Offensive terms?

[teen persuasion]

As a spin off of the other thread, I'm wondering what you all think of this: a local HS has been asked to change its mascot/name, as Redskins is offensive to Native Americans.

 There has been a lot of debate about it, and the school board finally voted to change.  This morning there is backlash from students, who obviously view the name with pride, and do not use the name in a derogatory fashion.  There are quite a few reservations in our area, so there are Native American students in certain districts, but probably not many in this particular district.

What do you think?

[cronewitch]

It isn't any worse that some others we had like Chiefs or Braves or even Fighting Irish it leads to cartoon images and stupid things like the Tomahawk Chop which could be offensive. Seems wrong to need to change the name of existing teams that didn't mean to be offensive but in the future we should avoid naming teams after groups of people and stick to naming them after animals like Beavers and Ducks or hosiery colors like Red Stockings or White Sox.

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2015 7:55:21 GMT -5 cronewitch said:

It isn't any worse that some others we had like Chiefs or Braves or even Fighting Irish it leads to cartoon images and stupid things like the Tomahawk Chop which could be offensive. Seems wrong to need to change the name of existing teams that didn't mean to be offensive but in the future we should avoid naming teams after groups of people and stick to naming them after animals like Beavers and Ducks or hosiery colors like Red Stockings or White Sox.

Like my cousin's high school team.  The Screaming Chickens. 

[Phoenix84]

Personally, I don't find it offensive. It does seem we have a hyper sensitive culture when Redskins and restarted are deemed horribly offensive. I'd just as soon not change it.

[Shooby]

A team name is meant to convey respect and honor. Your team name isn't something derogartory. You don't call yourselves the Losers or the Screw ups, etc. It's an honorary name. But, yeah, if the Native Americans want all references removed about them from society ,then fine. Change the name. Who cares?

[973beachbum]

This is one of those words that I can't find any redeeming value to.  At best it is not horribly offensive to people who aren't native American's. 

Does anyone here really think it is a compliment to call a Native American  a Redskin?

[Shooby]

Yes. The point of that name is denote bravery and integrity. But, like I said, if they want all those names removed from society, then fine and dandy. And, it would be a heyday for all those teams to sell new merchandise with a new name.

[midjd]

The point of that name is denote bravery and integrity.

Are you sure about that? I can't think of any other nickname based on the color of one's skin that isn't meant to be demeaning or offensive. 

[teen persuasion]

Nice list.  Some team mascots can be inspiring, while some are just so so (my HS was Monarchs, eh it was an all girls school).  My college mascot was not on that list, but I like that it's unique - Golden Griffin.  Some of the animal ones get silly - our local district are the Rams, but the girls' teams are the Lady Rams.  Umm, this is a rural area, the kids know that Lady Ram is oxymoronic.

[zibazinski]

Well, the Seminole Indian tribe has no issue with FSU. Have you seen the beginning of their football games? An Indian in full head dress and costume rides out on a paint pony with a flaming arrow thrown into the ground. The chant is accompanied by fans making a tomahawk gesture as in its coming down on your head. This years happens to be an actual Indian. But not always.

[Ombud]

We were the Cal Bears ... Berkeley has a hard time being anything but socially conservative. Stanford had to change their name to something to do with trees

Boys go to a school with 'Ugly Eagles' as their team name so they kids just shortened it to the Uglies.
Guess ya don't want to offend eagles? 

[ArchietheDragon]

Our new AAA baseball team in Hartford just got named the Yard Goats.  

It was a big topic on local talk radio and someone called up and said it was a demeaning term to railroad workers.  LOL.   

[Lizard Queen]

I think being chosen as a mascot is kind of honorary, but being called a certain skin color, such as red or yellow, is probably not so much.  I kind of get being offended by "Redskins", but I don't get being offended by "Indians".

[ArchietheDragon]

Mar 19, 2015 9:09:31 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

I think being chosen as a mascot is kind of honorary, but being called a certain skin color, such as red or yellow, is probably not so much.  I kind of get being offended by "Redskins", but I don't get being offended by "Indians".

I don't think "Indians" itself is a demeaning team name, but when it is accompanied by a team logos like the following, then the name becomes a demeaning sterotype.

[Formerly SK]

My small high school just went through this - went from Redskins to Redbirds (I think).  It caused a huge controversy and of course will cost a ton of money to erase the Redskins name from the school (gym floor, outdoor benches, signage, etc).  It took over a year of the board's time.  It all seemed really sad to me because the buildings in general are old/neglected, the academics are in the toilet, and all this effort was made for a name change.  Talk about missing the big picture.  So now it's a failing school with a better name. 

[jlbear71]

My high school is one of the more prominent ones in the news for their football team name and mascot, Neshaminy Redskins. 

I am proud of my school and will consider myself a Neshaminy Redskin because that is what we were called at the time.  I would not call myself by any other name.

That said, I would be proud to call them whatever they call themselves.  I do understand the controversy and why it should be changed.  I am glad that the students are sticking up for what they believe in.

[billisonboard]

Mar 19, 2015 8:59:48 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

... An Indian in full head dress and costume rides out on a paint pony with a flaming arrow thrown into the ground. ...

Is it "(a)n Indian" or can a person of any heritage get the job as mascot?

[billisonboard]

Mar 19, 2015 9:30:41 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

My small high school just went through this - went from Redskins to Redbirds (I think).  It caused a huge controversy ...

Hell, I was on a school district building committee and one guy talked about how his wife cried when the front facade on her old elementary school was changed.

[ArchietheDragon]

Mar 19, 2015 9:46:35 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Mar 19, 2015 9:30:41 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

My small high school just went through this - went from Redskins to Redbirds (I think).  It caused a huge controversy ...

Hell, I was on a school district building committee and one guy talked about how his wife cried when the front facade on her old elementary school was changed.

People are very sentimental. 

[Tennesseer]

I have zero sentimentality toward my old high school's sport's team name and for us students in general, 'The Panthers'.  Hell, I barely have any sentimentality for the official name of my high school.  High school was all of four of my sixty-three year of life.  A brief moment of time.

Panthers don't care or know their species name is used for a sport's team name. American Indians do know and many find the slang word, redskins, insulting. 

Therefore, I would defer to the majority opinion of American Indians whether the name is acceptable to them or not.

Words and their definition and usage change over time. Redskins is one of those words.

[Formerly SK]

Mar 19, 2015 9:33:45 GMT -5 @tbird said:

I'm not sure that it is possible to say that something is categorically "not offensive", if in fact, there are a number of persons who are offended. By definition, it is offensive.

it kind of reminds me about this letter to one of the dear prudie or ask amy columns, whereby someone was "frank and honest" and every one around them always taken offense, received counselling at work, mad relatives etc. and why is everyone so sensitive these days? The answer was something along the lines if a lot of people in different situations find you offensive, it isn't them, it's you.

If there was a counsel of native american people/tribes and they say that this is offensive. It means that they are offended. En mass.

I would listen to them.

The problem (at least when my HS went through the change) is that not all Native Americans were offended.  Some local tribes were, some weren't.  There wasn't a clear consensus, so it was difficult to tell what the right thing to do was.  Just because a group of people share a heritage doesn't mean that they'll all agree on something. 

[tskeeter]

The heck with team names that contain references to Native Americans.  I think you should worry about names that are offensive to much larger demographic groups first.  I want Notre Dame to change the name it's athletic teams go by.  Certainly "Fighing Irish" has derogatory connotations about the behavior of Irish people to 70 million people of Irish heritage around the world.  (There are only 5.2 million Native Americans.)  After all, Fighting Irish is only marginally better than if you referred to Notre Dame athletic teams as the Drunken Micks.  

Personally, I don't see names such as Redskins, Warriors, Chiefs, or tribal names, such as the UND Sioux or the Florida State Seminoles, as offensive. But, I do wonder why I've never heard of any initiatives to changes names that might be offensive to white groups (such as the Irish), only non-white groups?  Are we being racist in not applying the same standards to predominantly white groups as we apply to non-white groups?  After all, it's not just non-white groups that have been subjected to discrimination in the US.  When DW's Grandmother arrived in NYC from Ireland in 1912, she found she could not get a job in NYC.  She found signs in the windows of businesses that read:  Help Wanted - Irish Need Not Apply.  To me, that seems like pretty blatant discrimination.  

[billisonboard]

Mar 19, 2015 12:05:16 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

... Certainly "Fighing Irish" has derogatory connotations about the behavior of Irish people ...

Or does it identify a sub-group within the totality of Irish people?

[tskeeter]

Mar 19, 2015 12:13:48 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Mar 19, 2015 12:05:16 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

... Certainly "Fighing Irish" has derogatory connotations about the behavior of Irish people ...

Or does it identify a sub-group within the totality of Irish people?

By the same token, not all Native Americans were/are warriors or chiefs.  Nor are they all Sioux or Seminole.

[billisonboard]

Mar 19, 2015 12:16:00 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Mar 19, 2015 12:13:48 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Or does it identify a sub-group within the totality of Irish people?

By the same token, not all Native Americans were/are warriors or chiefs.  Nor are they all Sioux or Seminole.

Not all warriors or chiefs are Native Americans. All Sioux are Sioux and all Seminoles are Seminoles.

[tskeeter]

Mar 19, 2015 12:21:36 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Mar 19, 2015 12:16:00 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

By the same token, not all Native Americans were/are warriors or chiefs.  Nor are they all Sioux or Seminole.

Not all warriors or chiefs are Native Americans. All Sioux are Sioux and all Seminoles are Seminoles.

However, all are, as you put it, a sub-group of the totality.

[midjd]

Personally, I don't see names such as Redskins, Warriors, Chiefs, or tribal names, such as the UND Sioux or the Florida State Seminoles, as offensive. But, I do wonder why I've never heard of any initiatives to changes names that might be offensive to white groups (such as the Irish), only non-white groups? Are we being racist in not applying the same standards to predominantly white groups as we apply to non-white groups? After all, it's not just non-white groups that have been subjected to discrimination in the US. When DW's Grandmother arrived in NYC from Ireland in 1912, she found she could not get a job in NYC. She found signs in the windows of businesses that read: Help Wanted - Irish Need Not Apply. To me, that seems like pretty blatant discrimination.

Who is the "we" being racist in not applying the same standards? If you're offended by a name, take action to change it. If you're not, don't. I'm not sure what is stopping a group of Irish (or people of Irish descent) from lobbying to change Notre Dame's mascot, if they are indeed offended by it.

I've lived in Indiana for more than 20 years and work with several UND graduates. Although I can see how the Fighting Irish could be an offensive name, in reality no one seems to be bothered by it. If they are, they're pretty quiet about it.

Contrast that to the situation in the OP, in which enough people were offended that they took action to change the name.

[973beachbum]

Mar 19, 2015 10:34:47 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I have zero sentimentality toward my old high school's sport's team name and for us students in general, 'The Panthers'.  Hell, I barely have any sentimentality for the official name of my high school.  High school was all of four of my sixty-three year of life.  A brief moment of time.

Panthers don't care or know their species name is used for a sport's team name. American Indians do know and many find the slang word, redskins, insulting. 

Therefore, I would defer to the majority opinion of American Indians whether the name is acceptable to them or not.

Words and their definition and usage change over time. Redskins is one of those words.

Yeah I don't ever remember Redskins being used any differently.  When I was a kid it was mostly used by the "good guys"read white people,  in movies to describe the savages about to attack them.  Yeah that was totally meant as a compliment.

I am actually fairly neutral about the word when I think about it here in theory reading it.  But on the other hand DH and obviously the kids are part Native American.  If someone were to call my kids that in my hearing I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be neutral about it.  

[Tennesseer]

Mar 19, 2015 12:05:16 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

The heck with team names that contain references to Native Americans.  I think you should worry about names that are offensive to much larger demographic groups first.  I want Notre Dame to change the name it's athletic teams go by.  Certainly "Fighing Irish" has derogatory connotations about the behavior of Irish people to 70 million people of Irish heritage around the world.  (There are only 5.2 million Native Americans.)  After all, Fighting Irish is only marginally better than if you referred to Notre Dame athletic teams as the Drunken Micks.  

Personally, I don't see names such as Redskins, Warriors, Chiefs, or tribal names, such as the UND Sioux or the Florida State Seminoles, as offensive. But, I do wonder why I've never heard of any initiatives to changes names that might be offensive to white groups (such as the Irish), only non-white groups?  Are we being racist in not applying the same standards to predominantly white groups as we apply to non-white groups?  After all, it's not just non-white groups that have been subjected to discrimination in the US.  When DW's Grandmother arrived in NYC from Ireland in 1912, she found she could not get a job in NYC.  She found signs in the windows of businesses that read:  Help Wanted - Irish Need Not Apply.  To me, that seems like pretty blatant discrimination.  

And it was 100 years ago. Where do you now find signs like that in the U.S. today?

If you think some team names defame white people, well do something about it. Take that first step.

[billisonboard]

Mar 19, 2015 12:43:06 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Mar 19, 2015 12:21:36 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Not all warriors or chiefs are Native Americans. All Sioux are Sioux and all Seminoles are Seminoles.

However, all are, as you put it, a sub-group of the totality.

There are Irish who are "Fighting" so Fighting Irish isn't representing something that doesn't exist nor representing those Irish who are not Fighting.