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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 14:52:35 GMT -5
No problem. I agree with her on modeling good behavior - but I also believe you have to enforce good behavior.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 7, 2011 14:52:49 GMT -5
We support them with our money. So its relevant ... I'm not sure what i'm looking for here. We all think they could be doing a better job... and no point in history do i think has there been a time of satisifcation with what public schools were doing... there was always the push to 'do it better'... But i was talking with a friend, she's the unschoooler... no i'll try not to restart that debate... but she feels public school shouldn't exist because its demeaning and debasing and takes away all of children's freedom, and is just a horrible institution. Now, i wish things were bettere differentiated, and practices and expectations were more developmentally appropriate, among other things. I've said that i don't think pushing early academics is great for most kids. And obviously, i don't choose to use it, so i must think i can do it better at home... That said, i think the public school can be a saving grace for some kids. It provides them with an envirnoment and learning that they would never get at home, introduces them to different norms, shows and prepares them for opporutnities they would not otherwise be able to seize. Am i wrong? I don't remember liking public school. I wasted a lot of time there... i didn't learn all that i could... but i didn't think it was purgatory and freedom crippling? Like i said, i'm not sure what i want, so any comments... but did anyone feel that public school ruined them? saved them? I think your friend is an elitist twit. I went to public school, I think I'm doing OK. I am familiar with lots of children for whom school has been a saving grace because their parents weren't the best. Public school has provided them with dental programs, public health screening, socializiation, sports, music, drama, mentoring.
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michelyn8
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Post by michelyn8 on Mar 7, 2011 14:54:48 GMT -5
Homeschooling can be the same way. How many homeschool parents are qualified to teach their children physics or calculus? I would wager that it is considerably less than 25%. By making that choice for your children without having the ability, you are limiting their future potential. I'm aware that some homeschoolers use certain teaching methods or 'class sharing' to help teach more difficult subjects, but this is not always the case. That was one of the reasons I was against home schooling 100% but I've since learned that some parents will join groups for more socialization and some even have their children enrolled in one or two classes somewhere to learn what they (the parent) is unable to teach them.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 7, 2011 14:59:44 GMT -5
Stats, I would actually argue that parents who homeschool (unless they are in some kind of weird cult or religion-obsessed group) will put even more effort into ensuring that their children learn more, since they are so hands-on with their children's education.
No, I am not saying that if kids go to school you don't care about their education, but let's face it, we have a large portion of population who believe that they don't have much responsibility when it comes to education bc "that's what schools are for". And if the school is not doing an adequate the job, the kid gets screwed.
Lena
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 15:01:03 GMT -5
Yes... this is probably just part of my inner struggle. I've been a proponent of unschooling tenets... especially before age 8... I think before 8 kids are not all on the same developmental level, but at that point most catch up... and i don't think we need to cram academics so early, because kids will get it when they are ready to and years of pushing it down their throats won't make them do it any faster/better.... I think kids are motivated when they see real meaning and should have some choice over their studies...
However... i've come to realize i am not an unschooler... I do think kids need structure... i'm not going to apologize for teaching math... and no, my kids are not going to have the freedom to do anything they want at any time... giving them the idea that they can/should isn't just unrealistic, its dangerous... the world will NOT cater to that...
And despite my desire to homeschool for my own kids... i am a proponent of public schools and will continue to fight for them...
Ok... lost it there for a minute... but i'm better now...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 15:03:25 GMT -5
In the past i tend to teach chem/physics when we group school... i'm doing math/writing this spring... but i won't teach group past middle school... i plan on community college or equivalent for higher level science... maybe math too... we'll see...
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Mar 7, 2011 15:10:18 GMT -5
In the past i tend to teach chem/physics when we group school... i'm doing math/writing this spring... but i won't teach group past middle school... i plan on community college or equivalent for higher level science... maybe math too... we'll see... I was going to say this. DH teaches at a local CC and they do get a fair number of home schooled students even before what would otherwise be "normal" college age. For some kids it works out well.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Mar 7, 2011 15:14:28 GMT -5
I'm not much for standardized tests annually, or teaching to them Our educators seem to follow a standard list - teach to the test is bad, one size doesn't fit all, pay for performance brings favoritism, testing is meaningless, yada. In engineering we say that a good problem definition is half of the solution. If you are unable to measure your problem, you cannot define what needs to be fixed. So testing is not meaningless - it may have inaccuracies and problems but it is far better than no metric at all. And if you build a comprehensive test that can provide a measure of competence, then why not teach to the damn test? Pay for performance is unfair? Then I must have missed that part in 35 years of engineering? And I agree with Stats - some home schooled kids are going to get shorted on HS Pre-calc, Geometry, Physics, Statistics. (Note that I said some , not all). And to feed the flaming - the homeschoolers that we know tend to be art-literature oriented, not math - am I wrong?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 7, 2011 15:14:53 GMT -5
"but she feels public school shouldn't exist because its demeaning and debasing and takes away all of children's freedom, and is just a horrible institution."
Ummm.... okay..... what does your friend propose as an alternative for poor children or for children of parents who don't have the time or inclination to "unschool." Those are pretty strong words and I personally write her off as a crackpot.
"That said, i think the public school can be a saving grace for some kids. It provides them with an envirnoment and learning that they would never get at home, introduces them to different norms, shows and prepares them for opporutnities they would not otherwise be able to seize."
"Am i wrong?"
I don't think so. You recognize that public school is the best some kids are going to get, and it's always better than nothing.
"but did anyone feel that public school ruined them? saved them?"
I went to public school from kindergarden through 12th grade, AND went to a public university. I've never felt like I was at a disadvantage educationally. I certainly don't feel "ruined." I can't say I always liked school, but I can't say I hated it. The way I saw it then (and still do) is school is something you have to do. I can say I don't think I'd have been happier anywhere else. If anything I'm glad my public school offered me the chance to take classes I wouldn't normally take, like computer science, astronomy, and meteorology.
I don't feel "saved" either. I'm sure I would have done okay regardless of where I went to school.
In the end, I don't define my education about where I went to school. I twas my own drive and desire to learn that pushed me through. I think where you go to school is far less relevant than things like having a personal desire to learn and parental involvement. That's why I take any statistics about homeschoolers being ahead academically of public schoolers with a grain of salt. By definition, homeschooled kids have parents who care about their education and thus, they would likely suceed when compared with the general population no matter where they went to school. It's just like comparing the U.S education system to countries abroad, we may seem "worse" but not every country mandates everyone go to school until they're 18.
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DVM gone riding
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Post by DVM gone riding on Mar 7, 2011 15:19:40 GMT -5
I attended private schools my whole life-so like homeschooling we took standardized tests every year-really not a biggie-perosanally I LOVED them a) whole day not doing regular boring school work b) they always showed I was really smart-which of course I knew and my parents knew and my teachers knew but I loved ranking 98% all the time c) there is no spelling on standardized testing-the one area I sucked in but then who really cares if you get a C in spelling if you have the highest grade in the class in math???
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Mar 7, 2011 15:22:03 GMT -5
Yet when I said almost the exact same thing in reply #10 no one thought so.
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DVM gone riding
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Post by DVM gone riding on Mar 7, 2011 15:23:42 GMT -5
oped I did running start (WA state program for HS jr/sr to take CC at the CC) for my higher level math/science courses-it worked out great and without question helped me become what I am so I think that is a great idea
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Mar 7, 2011 15:25:28 GMT -5
Lena: I agree that many homeschooler parents are motivated about learning and particularly that there is a huge difference between the 'I want to give my students the best and I am qualified to teach my kids' from the 'Public schools are atheist bastions, so I teach my kids.'
It still doesn't change the fact that a relatively few adults could teach advanced math and science to their children. You have to have some sort of mastery of the material to make a decent teacher, and most adults cannot just become qualified physics teachers in a month. It takes the same learning progression that students must have. I'd trust more students at that age with a great foundation to teach it to themselves. I'm sure many do.
Phil: That is exactly my experience. I knew about ten homeschoolers as an undergraduate who lived in the honors dorm with me. They were well-adjusted, sociable, and bright. Half were either religion or classics majors and only one was a science/math/engineering major. Other students were very political and moved toward political science and wanted to be attorneys. They were so strong in reading and writing skills relative to their math and science skills that they gravitated toward their strength. There is certainly a place for the liberal arts, but I think much more balance is needed.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 7, 2011 15:25:47 GMT -5
"I know... she hates our homeschool laws too... says having to take standardized tests are demeaning and soul crushing... Now i don't think standardized tests mean a whole lot... but that's giving them an awful lot of power..."
Those are pretty strong words. I took my share of standardized tests. I don't remember thinking how sould crushing and demeaning they were. I don't remember thinking how my freedoms were taken away and I was being reduced to a mindless drone.
Your friend's ideas of public school are way out of line with reality. Public schools aren't that bad. Millions of public school kids graduate every year and turn out okay. My guess is either she hated school when she was in it, or has never been to a public school and has convinced herself out of ignorance.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 15:29:15 GMT -5
"the homeschoolers that we know tend to be art-literature oriented, not math - am I wrong? "
No... I think you are correct to a degree at least. That's why i tend to teach math and science when we group school... most parents don't feel its their strong suit... at least by the time we get to middle school. And i see lots of parents tend to skip around a lot trying to find a math curriculum they, parent/student, 'like'... when its probably that they just don't feel comfortable in the content...
I don't like the 'teach to the test' atomosphere because they don't take into account developmental differences, and the suggest all kids will meet a certain standard... and the only way that will happen is if we have one set of low standards... i'd rather track and set different standards/goals... i mean, not all kids are going to end up doing the same thing..... (And we were talking on PM the other day, just cause a kid never rises above an 8th grade reading level is not a horrid thing... given that most stuff for general consumption is at a 5-6th grade level... etc.) But that kid might benefit from mechanical skills in addition to an emphasis on math/language theory...
Here homeschoolers don't test annually... i have to test 3 times, 3rd, 5th, 8th,.... but i think the public school has moved towards annual testing... at least some kind of test.... maybe math/reading one year, science the next? I'm not sure actuallly...
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Mar 7, 2011 15:30:04 GMT -5
Some people just have a problem with authority and hierarchy. They don't like to be told ever that they are wrong or that they don't know enough. I'm sure these boards would be considered 'soul-crushing' and 'oppressive' with how much we state our opinions.
Your goal in life can't be to never be pushed or be told that you could do better. External expectations become internal expectations and internal expectations are a huge determinant of your resolve and dedication, and ultimately your success in life.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Mar 7, 2011 15:37:20 GMT -5
Oped: That is frightening. They feel overwhelmed by middle-school math?
I went to a PACE school in 8th grade after my father moved. The school had 12 books for each subject year, and students could move at their own pace (clever, huh?). Here's the scam: You would test yourself at the beginning of the year to determine your ability. Wherever you had a problem. you would just do twelve books from that point. If you were in the 12th grade and tested at 6th grade English, you just had to pass the next twelve books to graduate English. In this state at this time, there was no state test for graduation.
I told my father to take me out, but he didn't want me to go to the public school in the area. My only out was that each book cost $5, so I finished so many so quickly (with good grades, the whole thing was a scam) until he didn't want to pay.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 7, 2011 15:45:37 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 15:45:58 GMT -5
hmm... i'm not sure if its middle school... i'd say as the move is away from basic operations to algebra, etc. I have to say, ... middle school math does seem to be moving at a faster pace than i remember ... but yeah... I usually use Saxon, but have incorporated some singapore this year, i bought some texts from a friend who said she couldn't use it... couldn't figure it out herself some of the problems... I also know that seems to be the subject families tend to move around with the most, trying teaching textbooks, abeka, math u see... trying to find something that 'works'... I don't know. When i do group, it is limited by time and i tend to do more problem solving... we're doing building design math this spring... I'm the only one who ever volunteers to do that. Actually, i pretty much end up teachign middle school group... if others do its art, photography, history... not math or science. The person teacher lower elementary math is teaching time, money, etc. Stuff like that isn't a problem....
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Mar 7, 2011 15:47:30 GMT -5
Anyone who home schools and doesn't want to test should come to NJ. At last I heard the only rules in NJ about home school are there are no rules. NJ has moved from this testing on things like the Iowa tests to End of Course tests for the required courses. So if algebra I is required by the state to graduate then they have to pass an EOC test to graduate to prove they actually learned what the course should have taught them. The HS's used to have a huge graduation test that supposedly included everything they should have learned. The kids who took both say the EOC tests were way more accurate about what they should have learned. Obviously how could you make a test that covers 4 years of education for them to do in 6 hours.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Mar 7, 2011 15:48:06 GMT -5
My children spend something like two months out of every school year concentrating on testing... I just got a notice saying that their field trip was canceled because they have to concentrate on testing. Then I heard that even though my daughter's had read Charlotte's Web themselves, the teacher in my daughter's 4th grade class read TO her students and they weren't required to read it themselves!!!
Thank goodness NCLB is canceled!!!! I hope they can quickly get back to an environment where they're not teaching to tests!
I about shot myself. I'd home school but I know that I'd both suck at it and my kids would hate me. Still.. it's tempting :\
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 7, 2011 15:50:02 GMT -5
Stats, You probably right. We are most likely will be homeschooling, but my DH has a degree in math and physics, so I know our bambinos will be taught all the math/science they can handle. Lena
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 15:51:40 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 15:51:40 GMT -5
Oh Loop... its not that bad... although i do look forward to the first week of summer camp ... Yes in some states you don't even have to report your intent to homeschool ... PA is read with regulations... but i don't mind them.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Mar 7, 2011 15:51:55 GMT -5
I don't like the 'teach to the test' atmosphere because they don't take into account developmental differences, and the suggest all kids will meet a certain standard... and the only way that will happen is if we have one set of low standards The test should not take into account the developmental differences, the student's scores reflect the developmental differences - 50 is a 'standard US student' - that means that some wil get 20 and some will get 80. Unfortunately, we have become so PC that we are afraid of the results - & therefore we are afraid to give the test. Here homeschoolers don't test annually... i have to test 3 times, 3rd, 5th, 8th,.... but i think the public school has moved towards annual testing... at least some kind of test.... In our area the tests have been annual for a long time. In the 1940's, we were loaded onto buses and taken to town every year for the day of testing, 2 - #2 pencils each. That was all grades, K-8, from the country schools. It was a kinda fun day, lunch provided, we didn't dread it.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Mar 7, 2011 15:54:43 GMT -5
Oped, that is very interesting. It reminds me of another thread where there is a disconnect between what parents say about their parenting and what they do.
I feel like if you really, really, wanted to homeschool your children so that they would have personalized, top-rate instruction, you would take the time to learn the material. I just think that many parents want the 'extra-special parenting status' they perceive that they get from saying that they homeschool. I think if you aren't committed enough to learn the core subjects (English, Math, Science, History) than you shouldn't be doing it. It doesn't matter much if a parent couldn't teach many electives because there are practical ways for a homeschooled student to learn that and provide some variety in the learning experience.
It sounds like you are serious about it oped and don't look for shortcuts or just emphasize what is easiest for you. What does the group do with high-school students?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 16:00:02 GMT -5
Ok... that works Phil... I agree that you we should not expect everyone to be advanced.... but then are you saying that teacher pay and school funding is based on those tests? Day of testing Phil? I got my letter last year saying that i could take the public school tests if i wanted... they had blocked off 3 WEEKS for testing.... now it wasn't full days... but... But i still think we need public schools !
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Mar 7, 2011 16:00:42 GMT -5
So you have heard of NJ?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 16:04:32 GMT -5
Notice too though stats that the public schools aren't getting everyone to be advanced in math either... As long as parents aren't doing any worse, i'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt... and it isn't all parents, but i do see that as more of a problem area for many, math and science...
We don't have many high schoolers in our group... that will change as we grow. Those now tend to do their own thing and not group school, or they help teach. One runs the news'paper' sending out assignments and compiling it and distribution, one is helping to teach an elementary history class...
Group school is really only a small part of our education, its a few weeks in fall, a few in spring, and we meet once a week... but middle school generally has work they have to do outside of class...
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Post by dragonfly7 on Mar 7, 2011 16:06:05 GMT -5
I grew up on a very rural farm and thus spent K-8 in a building of 45 students who were all just as poor as I was. There were 2-3 grades per classroom, and most of the time, I was bored. (I tested as GT in 4th grade.) I learned quickly but wasn't allowed to work ahead or pursue something different. After watching DH prepare lesson plans for 7th-8th graders, I can see the difficulty in preparing and teaching 14-21 different subjects on a daily basis (reading, English, math, social studies, science, handwriting, spelling), especially when there are no science textbooks and little equipment. However, I still don't understand why I couldn't work ahead, and after A Nation Deceived was released, I became an advocate of subject and/or grade acceleration because it is a no cost way that elementary school can help GT students. At that point in my life, 4-H was my saving grace since I could explored additional or different subjects.
At the same time, the socialization that school provided was quite unique. I have high levels of empathy and patience with other people that I attribute to having to learn to get along with other students. Today, we don't particularly like each other, but we had to get along at that point in time because there wasn't anyone else.
I loved my high school in the neighboring school district. There were just enough students that the school could provide different levels of choices to fulfill the basic English, Math, Science, and Social Studies requirements plus some electives and dual credit classes.
I understand wanting to have some way of comparing the academic progress of all children in a state, so unless was have a statewide or nationwide standard curriculum, a standardized test seems to be the "fair" way to measure it. I grew up taking the MMAT and the MAPs tests every spring. However, I think testing can get excessive, especially here in Texas where the students test every six weeks on top of the yearly tests. I ask teachers constantly, and none of them have been able to tell me why they have to test so frequently. With such an emphasis on testing, DH definitely has to teach to those tests, although he is allowed some leeway in his pre-AP classes.
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