Did it probably creep her out that I talked to her since she was sitting alone?  I have been flirting with some women at the grocery store also.  Would that may be creepy?

[milee]

Mar 19, 2015 18:03:59 GMT -5 @hickle said:

#2  Is it wrong to talk to a woman who is by herself?  I have been trying to talk to women I meet more.   I complemented the woman at Firestone tires today, by telling her I liked her shoes.  They were kind of like Chuck Taylors, but had an orange stripe at the bottom.  They were Dr Shoals.   Did it probably creep her out that I talked to her since she was sitting alone?  I have been flirting with some women at the grocery store also.  Would that may be creepy?

No. Men talk to me in the grocery, hardware and marine supply store. It's not usually creepy if it's just polite talk and sometimes they're interesting people.

Rukh's worried about your glasses, but I'm still more concerned with the fact that you appear to be naked over there. Now a naked guy trying to talk to you in the grocery store... that wouldn't be a good thing.

[MJ2.0]

Mar 19, 2015 18:38:53 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Rukh's worried about your glasses, but I'm still more concerned with the fact that you appear to be naked over there. Now a naked guy trying to talk to you in the grocery store... that wouldn't be a good thing.

It's not all bad.  At least you know up front how much... uh... oomph he'd be bringing to the bedroom if it got to that point.  Unless he was chatting you up in the freezer section.

But he has to know how to use the oomph.

[Opti]

Well this is new. The thread title is how to prevent rape, yet it appears

we've moved on to Hickle and MJ2 picking up the opposite sex in grocery stores.

[milee]

Mar 19, 2015 21:34:44 GMT -5 Opti said:

Well this is new. The thread title is how to prevent rape, yet it appears

we've moved on to Hickle and MJ2 picking up the opposite sex in grocery stores.

Not only that, but Hickle appears to be naked and MJ is showing a pretty substantial amount of cleavage.  Wonder which one would be considered the aggressor in that grocery store convo? 

[whoisjohngalt]

Mar 19, 2015 13:27:26 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:22:05 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Except I djnt think teaching a kid not to rape is truly going to stop rapes. No more than I think teaching a kid not to murder will stop murders. There are fucked up people out there

Sometimes rapes aren't as clear-cut though.  Teaching a kid not to have sex with someone who is so drunk that they don't know what is going on, for example.  I recently read a blog post that talked about consent that was really illuminating.  I think that consent is the key, while acknowledging who can consent.

I think if you need to explain to your child about not having sex with someone who is not fully there - you are too late.

I've gotten into many fights with my husband bc I've told my kids from day 1 that no one can touch them without their consent.  And I am talking about me or their dad or their grandparents and I am talking about hugs and kisses. 

And they are not allowed to touch unless they ask.

Bc you can't just keep kissing your 3-4-5-6 yr old if he doesn't want you to, but then at 15 tell him that that's the wrong thing to do and he is not allowed to do it to anyone.

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2015 22:22:48 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:27:26 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Sometimes rapes aren't as clear-cut though.  Teaching a kid not to have sex with someone who is so drunk that they don't know what is going on, for example.  I recently read a blog post that talked about consent that was really illuminating.  I think that consent is the key, while acknowledging who can consent.

I think if you need to explain to your child about not having sex with someone who is not fully there - you are too late.

I've gotten into many fights with my husband bc I've told my kids from day 1 that no one can touch them without their consent.  And I am talking about me or their dad or their grandparents and I am talking about hugs and kisses. 

And they are not allowed to touch unless they ask.

Bc you can't just keep kissing your 3-4-5-6 yr old if he doesn't want you to, but then at 15 tell him that that's the wrong thing to do and he is not allowed to do it to anyone.

I hug and kiss my almost 13 year old.  He tells me "No means No Mom!"

He wants it he just won't admit it. 

I guess I'm a child molester.

[Pants]

Mar 19, 2015 22:22:48 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:27:26 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Sometimes rapes aren't as clear-cut though.  Teaching a kid not to have sex with someone who is so drunk that they don't know what is going on, for example.  I recently read a blog post that talked about consent that was really illuminating.  I think that consent is the key, while acknowledging who can consent.

I think if you need to explain to your child about not having sex with someone who is not fully there - you are too late.

I've gotten into many fights with my husband bc I've told my kids from day 1 that no one can touch them without their consent.  And I am talking about me or their dad or their grandparents and I am talking about hugs and kisses. 

And they are not allowed to touch unless they ask.

Bc you can't just keep kissing your 3-4-5-6 yr old if he doesn't want you to, but then at 15 tell him that that's the wrong thing to do and he is not allowed to do it to anyone.

Yes times 1 million. I also have this conversation in reverse with DD. She likes to bathe with me in the tub, and sometimes will touch my boobs or whatever. When I tell her to stop, she asks why, and I explain that mommy doesn't want her to do that right now, and when someone says they don't want to be touched, you don't touch their body anymore because it's their body and it might make them sad or upset if you keep doing it. Just like when she says no kisses or hugs, other people should stop that too so she doesn't get upset. You can and should build the idea of respect for others bodies and others respecting your body early and often. 

[marvholly]

I am SOOOO glad I am beyond raising kids (either sex) these days.

[milee]

Mar 19, 2015 22:22:48 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:27:26 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

I think if you need to explain to your child about not having sex with someone who is not fully there - you are too late.

Yes, if your son is one of that small percent the study talked about that don't care at all, then it's too late.  Although I do think there may be some boys who take the "no means no" thing as the only rule and that's where they get into trouble.  After all, some of the girls who've had 8 tequila shots may still look awake, but aren't coherent enough to say no and actually may be saying "yes, please" and that's where some of the issue begins.

The things I'm concerned about and trying to talk to my sons about are more the nuances of how alcohol and drugs impact judgment for both people in ways that might make consent impossible, etc.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Mar 19, 2015 14:34:15 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Jane and John met in their first week as undergrads at Occidental College. They enrolled in the same freshman seminar, chatted on a field trip, pregamed for a school dance together, and then—on a night when they both claim they were more intoxicated than they had ever been before—they had sex.

According to witnesses, who would be asked to recount the night’s events after Jane filed a sexual misconduct claim against John with the school, Jane “was grabbing John and trying to kiss him”; John was “somewhat responsive” but “seemed pretty indifferent.” But he was also “loud, obnoxious, kind of pushing everyone, going nuts a bit,” slurring his words, and at one point, attempted to move everyone but Jane out of the room. Eventually, both Jane and John removed their own shirts while dancing. When Jane ended up lying on top of John on his bed and grinding her hips on him, a couple of her friends pulled her away and tried to lead her back to her own bed. She was “a little upset and indignant,” one of them reported, but agreed to return to her room.

She wouldn’t stay there. “The second that you’re away from them, come back,” John texted Jane. “Okay,” she replied. “Do you have a condom?” she texted. “Yes,” he said. Jane eventually snuck out of her room, past her friends and her resident adviser, and made her way to John’s room, where she performed oral sex on him (which Jane says she remembers doing, but John says he can’t recall) and they began having sex (which both later said they didn’t remember). When another student knocked on the door to ask if Jane was OK, she responded affirmatively three times. Later, another student opened the door and saw them having sex. According to investigators, this witness “had attended sexual assault prevention training during orientation, and had been told what to do if he witnessed a sexual assault.” So he closed the door and let John and Jane continue, because, he told investigators, “This didn’t look like one to me."

But, a week after the incident, Jane filed a complaint against John with the school. John was ultimately found in violation of Occidental’s sexual misconduct policy, which forbids students from having sexual contact with anyone who is “incapacitated” by drugs or alcohol. John was expelled, the harshest possible punishment for students found responsible for sexual assault on campus. Then, he filed suit against Occidental, alleging that the school unfairly applied its sexual misconduct policy based on gender. (The suit refers to the students as just John Doe and Jane Doe, to preserve their anonymity.) As the lawsuit puts it: “John is being expelled because he is male; Jane Doe is not because she is female.”

They both have consensual drunken sex that neither can remember, but he's a rapist?  That's pretty fucked up.  At the very least they both raped each other, since they both had sex with somebody too drunk to consent, and they should have both been expelled.  However, is it even possible for two people to both rape each other at the same time?  I mean... really?  At that point don't you just look at it as a regrettable hookup and move on?

Yep. 

[Deleted]

A little off topic, but this was the post on from a feminist message board I like on FB

I need feminism.. I need equality because I just read an article about a men who was raped and 99% of the comments where either making fun of him it saying he is lucky and should enjoy it. And lots of these comments were from women..

So feminists do try to help men.

[whoisjohngalt]

Mar 20, 2015 5:51:59 GMT -5 milee said:

Mar 19, 2015 22:22:48 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

I think if you need to explain to your child about not having sex with someone who is not fully there - you are too late.

Yes, if your son is one of that small percent the study talked about that don't care at all, then it's too late.  Although I do think there may be some boys who take the "no means no" thing as the only rule and that's where they get into trouble.  After all, some of the girls who've had 8 tequila shots may still look awake, but aren't coherent enough to say no and actually may be saying "yes, please" and that's where some of the issue begins.

The things I'm concerned about and trying to talk to my sons about are more the nuances of how alcohol and drugs impact judgment for both people in ways that might make consent impossible, etc.

As you know, i am nowhere near drugs and alcohol conversations with my kids yet.  But I already started brainwashing  teaching them all about personal responsibility and the whole "you have a brain, no one made you do it" mantra.

But as far as someone saying yes after 8 tequila shots - well......can the other person really be blamed?

That being said, the consent thing aside, I  will be telling my children that having sex should be an activity fully enjoyed by all parties involved.  And not when one of the parties might not even remember it the next day.

But that all is in the future.

My main goal right now is to get my youngest out of diapers.  6.5 yrs of non-stop diaper changing is making me a bit....cranky

[whoisjohngalt]

Mar 19, 2015 23:41:48 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Mar 19, 2015 22:22:48 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

I think if you need to explain to your child about not having sex with someone who is not fully there - you are too late.

I've gotten into many fights with my husband bc I've told my kids from day 1 that no one can touch them without their consent.  And I am talking about me or their dad or their grandparents and I am talking about hugs and kisses. 

And they are not allowed to touch unless they ask.

Bc you can't just keep kissing your 3-4-5-6 yr old if he doesn't want you to, but then at 15 tell him that that's the wrong thing to do and he is not allowed to do it to anyone.

I hug and kiss my almost 13 year old.  He tells me "No means No Mom!"

He wants it he just won't admit it. 

I guess I'm a child molester.

There is a rule in our house  - "no throwing things".  Last week I got VERY pissed off at two of my hooligans and threw one of their toys across the room.  I knew where I was aiming so I knew I wasn't going to hit anyone or damage anything.

An hour later my oldest (who is 6.5) gave me the whole "you know, mom, you always teach us not to throw, you tell us that all the time, but then you just did it, how can we listen to you, why can you do it and we can't" speech. 

The LAST thing I need is to have this happening about touching and kissing, etc.  So, it's easier for me not to do it with them.

My husband also thinks it's not a big deal, and fights me on it. 

One more example.  When my two oldest were younger, I automatically took things out of their hands - whatever I didn't want them to have.  It took me FOREVER to teach them not to do that to each other later on.  They would just grab toys and other things out of each other's hands.  I realized what was happening and never did that with my youngest.  And it was 100 times easier to get that concept into his head.

While I don't think it works 100% there is something to be said about modeling the behaviour you want your children to inherent. 

[billisonboard]

Parents, don't worry that your kids never listen to a thing you say. Worry that they never miss a thing you do.

(Something I heard once)

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 20, 2015 7:02:04 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Mar 19, 2015 14:34:15 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

They both have consensual drunken sex that neither can remember, but he's a rapist?  That's pretty fucked up.  At the very least they both raped each other, since they both had sex with somebody too drunk to consent, and they should have both been expelled.  However, is it even possible for two people to both rape each other at the same time?  I mean... really?  At that point don't you just look at it as a regrettable hookup and move on?

Yep. 

And this is the kind of "rape" that I consider BS. And if I had a son and some drunken Ho had him charged with rape, I would have him also charge her with rape...if he was drunk then he obviously couldn't give informed consent t and therefor was raped!

Real rape is devestating to a women but the BS rape charges just piss me off because it lessons the severity of actual rape

[The Captain]

Mar 20, 2015 8:28:41 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 20, 2015 7:02:04 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Yep. 

And this is the kind of "rape" that I consider BS. And if I had a son and some drunken Ho had him charged with rape, I would have him also charge her with rape...if he was drunk then he obviously couldn't give informed consent t and therefor was raped!

Real rape is devestating to a women but the BS rape charges just piss me off because it lessons the severity of actual rape

What if the "drunken ho" was not sober but your son was?

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2015 22:22:48 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:27:26 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Sometimes rapes aren't as clear-cut though.  Teaching a kid not to have sex with someone who is so drunk that they don't know what is going on, for example.  I recently read a blog post that talked about consent that was really illuminating.  I think that consent is the key, while acknowledging who can consent.

I think if you need to explain to your child about not having sex with someone who is not fully there - you are too late.

I've gotten into many fights with my husband bc I've told my kids from day 1 that no one can touch them without their consent.  And I am talking about me or their dad or their grandparents and I am talking about hugs and kisses. 

And they are not allowed to touch unless they ask.

Bc you can't just keep kissing your 3-4-5-6 yr old if he doesn't want you to, but then at 15 tell him that that's the wrong thing to do and he is not allowed to do it to anyone.

I completely agree with this and it is what I practise. There have been times kids have played shy with me and didn't want to hug good bye or something. Sometimes the parents urge them to anyway, all very well intentioned, and I always say no. They don't have to hug me, I know we are friends.

[swamp]

Mar 19, 2015 14:58:34 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 19, 2015 14:44:01 GMT -5 imawino said:

So you're saying it should truly be unthinkable to have a discussion about any sort of crime without ever talking about what the victim did wrong? It's NEVER okay to have one single discussion about rape that does not turn into what the women should be doing to prevent being raped?  And for that matter, aren't there scenarios where the woman actually does everything right and still ends up getting raped?  Aren't there scenarios where the house was indeed locked and someone got robbed anyway? 

I'm trying to quit this thread!

I think it is crazy to think that talking to boys as they grow will prevent true rape. Maybe the debatable rape (too drunk to give informed consent) but even that I'm not so sure about.

There are good parents and there are shitty parents. Of course good parents will raise teach their sons the right things about women, rape, etc. just like good parents would teach their kids not to murder, steal, etc. but all of these things continue to happen on a daily basis. Not all kids have good parents and even some kids with good parents turn out to be awful people.

I think it is great that mothers are teaching their sons right...but you all are delusional if you think that is enough to stop rape, murder, theft, etx

Too drunk to give consent is true rape. 

Boys need to be aware that if she's drunk, you might want to look elsewhere as you could find yourself in a heap of trouble.  

Too drunk to give consent is a "he said/she said" case, and I don't want my kid in front of a jury where his life depends on a jury believing him.   

I want my son to be safe too.

[swamp]

Mar 20, 2015 8:28:41 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 20, 2015 7:02:04 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Yep. 

And this is the kind of "rape" that I consider BS. And if I had a son and some drunken Ho had him charged with rape, I would have him also charge her with rape...if he was drunk then he obviously couldn't give informed consent t and therefor was raped!

Real rape is devestating to a women but the BS rape charges just piss me off because it lessons the severity of actual rape

You may consider it BS. However, legally it's still a felony that can get you spending most of your life in prison. I think it's important we talk to our sons about the consequences of sex with a drunk woman.

[TheHaitian]

So if they were both drunk, both did not remember anything and both wake up butt naked the next morning in a room.

Who raped who?

[ArchietheDragon]

I think for most "good" kids alcohol is the biggest issue. College should ban alcohol and have a pot only policy.

[swamp]

Mar 20, 2015 8:45:55 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

So if they were both drunk, both did not remember anything and both wake up butt naked the next morning in a room.

Who raped who?

Not sure, and I don't want my kid to be the one caught in this mess.

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 20, 2015 8:44:00 GMT -5 swamp said:

Mar 20, 2015 8:28:41 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

And this is the kind of "rape" that I consider BS. And if I had a son and some drunken Ho had him charged with rape, I would have him also charge her with rape...if he was drunk then he obviously couldn't give informed consent t and therefor was raped!

Real rape is devestating to a women but the BS rape charges just piss me off because it lessons the severity of actual rape

You may consider it BS. However, legally it's still a felony that can get you spending most of your life in prison. I think it's important we talk to our sons about the consequences of sex with a drunk woman.

I don't understand how this is a fair law. So a girl can have sex with a drunk guy and it is fine but not the reverse?

[swamp]

Mar 20, 2015 8:48:58 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Mar 20, 2015 8:44:00 GMT -5 swamp said:

You may consider it BS. However, legally it's still a felony that can get you spending most of your life in prison. I think it's important we talk to our sons about the consequences of sex with a drunk woman.

I don't understand how this is a fair law. So a girl can have sex with a drunk guy and it is fine but not the reverse?

No, it's a gender neutral law, but girls are more likely to file a complaint.

[Deleted]

Mar 20, 2015 8:21:03 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Mar 19, 2015 23:41:48 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I hug and kiss my almost 13 year old.  He tells me "No means No Mom!"

He wants it he just won't admit it. 

I guess I'm a child molester.

There is a rule in our house  - "no throwing things".  Last week I got VERY pissed off at two of my hooligans and threw one of their toys across the room.  I knew where I was aiming so I knew I wasn't going to hit anyone or damage anything.

An hour later my oldest (who is 6.5) gave me the whole "you know, mom, you always teach us not to throw, you tell us that all the time, but then you just did it, how can we listen to you, why can you do it and we can't" speech. 

The LAST thing I need is to have this happening about touching and kissing, etc.  So, it's easier for me not to do it with them.

My husband also thinks it's not a big deal, and fights me on it. 

One more example.  When my two oldest were younger, I automatically took things out of their hands - whatever I didn't want them to have.  It took me FOREVER to teach them not to do that to each other later on.  They would just grab toys and other things out of each other's hands.  I realized what was happening and never did that with my youngest.  And it was 100 times easier to get that concept into his head.

While I don't think it works 100% there is something to be said about modeling the behaviour you want your children to inherent. 

Well, I don't want my kids to throw things or grab toys from others, but I do want them to hug their kids when they have them even when they're being totally unlovable.

I guess it goes back to my own childhood.  I'm 46 years old and my mother has never hugged me.  Not once.  I remember times when I was a horrible teen lashing out and angry.  We would be yelling at each other and inside I was just begging for her to come up and hug me.  I would have probably fought it, but I really wanted her to do it anyhow.

I don't mean I'll hug my teen in front of his friends or make my 4 year old kiss me goodbye at school.  But when things are getting heated at home sometimes I do demand a time out hug and they are often not real cool with the idea of hugging me at the time. But, seriously, nearly every time this snaps us both back to more rational thinking. 

[Lizard Queen]

Mar 19, 2015 22:22:48 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Mar 19, 2015 13:27:26 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Sometimes rapes aren't as clear-cut though.  Teaching a kid not to have sex with someone who is so drunk that they don't know what is going on, for example.  I recently read a blog post that talked about consent that was really illuminating.  I think that consent is the key, while acknowledging who can consent.

I think if you need to explain to your child about not having sex with someone who is not fully there - you are too late.

I've gotten into many fights with my husband bc I've told my kids from day 1 that no one can touch them without their consent.  And I am talking about me or their dad or their grandparents and I am talking about hugs and kisses. 

And they are not allowed to touch unless they ask.

Bc you can't just keep kissing your 3-4-5-6 yr old if he doesn't want you to, but then at 15 tell him that that's the wrong thing to do and he is not allowed to do it to anyone.

You're fighting against media/movies showing how funny drunk sex is, and perhaps peer pressure saying similar things as well.  

Of course, you wouldn't start teaching them as teens, but you should reinforce it.  As the story WisconsinBeth shared, its not always cut and dry.  Teach them to cover their asses as well, because, IMO, Jane raped John, yet he was the one expelled.