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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 13:13:56 GMT -5
We support them with our money. So its relevant ... I'm not sure what i'm looking for here. We all think they could be doing a better job... and no point in history do i think has there been a time of satisifcation with what public schools were doing... there was always the push to 'do it better'... But i was talking with a friend, she's the unschoooler... no i'll try not to restart that debate... but she feels public school shouldn't exist because its demeaning and debasing and takes away all of children's freedom, and is just a horrible institution. Now, i wish things were bettere differentiated, and practices and expectations were more developmentally appropriate, among other things. I've said that i don't think pushing early academics is great for most kids. And obviously, i don't choose to use it, so i must think i can do it better at home... That said, i think the public school can be a saving grace for some kids. It provides them with an envirnoment and learning that they would never get at home, introduces them to different norms, shows and prepares them for opporutnities they would not otherwise be able to seize. Am i wrong? I don't remember liking public school. I wasted a lot of time there... i didn't learn all that i could... but i didn't think it was purgatory and freedom crippling? Like i said, i'm not sure what i want, so any comments... but did anyone feel that public school ruined them? saved them?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 13:24:15 GMT -5
I think your friend smokes too much ganja. Also she sounds very elitist. What about poor children? Or people who need two incomes to support their households? Should their children remain in daycare until they are 18 or stuck in apartments all day long with their tv on because school restricts freedom? How about those folks with kids who simply refuse to take academic direction from their parents? I've known people who have tried to homeschool and failed. I think part of education is to teach children to be an ethical, considerate member of society. Sometimes that means not following every whim you have, or resisting boundaries because that irritates or inconveniences you. It means tailoring your behavior to other people's expectations. Education is not just about producing workers but also about producing citizens. I think that the trend towards total self-actualization is dangerous.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 13:27:26 GMT -5
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Mar 7, 2011 13:30:10 GMT -5
Yeah... not all of us grew up in middle class yuppy fantasy land. For a big chunk of my childhood my mom was working full time plus, and my step father was an abusive addict and a drunk when he wasn't locked up or in rehab. Which one of them would have been in charge of my education exactly?
Are we going to start paying single mothers to sit home and teach their kids? Are some of them even capable of doing it? Have you ever seen those teen pregnancy shows on TV? Some of those chicks don't seem to know enough to teach even basic elementary school curriculum.
When you have two educated, middle age, middle class parents in the household home schooling is the obvious answer. In the kind of places that the public schools are actually really bad there aren't too many stable middle class parents to be found.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Mar 7, 2011 13:31:19 GMT -5
but she feels public school shouldn't exist because its demeaning and debasing and takes away all of children's freedom I'm 'down' on the current public school system, but for the opposite reasons as your friend. IMO, the permissiveness, the lack of order & discipline is a big part of the problem. The curriculum is now esteem-based, the 'hard' subjects have been minimalized so that no ones feelings are hurt, no tests/metrics are used for the same reason so the level of learning is not being well tracked. (Altho we now know that we are 28th in math among the 28 industrialized nations). Most groups/societies need structure - they 'wish' for absolute freedom - no bosses, no directors, no teachers, no school principle. But when the constraints are removed, they fail, they are unable to function under a an unstructured system. Even a loan person in the wild must establish their own rules to survive.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Mar 7, 2011 13:31:57 GMT -5
These things depend on the size of the school/community. I went to a private grade school and spent 9 years with the exact same 27 other kids - non of whom lived in my neighborhood. The local public schools (I walked passed one on my way to school) was teeming with kids. I wouldn't say I got much in the way of experiencing 'different norms' or any other sort of diversity - since it was a private school everyone was the same color, same religion, pretty much same everything. Thankfully, I went to the Public HS and joined 1000 other "freshman" at school. Now HS was diverse and eye opening (and instilled some hope in me for a future that wasn't just a mindless trudge to death).
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Mar 7, 2011 13:34:36 GMT -5
FWIW: I think a parent does need to take some responsibility for their kid's education (with out becoming a helicopter parent)... You don't want to be this: My College Aged nephew participated in a fund raiser for a good cause - but it was his parents who sent around the pledge form, it was his parents that did all the thanking for pledges, and I'm wondering if maybe his parents maybe participated for the kid in the fund raiser as well...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 13:34:43 GMT -5
I know... i've been making those points for two days... she doesn't think the few school might save are worth all the damage it does... now, i'm out of the loop a bit... but even though i don't send my kids to school, i don't remember it being THAT bad... ? ... And even though i homeschool, i sincerely believe that we need public schools. I know... she hates our homeschool laws too... says having to take standardized tests are demeaning and soul crushing... Now i don't think standardized tests mean a whole lot... but that's giving them an awful lot of power... No... not Mayim.... but she did post a link to that blog on facebook the other week ....
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Mar 7, 2011 13:39:57 GMT -5
says having to take standardized tests are demeaning and soul crushing... It honestly sounds like she's just not much of a scholar. My guess is school was hard for her, maybe because she didn't put in enough effort (but who knows really), and she did poorly on tests. That doesn't mean public school is a horrible evil place. And in terms of standardized tests being soul crushing, most of the kids I went to school with, myself included, didn't really care all that much about the standardized tests. I mean, the SATs are different, but in the lower grades the standardized tests really weren't that big a deal.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 13:40:00 GMT -5
You know - some days I think having to hand over cash that was earned in order to purchase something is demeaning and soul crushing. I mean - if we're spiritual buddies enjoying this wild trip called earth you could at least share your veggies. Scrubbing toilets is demeaning - but man they get funky if you don't. It's pretty demeaning to put rapists in jail - I mean it's soul crushing to not get laid, right?
How does your friend function in the world? Where does her money come from? Does she walk everywhere?
Most of us rail at public schools because they don't do a good enough job - not because they should be removed.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Mar 7, 2011 14:09:47 GMT -5
says having to take standardized tests are demeaning and soul crushing... It honestly sounds like she's just not much of a scholar. My guess is school was hard for her, maybe because she didn't put in enough effort (but who knows really), and she did poorly on tests. That doesn't mean public school is a horrible evil place. And in terms of standardized tests being soul crushing, most of the kids I went to school with, myself included, didn't really care all that much about the standardized tests. I mean, the SATs are different, but in the lower grades the standardized tests really weren't that big a deal. I like standardized tests. As long as the test accurately reflects what the student should have learned in that class I don't care if they test them every other month. ;D And NCLB was so out there that when it started I couldn't imagine them actually testing every student regardless of abilities. Well you know what? Pres Bush was right and the schools did do a better job when they knew every student would be tested. I also took an insurance producer's license test as well as the stockbrokers one. Definitely soul crushing so maybe all those earlier ones were really just to make me ready for the ultimate in soul crushing of exams.
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michelyn8
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Post by michelyn8 on Mar 7, 2011 14:10:15 GMT -5
Oped - I'm not a big fan of homeschooling (but I understand why some parents may choose to go that route) and what your friend is advocating sounds to much like total chaos. We have enough rude, disrespectful kids in the school system now. Her method is only compounding that in her children, IMO. Phil/Dark: I think to much emphasis is put on standardized testing. In the early 90's, VA implemented Standards of Learning (SOL's). It basically required students to pass certain tests every couple of years. One year it might be English and Science, the next History and Math. (No Child Left Behind was moot for us except for minor tweaks.) By the time my daughter graduated in 2007, students were required to have passed all of their SOL's or they didn't graduate. Doesn't matter if they're an honor roll student - fail SOL, no diploma. I never liked this program because teachers have to now teach to the test. No room for critical thinking unless you're in an AP level class with a teacher who might encourage it. Just learn the material so you can pass the test and your school system can receive their funding. Also, in order to meet these benchmarks and still educate our kids, more and more homework gets sent home for the parents to "teach" the child. I have no problem in assisting with homework, but I'm not a teacher. I may understand something well enough, but I simply do not have the ability or the patience to teach someone else - especially if they aren't as quick a learner as I am. Another issue is the students like my youngest. She aces the SOL's but does poorly on classwork. She needs more than teaching to the test and while I encouraged her to research info she wants to learn (taught herself HTML), the structure of the classroom bores her to the point that she just doesn't care so she doesn't do her homework, half-@$$es her classwork and score low on the regular quizzes and tests. It was a battle for years and while I could help and make sure she did her homework, I couldn't make her turn it in. She's now 19 and enrolled in a GED program so she can put the whole secondary level behind her and move forward. I have no doubts she'll do very well on the GED given her scores on the SOL's.
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telephus44
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Post by telephus44 on Mar 7, 2011 14:16:21 GMT -5
I think any country that needs educated citizens has a duty to provide educaton for their citizens. Whether the citizens choose to take advantage of what the government provides or do it on their own is their own choice.
My son just started in the public preschool in our town and has made remarkable progress. He's autistic, and seriously, the amount of progress just from being in an instructer-led classroom is amazing. That said, I wouldn't force anyone to send their kids to public school if they didn't want to.
I went to both public and private schools - sometimes I was bored, sometime I was challenged - it really depended largely on the teacher and subject. I certaintly wasn't traumatized, and I would NOT consider it a waste of my time.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 14:22:30 GMT -5
Sorry I'm so cranky on the topic.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Mar 7, 2011 14:26:40 GMT -5
I think public schools could be doing a better job, but I'd also say that the 'inputs' change over time as well.
This is become extremely non-PC to say, but we have increasing amounts of students who speak English as a second language, come from single family homes and poverty, etc. This is a huge factor in all of the deteriorating macro-level statistics like the ones that Phil mentioned.
The truth is that most middle-class children and nearly all upper-middle class children are performing at or above the level of their peers around the world. Increasing amounts of family breakdown and language barriers cripple the US in national rankings when examined broadly.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 14:27:48 GMT -5
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Mar 7, 2011 14:30:09 GMT -5
Exactly. When you break the scores down by income level, American kids not living in poverty have among the highest math and science scores in the world. The country as a whole gets crushed by places like Finland. Of course they have something like a 2 or 3% poverty rate among children in that country. Ours is closer to 25%.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Mar 7, 2011 14:32:28 GMT -5
I am a product of public schools, though I was lucky enough to go to schools with low poverty rates. I know that schools could be doing a better job, but most of that is tied directly to the poverty rate because of the way we fund public schools. In fact, when you look at schools in the US that have less than 10% poverty rate, the US ranks 1st in Reading, 1st in Science and 3rd in Math. californiaschildren.typepad.com/californias-children/2011/02/the-problem-is-not-public-schools-it-is-poverty.html (To look at the actual reports, you can go here: timss.bc.edu/) The problem is that as poverty rates go up, scores go down, and US scores are taken as an aggregate. 20% of all US schools have a poverty rate of 75% or greater.Those are the schools that are "failing" our children, not the schools in upscale middle class neighborhoods. But getting rid of those schools will NOT do the children it serves any good. Getting rid of those schools would probably make the lives of those children worse. Where would they be all day? How many of those kids get free school lunches? Would they even get one good meal a day outside of school? Sure, maybe public schools are crushing the freedom of some upper middle class kids who would be interested in learning all sorts of things on their own. But I was a smart, driven kid who was fascinated by all sorts of things. However, if you had let me pick my own topics to study, I would be able to do calculus (which I did in public school) and I'd be able to tell you anything you wanted to know about various mythologies from around the world, but I never would have read Dickens, or taken a single science class. I would in fact, be less educated than I am, or at the very least, much less well rounded. There are incredibly intelligent people who don't learn well in the standardized format, and even more very bright people who don't test well. (I learned well in the standard environment and test exceptionally well- probably better than I should. DH does not learn well in the standard environment, but tests really well. My high school physics lab partner was brilliant, excelled in the traditional school format, but bombed just about every standardized test he ever took.) I do believe we need to find a way to serve all students, regardless of how they learn, and find ways to measure what they're learning that aren't necessarily based on standardized tests. And many schools are trying- hence all the charter schools that have sprung up. But for now, we really don't have a better measure than standardized tests. Anyone who can come up with one would be rich (and rightly so). So our schools aren't ideal, but we give everyone the chance to get at least a high school education for free (not all "western" nations do). Getting rid of schools doesn't solve the educational crisis in this country and it penalizes even more the students we are already having the hardest time serving.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 7, 2011 14:33:14 GMT -5
RE: #2. I actually agree with almost everything she is saying. Anne, what are you objections?
Lena
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 7, 2011 14:35:42 GMT -5
Now, no schools?? Are you kidding me???
I am so tired of hearing from all the "poor" people whose freedoms have been infringed upon. They should go live in the countries where people truly have no freedoms.
How exactly schools give children no freedom? And better yet, what freedoms do children need in schools??
Lena
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 14:36:57 GMT -5
Lena - do you mean Oped's second post? I don't think standardized testing is some awful thing designed to turn us into automatons. We have to have some way to measure how children are doing. Public schools do a lot of good for a lot of people.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 7, 2011 14:38:03 GMT -5
Anne,
no, I meant Mayim's view point on children's education, etc
Lena
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 7, 2011 14:38:14 GMT -5
The curriculum is now esteem-based, the 'hard' subjects have been minimalized so that no ones feelings are hurt, no tests/metrics are used for the same reason so the level of learning is not being well tracked. (Altho we now know that we are 28th in math among the 28 industrialized nations). Most groups/societies need structure - they 'wish' for absolute freedom - no bosses, no directors, no teachers, no school principle. But when the constraints are removed, they fail, they are unable to function under a an unstructured system. Even a loan person in the wild must establish their own rules to survive.
One good thing though Phil, is that the US leads the industrialized world in producing high school grads with the highest self esteem in the world. It is any wonder why we have the least educated workforce and the most uncompetitive.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 14:38:19 GMT -5
Are the stats/link to the stats for the income level breakdown on the other thread? I'll look...
You know anne... i've been cranky on it too... i don't know... i need to get out of this snow, or around some non-homeschooling folk, but i was starting to wonder if i was crazy?... I didn't think so... but... you know...
I'm not much for standardized tests annually, or teaching to them, or ignoriging realistic differences in development and areas of potential/talent... and i'll always fight for the right to homeschool if you want to... but i LIKE homeschool acountabilty laws and the fact that public schools exist...
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 7, 2011 14:39:42 GMT -5
OMG that literally made me laugh out loud. Thanks
Lena
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Mar 7, 2011 14:41:15 GMT -5
Phil's argument about needing more discipline/order (less 'freedom') has to be even more important in failing schools where life circumstances already make graduating from high school a difficult task.
There are plenty of ways to allow children to nurture their interests without removing all structure. The base of knowledge that you form for children (and especially) young children helps shape their trajectory for the rest of their lives.
Also, every unschooling parent I've even heard speak has been ridiculous. It is all ' I don't need to teach math; we just bring some pens and paper to the grocery store.' This is beyond stupid. Just because you don't need to use math past a fifth-grade level doesn't mean your child won't need or want to. In nearly all of these cases, parents are fighting their own battles against the school they used to attend and the experiences they had. That is not fair for the children.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Mar 7, 2011 14:44:28 GMT -5
Homeschooling can be the same way. How many homeschool parents are qualified to teach their children physics or calculus? I would wager that it is considerably less than 25%. By making that choice for your children without having the ability, you are limiting their future potential.
I'm aware that some homeschoolers use certain teaching methods or 'class sharing' to help teach more difficult subjects, but this is not always the case.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 14:47:55 GMT -5
Lena - I think it's really irresponsible for Mayim Bialik to not seek assessments for her children, whom she acknowledges meet the guidelines for speech and occupational therapy. She uses the fact that her pediatrician is not concerned as support but we all know that it's pretty easy to find a doctor who will support you in your views. She's also in a privileged position - she has the money and education to pursue alternatives later. Parents who don't go in for early testing miss critical windows and gov't sponsored therapy in the early years.
Although she says that she is only commenting on her parenting she makes it clear through her use of descriptive language how she views different parenting styles. Those who follow her method are "independent thinkers, compassionate, generous and authentic" while those who do not "scold, nag, have children who are monkeys" and are only focused on academic achievement.
oped - I don't think it's crazy to be irritated by it. I think with the Jenny McCarthy and autism thing there's been this real push to follow your instincts - to a certain degree I believe in that too but some people are pushing it way too far.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 7, 2011 14:50:52 GMT -5
Anne, I do agree with you on the medical side of things. But I agree with her on the behavioral side. Thanks for clarifying it
Lena
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michelyn8
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Post by michelyn8 on Mar 7, 2011 14:52:05 GMT -5
We have to have some way to measure how children are doing. Public schools do a lot of good for a lot of people. Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=finance&thread=4410&page=1#174077#ixzz1FwdP0e7lYes, we do. And when I was in school, we took standardized tests every couple of years. They just weren't the be all and end all of my education. And you have to admit, a large part of the problem is as someone stated: we started worrying to much about making the kids feel good and less about making sure they actually learned something. Can't use a red pen because it might traumatize a child - I had plenty of red ink in school but that didn't have as much effect on my self-esteem as being accused of stuffing my bra in 6th grade and having the boy I had a crush on laughing at me over it.
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