Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Mar 19, 2015 14:47:02 GMT -5
Back when I was in HS, this hippy PC thug of a history teacher had a poster on his classroom wall, with various "alternative" sports team names like The Cleveland Caucasians, and The Witchita Whities, captioned with the statement "How would you feel?" I guess it was designed to invoke feelings of guilt and remorse, but I found it absolutely HI-LARIOUS! I would LOVE to be a member of The Witchita Whities. People like to get all butt-hurt and pull cards about stuff like this too often nowadays. It's words. Suck it up. If words are the worst thing to ever happen to you, then you won the f*ckin' lottery.
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Mar 19, 2015 16:30:59 GMT -5
It isn't any worse that some others we had like Chiefs or Braves or even Fighting Irish it leads to cartoon images and stupid things like the Tomahawk Chop which could be offensive. Seems wrong to need to change the name of existing teams that didn't mean to be offensive but in the future we should avoid naming teams after groups of people and stick to naming them after animals like Beavers and Ducks or hosiery colors like Red Stockings or White Sox. Not to seem insensitive, but quite frankly, I think this is PC gone wild...first world problems. Is the South going to raise a rebel yell about the NY Yankees...LOL Such misplaced indignation. There are much bigger fish to fry.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Mar 19, 2015 17:16:39 GMT -5
I'm a just leave this here... Okay, I have no idea how to put a video in my post. So I guess I'll just link to the Daily Show segment on the Redskins name. Yes, this is about the pro team, but the same argument exists for high school teams.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Mar 19, 2015 17:45:45 GMT -5
I actually think 973beachbum has the right test for figuring out if something is offensive or not. If your children fit in the group being described, and called them by that name, would you smile and say thank you for complimenting your children, or would you take it as an insult? Or, would you go up to a friend who fit in to the group being described and call them that term? If you had a Native American friend, would you walk up and say "hey, how's my favorite redskin doing?"
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 19, 2015 18:02:02 GMT -5
I think all of the political correctness will eventually make it so our mascots are objects. The WNBA is my example of a new league created with non-offensive mascots in mind.
Atlanta Dream Chicago Sky Connecticut Sun Indiana Fever New York Liberty Washington Mystics Western Conference Los Angeles Sparks Minnesota Lynx Phoenix Mercury San Antonio Stars Seattle Storm Tulsa Shock
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Mar 19, 2015 18:16:27 GMT -5
How do you find something non-offensive to everyone? After the Redskin controversy and debate began, someone started a petition to remove references to Buffalo, since that was also offensive. linkTell the Mayor and city council of Buffalo, New York, and Berkshire Hathaway, owner of the Buffalo News, to change the racist titles of the municipality and news outlets, respectively, to no longer include the word "Buffalo".
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 19, 2015 18:42:23 GMT -5
I think all of the political correctness will eventually make it so our mascots are objects. The WNBA is my example of a new league created with non-offensive mascots in mind. Atlanta Dream Chicago Sky Connecticut Sun Indiana Fever New York Liberty Washington Mystics Western Conference Los Angeles Sparks Minnesota Lynx Phoenix Mercury San Antonio Stars Seattle Storm Tulsa Shock Forget all those and start watching the WNBA people!!!!
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 19, 2015 18:42:38 GMT -5
How do you find something non-offensive to everyone? After the Redskin controversy and debate began, someone started a petition to remove references to Buffalo, since that was also offensive. linkTell the Mayor and city council of Buffalo, New York, and Berkshire Hathaway, owner of the Buffalo News, to change the racist titles of the municipality and news outlets, respectively, to no longer include the word "Buffalo".Doesn't look too upset to me.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 19, 2015 18:43:21 GMT -5
Chicago Sky #1!
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Mar 19, 2015 18:56:25 GMT -5
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 19, 2015 20:00:58 GMT -5
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Mar 19, 2015 22:14:08 GMT -5
The problem (at least when my HS went through the change) is that not all Native Americans were offended. Some local tribes were, some weren't. There wasn't a clear consensus, so it was difficult to tell what the right thing to do was. Just because a group of people share a heritage doesn't mean that they'll all agree on something. Why is that a problem? If a couple of tribes are offended, then a large number of people are offended and then it is, by definition, offensive. Groups do not need to come to consensus on these things. If a sizable group is offended, offense has occurred. Theoretically I agree with you. It's the application that is difficult to agree on. High poverty district with half a dozen Windows 97 computers, no art, no sports until high school, etc. and they spend a relative fortune on changing their mascot name. It's not that I disagree with the name change, it's that in my order of priorities having technology/art is SIGNIFICANTLY more important than changing a mascot that only 50% of local Native Americans consider offensive. It wasn't even that any students/parents were asking for the change - the desire was from the board. Now the district (one elementary, one MS, one HS) has buildings that don't heat very well, has obsolete computers, no art, but a new name. THAT is wrong IMO. But I guess they feel good about themselves now that they are no longer offensive.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 19, 2015 22:51:15 GMT -5
How can a Buffalo be racist? It is an animal. I don't think most people celebrate the European oppression of native americans when they hear the word "Buffalo." I think they think of the animal. I read the petition and it sounds pretty far fetched to me. But, I'm sure at some point someone else didn't "get" how certain other things can be racist.
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siralynn
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Post by siralynn on Mar 19, 2015 22:51:52 GMT -5
As a white person, I don't think I'm equipped to understand how personal the offense can be for Native Americans and that in general, it's probably appropriate to change all of the controversial mascots/names. It's just sports, for crying out loud. It's not any worse that franchises changing names when they move to new cities, or the Buccaneers or Seahawks dumping creamsicle and pastels blue/green/silver in favor of pewter/red and navy/neon green.
My middle school went from the Indians to the Wildcats at some point well after I graduated. And dumped a logo that was similar in many ways to the Cleveland Indians one.
And I graduated from Illinois a few years before Chief Illiniwek was retired. I liked the 3-in-1 and think the "I" logo they chose to replace the Chief Illiniwek logo is a little lame, but guess what, all the white people survived the change and I think ultimately the school is better for it. (Fighting Illini was kept because the origins are not related to Chief Illiniwek, but rather soldiers from Illinois who died in WWI.)
My current difficulty is rooting for the Chicago Blackhawks. I love hockey and love the team, but I do wish they'd change the logo. I don't own very much Blackhawks gear because of it. It's not easy to find gear without the giant Indian head on it. Personally, I think they've got a potentially easy transition to some bad-ass bird logo, but I doubt it'll happen anytime soon.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 20, 2015 7:56:55 GMT -5
Once we change all the names to animal names, then PETA will be laying in the ground in front of stadiums.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Mar 20, 2015 8:45:36 GMT -5
How can a Buffalo be racist? It is an animal. I don't think most people celebrate the European oppression of native americans when they hear the word "Buffalo." I think they think of the animal. I read the petition and it sounds pretty far fetched to me. But, I'm sure at some point someone else didn't "get" how certain other things can be racist. Exactly. It is especially ridiculous since the city name has nothing to do with the animal. There were never buffalo in this area. The name is believed to be a corruption of a French phrase meaning "beautiful river/flow" in reference to the Niagara River and Niagara Falls. What's next? Do we also have to rename all of the towns and streets in the area that use Native American words? There are tons: Tonawanda, Cheektowaga, anything Seneca, Niagara, Chautauqua, Cattaraugus... Or would removing the names be racist?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Mar 20, 2015 9:28:40 GMT -5
I think there's a pretty big distinction between the term "Redskin" and descriptive Native American words.
It's like the difference between Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard and Angry Black Guy Boulevard (to use Dark's example).
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 20, 2015 9:34:11 GMT -5
I think there's a pretty big distinction between the term "Redskin" and descriptive Native American words. It's like the difference between Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard and Angry Black Guy Boulevard (to use Dark's example). But how big is the difference between Tonawanda and Buffalo? I'm totally fine with getting rid of all the Indian references in sports, but I'm pretty sure more and more words will be deemed offensive as we move forward.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 9:39:18 GMT -5
Exactly. It is especially ridiculous since the city name has nothing to do with the animal. There were never buffalo in this area. The name is believed to be a corruption of a French phrase meaning "beautiful river/flow" in reference to the Niagara River and Niagara Falls. What's next? Do we also have to rename all of the towns and streets in the area that use Native American words? There are tons: Tonawanda, Cheektowaga, anything Seneca, Niagara, Chautauqua, Cattaraugus... Or would removing the names be racist? I'm not sure why you are equating indian words for places with a derogatory term for indian people? I see teen persuasion equating Indian words with the effort to change the name of the town of Buffalo.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 20, 2015 9:41:42 GMT -5
How can a Buffalo be racist? It is an animal. I don't think most people celebrate the European oppression of native americans when they hear the word "Buffalo." I think they think of the animal. I read the petition and it sounds pretty far fetched to me. But, I'm sure at some point someone else didn't "get" how certain other things can be racist. Exactly. It is especially ridiculous since the city name has nothing to do with the animal. There were never buffalo in this area. The name is believed to be a corruption of a French phrase meaning "beautiful river/flow" in reference to the Niagara River and Niagara Falls. What's next? Do we also have to rename all of the towns and streets in the area that use Native American words? There are tons: Tonawanda, Cheektowaga, anything Seneca, Niagara, Chautauqua, Cattaraugus... Or would removing the names be racist? I looked at the Change.org website for Buffalo and after 3 or so weeks, about 200 signed the petition. I could almost believe the petition was meant as satire.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 20, 2015 9:43:31 GMT -5
If Buffalo is so offensive that it needs to be changed, we might as well assign alphanumeric codes to all of our cities, because it will all be subject to controversy at some later time.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 9:47:33 GMT -5
Exactly. It is especially ridiculous since the city name has nothing to do with the animal. There were never buffalo in this area. The name is believed to be a corruption of a French phrase meaning "beautiful river/flow" in reference to the Niagara River and Niagara Falls. What's next? Do we also have to rename all of the towns and streets in the area that use Native American words? There are tons: Tonawanda, Cheektowaga, anything Seneca, Niagara, Chautauqua, Cattaraugus... Or would removing the names be racist? I looked at the Change.org website for Buffalo and after 3 or so weeks, about 200 signed the petition. I could almost believe the petition was meant as satire. I attempted to find more info on the person who started the petition and didn't find anything I was sure was that person.
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andreawick
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Post by andreawick on Mar 20, 2015 9:53:18 GMT -5
The heck with team names that contain references to Native Americans. I think you should worry about names that are offensive to much larger demographic groups first. I want Notre Dame to change the name it's athletic teams go by. Certainly "Fighing Irish" has derogatory connotations about the behavior of Irish people to 70 million people of Irish heritage around the world. (There are only 5.2 million Native Americans.) After all, Fighting Irish is only marginally better than if you referred to Notre Dame athletic teams as the Drunken Micks.
Personally, I don't see names such as Redskins, Warriors, Chiefs, or tribal names, such as the UND Sioux or the Florida State Seminoles, as offensive. But, I do wonder why I've never heard of any initiatives to changes names that might be offensive to white groups (such as the Irish), only non-white groups? Are we being racist in not applying the same standards to predominantly white groups as we apply to non-white groups? After all, it's not just non-white groups that have been subjected to discrimination in the US. When DW's Grandmother arrived in NYC from Ireland in 1912, she found she could not get a job in NYC. She found signs in the windows of businesses that read: Help Wanted - Irish Need Not Apply. To me, that seems like pretty blatant discrimination. White people don't care. We have better things to worry about.
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andreawick
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Post by andreawick on Mar 20, 2015 9:54:47 GMT -5
The heck with team names that contain references to Native Americans. I think you should worry about names that are offensive to much larger demographic groups first. I want Notre Dame to change the name it's athletic teams go by. Certainly "Fighing Irish" has derogatory connotations about the behavior of Irish people to 70 million people of Irish heritage around the world. (There are only 5.2 million Native Americans.) After all, Fighting Irish is only marginally better than if you referred to Notre Dame athletic teams as the Drunken Micks.
Personally, I don't see names such as Redskins, Warriors, Chiefs, or tribal names, such as the UND Sioux or the Florida State Seminoles, as offensive. But, I do wonder why I've never heard of any initiatives to changes names that might be offensive to white groups (such as the Irish), only non-white groups? Are we being racist in not applying the same standards to predominantly white groups as we apply to non-white groups? After all, it's not just non-white groups that have been subjected to discrimination in the US. When DW's Grandmother arrived in NYC from Ireland in 1912, she found she could not get a job in NYC. She found signs in the windows of businesses that read: Help Wanted - Irish Need Not Apply. To me, that seems like pretty blatant discrimination. And it was 100 years ago. Where do you now find signs like that in the U.S. today?If you think some team names defame white people, well do something about it. Take that first step. the same place you find signs that say "Negro Only Bathroom" and "Redskins need not apply"
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 20, 2015 10:05:47 GMT -5
I looked at the Change.org website for Buffalo and after 3 or so weeks, about 200 signed the petition. I could almost believe the petition was meant as satire. I attempted to find more info on the person who started the petition and didn't find anything I was sure was that person. I once wrote a satirical letter-to-the-editor about ten years ago to our local paper. In the discussion area of the paper for comments about the individual letters, a few caught the satire but a number did not. I complained to the paper about the exposed human nudity in an art book left open on a table at Borders. The picture was Marcel Duchamp's Nude Descending a Staircase, #2: As I am the only person in West Tennessee with my first and last name, I even received a few anonymous letters to my home from readers telling me it was a free country to read art books at tables at Borders. Some called me a prude.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Mar 20, 2015 10:41:10 GMT -5
Exactly. It is especially ridiculous since the city name has nothing to do with the animal. There were never buffalo in this area. The name is believed to be a corruption of a French phrase meaning "beautiful river/flow" in reference to the Niagara River and Niagara Falls. What's next? Do we also have to rename all of the towns and streets in the area that use Native American words? There are tons: Tonawanda, Cheektowaga, anything Seneca, Niagara, Chautauqua, Cattaraugus... Or would removing the names be racist? I'm not sure why you are equating indian words for places with a derogatory term for indian people? Is Buffalo a derogatory word for Native American? The argument was that the name Buffalo should not be used since some time in the past some people hunted the buffalo to clear lands out west for reservations. IOW, the Native American who started the petition was sensitive just to the use of the word "buffalo". Might he also be sensitive to us using Native American words as place names? Interestingly, he is Navajo, not the Seneca Nation in this area. Does he have a right to object? Your post with the theories for the origin of "Buffalo" was interesting. I've heard a few of those, but certainly not all. The "Beau Fleuve" story is the predominant one here, even if it is probably not true. I feel that this area really doesn't separate Native Americans out for derision, they are part of the larger community. Several NY cities are built on reservation land, the land is leased from the Seneca Nation, so there is a blurring of lines. If you are a non-Native American living in one of those areas OTOH you are a resident of the US and NYS, but you are also living on reservation land, which is a sovereign nation. Locals just learn to differentiate between NYS lands and rez lands as different jurisdictions, not that different from crossing the Peace bridge into Canada. We also recognize the differences as they pertain to businesses - gas and smoke shops and casinos on rez lands. Not better or worse, just different.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 20, 2015 11:16:07 GMT -5
The heck with team names that contain references to Native Americans. I think you should worry about names that are offensive to much larger demographic groups first. I want Notre Dame to change the name it's athletic teams go by. Certainly "Fighing Irish" has derogatory connotations about the behavior of Irish people to 70 million people of Irish heritage around the world. (There are only 5.2 million Native Americans.) After all, Fighting Irish is only marginally better than if you referred to Notre Dame athletic teams as the Drunken Micks.
Personally, I don't see names such as Redskins, Warriors, Chiefs, or tribal names, such as the UND Sioux or the Florida State Seminoles, as offensive. But, I do wonder why I've never heard of any initiatives to changes names that might be offensive to white groups (such as the Irish), only non-white groups? Are we being racist in not applying the same standards to predominantly white groups as we apply to non-white groups? After all, it's not just non-white groups that have been subjected to discrimination in the US. When DW's Grandmother arrived in NYC from Ireland in 1912, she found she could not get a job in NYC. She found signs in the windows of businesses that read: Help Wanted - Irish Need Not Apply. To me, that seems like pretty blatant discrimination. White people don't care. We have better things to worry about. White people don't care because we are the oppressors. It is pretty hard to flap your beak and call foul when you have a disproportional amount of the money and power. It is like watching a sports team who is completely humiliating their opponent and then complaining about some really minor call.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 20, 2015 11:17:34 GMT -5
White people don't care. We have better things to worry about. White people don't care because we are the oppressors. It is pretty hard to flap your beak and call foul when you have a disproportional amount of the money and power. It is like watching a sports team who is completely humiliating their opponent and then complaining about some really minor call. you don't know many Yankees fans.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 20, 2015 11:24:44 GMT -5
Did you know that "Dude" has derived as a derogatory form for Yankee? The song Yankee Doodle Dandy was basically making fun of Americans (they are so stupid, they don't know the difference between a feather in their cap and macaroni.) "Dood" was used for a short-hand insult.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Mar 20, 2015 12:41:48 GMT -5
But the Dude abides!
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