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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 9:12:52 GMT -5
I think it's more about the fact that if you do lose your job for any reason after 50 getting something else might be difficult. Plus they don't SAY they're letting you go because you're older. We've had several RIFs here in the past few years. Most recent was a couple months ago. After the low hanging fruit trouble makers the next group that seems to get hit the hardest are the older employees that have been here forever (and are probably making the most). We let go two senior engineers at the last layoff, the reason being to cut expenses for a slow year. Yet we just hired a new engineer last week. She's maybe 30. and nobody has sued over that? that would not work here....you can't RIF positions and then hire new people into that same position. It's not the same position. They got rid of two Sr. Engineers and hired an entry level one. Product Engineer I instead of III. It sucks, but seriously, from a business aspect, I get why. The older ones were getting 5 weeks of vacation, set in their ways, not willing to put in all the extra hours. This new girl is hungry to move up. She's here nights and weekends and is probably covering what both those guys did at 25% of the cost.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Feb 27, 2015 9:16:54 GMT -5
and nobody has sued over that? that would not work here....you can't RIF positions and then hire new people into that same position. It's not the same position. They got rid of two Sr. Engineers and hired an entry level one. Product Engineer I instead of III. It sucks, but seriously, from a business aspect, I get why. The older ones were getting 5 weeks of vacation, set in their ways, not willing to put in all the extra hours. This new girl is hungry to move up. She's here nights and weekends and is probably covering what both those guys did at 25% of the cost. My company did it twice : 2 rounds of layoffs followed by new hiring at the corporate level. But instead of Sr. Positions they were Jr positions: - younger but cheaper workers
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 9:37:01 GMT -5
and nobody has sued over that? that would not work here....you can't RIF positions and then hire new people into that same position. It's not the same position. They got rid of two Sr. Engineers and hired an entry level one. Product Engineer I instead of III. It sucks, but seriously, from a business aspect, I get why. The older ones were getting 5 weeks of vacation, set in their ways, not willing to put in all the extra hours. This new girl is hungry to move up. She's here nights and weekends and is probably covering what both those guys did at 25% of the cost. and is what she's delivering to the customer equivalent to what they were both producing? if our company got rid of a senior engineer and brought in a junior engineer, the deliveries to the customer better be the same quality and on time or they'll get dinged in their evaluation and may not get any of their award fee....not to mention that will be remembered the next time they compete for a government contract.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 9:57:56 GMT -5
It's not the same position. They got rid of two Sr. Engineers and hired an entry level one. Product Engineer I instead of III. It sucks, but seriously, from a business aspect, I get why. The older ones were getting 5 weeks of vacation, set in their ways, not willing to put in all the extra hours. This new girl is hungry to move up. She's here nights and weekends and is probably covering what both those guys did at 25% of the cost. and is what she's delivering to the customer equivalent to what they were both producing? if our company got rid of a senior engineer and brought in a junior engineer, the deliveries to the customer better be the same quality and on time or they'll get dinged in their evaluation and may not get any of their award fee....not to mention that will be remembered the next time they compete for a government contract. I have no idea on her work performance...I'm just a tech here. The business aspect of it is way beyond my scope, but we are one of the largest contract electronics manufacturers in the world, so we must be keeping people happy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 10:04:22 GMT -5
also, being let go because you refuse to learn new practices or software is not being let go because of your age, it's being let go because of poor performance.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 10:36:40 GMT -5
When I was laid off, it was by a company that had just spun off of a larger company a couple years prior. After they went live on the new system, they started letting go of people, about 10 a month, I think it was because any more and they had to put out a formal announcement and hiring people in at 2/3 the salary. Anyway, my old boss got let go the same time, and in his termination packet was the demographics of who was let go, I'm assuming to dissuade anyone from suing. They made sure to let go of a younger person in their 20's each wave of layoffs. It was so obvious everyone was talking about it wondering when their number would be called.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 27, 2015 10:42:16 GMT -5
I think it's more about the fact that if you do lose your job for any reason after 50 getting something else might be difficult. Plus they don't SAY they're letting you go because you're older. We've had several RIFs here in the past few years. Most recent was a couple months ago. After the low hanging fruit trouble makers the next group that seems to get hit the hardest are the older employees that have been here forever (and are probably making the most). We let go two senior engineers at the last layoff, the reason being to cut expenses for a slow year. Yet we just hired a new engineer last week. She's maybe 30. and nobody has sued over that? that would not work here....you can't RIF positions and then hire new people into that same position. Proving this is phenomenally difficult. I know of at least 3 people who were released due to ago...my mom was one. She was an office manager, making $60k in LCOL area and essentially ran the local business. She had been with the company since the beginning. She was released at 61.....and if she went quietly, they would pay her health insurance until she could collect Medicare. She was replaced with a 20 year old making $24k, and was on the phone to my mom every single day needing help. Just because you don't think it happens where you work doesn't mean that it doesn't and IMO it is naive to think otherwise.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 27, 2015 10:46:51 GMT -5
also, being let go because you refuse to learn new practices or software is not being let go because of your age, it's being let go because of poor performance. This doesn't always happen though. Phil said he saw this many years ago and I seriously doubt that many reaching retirement in 2020 or so, after using computers since the 1980s is not the same group who are 60 and computers were just coming into the world.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 10:47:30 GMT -5
and nobody has sued over that? that would not work here....you can't RIF positions and then hire new people into that same position. Proving this is phenomenally difficult. I know of at least 3 people who were released due to ago...my mom was one. She was an office manager, making $60k in LCOL area and essentially ran the local business. She had been with the company since the beginning. She was released at 61.....and if she went quietly, they would pay her health insurance until she could collect Medicare. She was replaced with a 20 year old making $24k, and was on the phone to my mom every single day needing help. Just because you don't think it happens where you work doesn't mean that it doesn't and IMO it is naive to think otherwise. Our company does that too. They go around (almost always right before a RIF) to people over 60 and offer them a severance package. It's a go quietly and take this offer or take your chances on getting let go with nothing. Quite a few took it last time.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Feb 27, 2015 10:48:21 GMT -5
So, i'm going back to your original question, because I was part of the sidetrack convo.
I think you should consider the following
1. your plan for moving to the coast for lower cost. think about if there is a specific place, you might want to make a plan to buy there a few years before the kid is out of high school so that you can get it ready. 2. Look hard to see if you can meet your goals and punch out while hubs is younger. Any chance you could retire when he's 62-64 and could take SS right away? Maybe even he punches out there or goes to part time plus social security? That way you wouild still be working, but could maximize your vacation because he could handle the teenager and the house and every day YOU have off could be used for traveling/etc. Don't lock yourself into something too traditional either. Who says your daughter might not want to travel/study abroad for 1-2 years of highschool while her parents do zero or part time/remote work? Might be an amazing experience and something to consider depending on how she develops and her interests/personality. 3. I'm not sure how it works for you guys, but consider sabbaticals if you can do it without career suicide. when the kid is 5-11 years old, you have golden time to do stuff with her like take a 3 month rv trip around the us one summer (but you can't borrow our trailer!).
Is your and/or hubby's work the kind of thing that can ever be either remote or part time OR consulting (ie, do a 6 month project and then have time off until the next project?)
Good idea about the house. That makes sense. It doesn't have to be on the coast, maybe we'll end up in Sequim or something. I don't really know - we've only lived here 2 years. Maybe we'll just go up to Shoreline lol. We don't need to be within 10 minutes of downtown/UW that's for sure. Maybe if there is another housing crash we'll take advantage. H could definitely retire 'earlier', I mean, once day care is over we really could drop to a one income household and be okay. He really likes his work, honestly. And I think since we both work in the same field, if I'm working, he'll want to work, too. That may change in the next few years; I guess we'll see.We could do locum/contract work that is temporary, but we really don't have sabbaticals, or at least I've never seen them in practice because we're so hands on with patient care. I'd love for my daughter to have an unconventional year, or summer, or whatever. I went to Germany for a month when I was 16 through an exchange program and it was awesome! Extended leaves sound great. I'd love to take one...someday. Don't know about any of them being offered right now.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 27, 2015 10:49:36 GMT -5
Proving this is phenomenally difficult. I know of at least 3 people who were released due to ago...my mom was one. She was an office manager, making $60k in LCOL area and essentially ran the local business. She had been with the company since the beginning. She was released at 61.....and if she went quietly, they would pay her health insurance until she could collect Medicare. She was replaced with a 20 year old making $24k, and was on the phone to my mom every single day needing help. Just because you don't think it happens where you work doesn't mean that it doesn't and IMO it is naive to think otherwise. Our company does that too. They go around (almost always right before a RIF) to people over 60 and offer them a severance package. It's a go quietly and take this offer or take your chances on getting let go with nothing. Quite a few took it last time. TD's company does this too, they just had a huge round of this and the average age was probably 60.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 11:08:00 GMT -5
Our company does that too. They go around (almost always right before a RIF) to people over 60 and offer them a severance package. It's a go quietly and take this offer or take your chances on getting let go with nothing. Quite a few took it last time. TD's company does this too, they just had a huge round of this and the average age was probably 60. except the magic age listed by the previous poster was 50.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 12:28:52 GMT -5
except the magic age listed by the previous poster was 50. OK, two things
1. I didn't say a couple of things you've attributed to me. I said you should "plan to lose your job at 50". I never said it was solely due to age. People on this thread have offered many things that *may* happen in your 50's which includes age discrimation, but also health issues, personal reprioritization, etc.
2. You're an engineer, so CLEARLY you remember basic statistics right? So if a poster says "the average age was 60". Would you not expect that there is some distribution (meaning some were 55 and some were 65? Which would mean there were probably some people, in their 50's, who unexpectedly lost their livelihood.
I've also never said "all people lose their jobs at 50". I just feel that's a water line, and you should be prepared, in case it happens, because it's NOT rare to have some confluence of events cause you to lose a career level job in your 50's and either have to stop work entirely, or take something suckier for far less money. So if you've built the nest egg by 50ish, then you can continue on and let it compound, even if you take a pay cut and arent' able to contribute any further.
I replied to your post that I'll be 50 in a few months so I should expect to not have a job anymore and you responded yes.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Feb 27, 2015 13:00:49 GMT -5
Just for comparison, this was just posted on bogleheads:
_________________________________ Do I have enough to retire at 50?
Me: Age 48 Wife: Age 43 We both make about $95K We have $520K in taxable accounts. We have a 2nd house that is paid off and worth about $300k. It is rented out at $1300 per month My pension starts at age 55. If I quit my job at age 50 I would receive about $44K per year. My wife would continue working until age 55 and would receive about $40K per year in her pension and health insurance. We owe $400K with 28 years left on our primary mortgage We would receive about $2000 each at 65 for SS We could live off my wife's income if I retire, but we wouldn't be able put away any savings. We are both college educated in fairly difficult fields, also each of us has licenses in our respective field. My wife's job is very secure. My current job is very secure.
Reasons to retire at 50, I could spend some awesome time with our child. I only get to watch them grow once. I would also love be able to do many projects at home.
_______________________________________________
Boy I wish I had a pension!! or two!
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Feb 27, 2015 13:09:21 GMT -5
Or this one:
So I'm a relatively new Boglehead. I'm early 40s with dw a bit younger and 2 kids <5 yrs old.
I am doing my own investing via VG. 60% stocks/38% bonds/2% cash.
Investable assets 8.5 mil. (90% in taxable account). Paid off house 1.3 mil. No debts. 150k in 529. 3 year buy-out of about 250k/yr. No pension.
Burn rate of 12-15k/mo after tax. FireCalc >95%.
Current plan is to ER this summer. However, I have multiple opportunities to do lucrative part-time work: 2 days/week=400+k/yr. The work is great but the environment is stressful and full of hassles. If I ER this summer and do not take one of the opportunities, I'm not sure the opportunities with still exist 6-12 months later unless I commit early. At minimum I do plan to take a few months off.
On one hand I'd love to ER but have local commitments for at least 2-3 years that prevent our plan to do extensive traveling. I certainly could volunteer and spend time doing hobbies, etc. And yes, I have visited early-reitirement.org.
So, would you take the part-time gig for good money for another 1-3 years? Or, just go ahead and ER?
_________________________________-
8.5MM and still pondering! Hell, I'd be in Aruba, no question!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 13:19:01 GMT -5
8.5MM and still pondering! Hell, I'd be in Aruba, no question! No kidding! I'd at least jump on that 2 day a week 400K job.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Feb 27, 2015 13:30:36 GMT -5
8.5MM and still pondering! Hell, I'd be in Aruba, no question! No kidding! I'd at least jump on that 2 day a week 400K job. I wouldn't even bother! Seriously, why? Seems like an inconvenience to me. Once you make the 0.01% you don't look back, baby!
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Feb 27, 2015 13:45:45 GMT -5
and nobody has sued over that? that would not work here....you can't RIF positions and then hire new people into that same position. It's not the same position. They got rid of two Sr. Engineers and hired an entry level one. Product Engineer I instead of III. It sucks, but seriously, from a business aspect, I get why. The older ones were getting 5 weeks of vacation, set in their ways, not willing to put in all the extra hours. This new girl is hungry to move up. She's here nights and weekends and is probably covering what both those guys did at 25% of the cost. It's funny you should say this because my boss refers to a group of people as the "5 weekers" and how she "hates" the "5 weekers." I cringe every time she says it even though I know she doesn't mean it offensively. She's trying to be funny. But, the underlying issue is that managers do not always applaud loyalty when it comes at the cost of higher salaries and more vacation. Slide on your performance, and you're gone.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 27, 2015 13:57:06 GMT -5
The young hot-shot they hired to replace me after I quit was fired after only a month. It's not that easy to replace all that experience. I would expect that is much more the case with engineers.? ...or maybe colleges are turning out super-dooper engineers that know exactly what they're doing out of the gate?
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Feb 27, 2015 14:03:34 GMT -5
The young hot-shot they hired to replace me after I quit was fired after only a month. It's not that easy to replace all that experience. I would expect that is much more the case with engineers.? ...or maybe colleges are turning out super-dooper engineers that know exactly what they're doing out of the gate? It is the case with engineers too, the problem is it takes a while to see it depending on the product. Plus in a giant company, you have people floating around on different projects, so you can fire a bunch of senior people but still keep a few around that then have to keep their eyes on multiple things.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Feb 27, 2015 14:37:04 GMT -5
The young hot-shot they hired to replace me after I quit was fired after only a month. It's not that easy to replace all that experience. I would expect that is much more the case with engineers.? ...or maybe colleges are turning out super-dooper engineers that know exactly what they're doing out of the gate? It is the case with engineers too, the problem is it takes a while to see it depending on the product. Plus in a giant company, you have people floating around on different projects, so you can fire a bunch of senior people but still keep a few around that then have to keep their eyes on multiple things. In my company you went from 5 Seniors with each 1-2 Jr's reporting to them to now 2 Seniors with 3-5 Jr's reporting to them. So the ones that are left oversee see more projects / people and they hire Jr's to share the work load at a lower pay. Same reason I always planned to be financially independent by 50... I have seen it too many times to say "it won't happen to me".
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CCL
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Post by CCL on Feb 27, 2015 20:58:21 GMT -5
Or this one: So I'm a relatively new Boglehead. I'm early 40s with dw a bit younger and 2 kids <5 yrs old. I am doing my own investing via VG. 60% stocks/38% bonds/2% cash. Investable assets 8.5 mil. (90% in taxable account). Paid off house 1.3 mil. No debts. 150k in 529. 3 year buy-out of about 250k/yr. No pension. Burn rate of 12-15k/mo after tax. FireCalc >95%. Current plan is to ER this summer. However, I have multiple opportunities to do lucrative part-time work: 2 days/week=400+k/yr. The work is great but the environment is stressful and full of hassles. If I ER this summer and do not take one of the opportunities, I'm not sure the opportunities with still exist 6-12 months later unless I commit early. At minimum I do plan to take a few months off. On one hand I'd love to ER but have local commitments for at least 2-3 years that prevent our plan to do extensive traveling. I certainly could volunteer and spend time doing hobbies, etc. And yes, I have visited early-reitirement.org. So, would you take the part-time gig for good money for another 1-3 years? Or, just go ahead and ER? _________________________________- 8.5MM and still pondering! Hell, I'd be in Aruba, no question! Do you think they really have that much? Who ever heard of a part-time job that pays $400k per year? What is "ER?"
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Timberwolf
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Post by Timberwolf on Feb 27, 2015 23:58:49 GMT -5
I think it stands for early retirement, but I don't know for sure.
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trimatty471
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Post by trimatty471 on Mar 3, 2015 12:01:09 GMT -5
I was just talking to a coworker. He is 60. He makes approx. $100K annually give or take. His mortgage has been paid off for at least 10 years. He is lives in a one income household. His wife never worked. They are both very frugal. Yet he does not feel that he could retire?
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Mar 3, 2015 13:13:16 GMT -5
I was just talking to a coworker. He is 60. He makes approx. $100K annually give or take. His mortgage has been paid off for at least 10 years. He is lives in a one income household. His wife never worked. They are both very frugal. Yet he does not feel that he could retire? I also think sometimes people never bother to seat down and look at the numbers or make a plan. I have a store manager that is 67 that swears up and down that he cannot afford to retire. He has been a store manager for longer than I have been alive, make well into the six figures, have an only child that is in his late 40's and haven't had to support him since he was 18 and joined the army. No grandkids but his son did marry a lady with 2 of her own kids (older and out of the house). So dude... Where did the money go? I truly believe he can, just never really looked into it or tried to figure it out but keep believing the fear mongers that say he cannot.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Mar 3, 2015 13:29:37 GMT -5
The young hot-shot they hired to replace me after I quit was fired after only a month. It's not that easy to replace all that experience. I would expect that is much more the case with engineers.? ...or maybe colleges are turning out super-dooper engineers that know exactly what they're doing out of the gate? Not necessarily. Many of the new graduates have done co-ops or internships and have great experience from that. Particularly in software development I've found that if we interview intelligently, we can find new grads that hit the ground running. Sometimes they're more efficient than some of the older devs who are set in their ways.
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trimatty471
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Post by trimatty471 on Mar 3, 2015 21:31:34 GMT -5
I was just talking to a coworker. He is 60. He makes approx. $100K annually give or take. His mortgage has been paid off for at least 10 years. He is lives in a one income household. His wife never worked. They are both very frugal. Yet he does not feel that he could retire? Well, has he invested his money, or saved it? If he has just saved it, he might very well only have a few hundred thousand dollars. If he's been invested in 11% products for the last 10-30 years, then all bets are off.
Let's say he Invested 10k/year in S&P500 fund for the last 20 years
According to my Phil Script, a yearly investment of $10,000.00 bearing an annual return of 11% could grow to $712,651.44 in 20 years!
If he has "saved" 10k/year for the last 20 years at 3%, he'd only have 274K and not have nearly enough to retire without social security.
It's a pretty big difference.
edit: tagging Phil as he may have personal observations of coworkers who "saved" the amount Phil invested. phil5185
He mentioned that he never had pension but he has multiple IRAs that he recently consolidated.
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trimatty471
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Post by trimatty471 on Mar 3, 2015 21:34:36 GMT -5
I was just talking to a coworker. He is 60. He makes approx. $100K annually give or take. His mortgage has been paid off for at least 10 years. He is lives in a one income household. His wife never worked. They are both very frugal. Yet he does not feel that he could retire? I also think sometimes people never bother to seat down and look at the numbers or make a plan. I have a store manager that is 67 that swears up and down that he cannot afford to retire. He has been a store manager for longer than I have been alive, make well into the six figures, have an only child that is in his late 40's and haven't had to support him since he was 18 and joined the army. No grandkids but his son did marry a lady with 2 of her own kids (older and out of the house). So dude... Where did the money go? I truly believe he can, just never really looked into it or tried to figure it out but keep believing the fear mongers that say he cannot. Your store manager sounds just like him. He also has one child in his 20s who is married with no kids.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Mar 4, 2015 10:57:51 GMT -5
I also think sometimes people never bother to seat down and look at the numbers or make a plan. I have a store manager that is 67 that swears up and down that he cannot afford to retire. He has been a store manager for longer than I have been alive, make well into the six figures, have an only child that is in his late 40's and haven't had to support him since he was 18 and joined the army. No grandkids but his son did marry a lady with 2 of her own kids (older and out of the house). So dude... Where did the money go? I truly believe he can, just never really looked into it or tried to figure it out but keep believing the fear mongers that say he cannot. Some people just spend too much money. We know couples who pulled in $200k per year who have nothing saved. We know lots of people who are making $100k or so with nothing to retire on. They spend every dollar they get. Yep, I'm always amazed at people like minnesotapaintlady who save very well with a limited income. It's "easy" to save when you make big bucks. You just have to pay yourself first ala the Wealthy Barber.
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CCL
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Post by CCL on Mar 4, 2015 11:37:51 GMT -5
Some people just spend too much money. We know couples who pulled in $200k per year who have nothing saved. We know lots of people who are making $100k or so with nothing to retire on. They spend every dollar they get. Yep, I'm always amazed at people like minnesotapaintlady who save very well with a limited income. It's "easy" to save when you make big bucks. You just have to pay yourself first ala the Wealthy Barber. Who is the Wealthy Barber?
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