mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on Feb 24, 2015 18:56:39 GMT -5
This is not Islam! last time i checked, SA is an ally. do i like it? no. i don't. Before we start hopping up and down, it might be a good idea to wait and see what comes of this. Very few of these cases have ever come to punishment. Saudi has a new king. We'll have to see which way he bounces on this. Hafr, where this sentence was handed down, isn't the most sophisticated town in the Kingdom.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,477
|
Post by Tennesseer on Feb 24, 2015 19:05:27 GMT -5
From b2r's own link:
"The death penalty is the standard penalty for apostasy in the Muslim world, though it is rarely carried out, even in Saudi Arabia which still carries out regular executions."
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,124
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 24, 2015 19:27:57 GMT -5
i don't really know what the point is, tho. if we are going to make a holy war, isn't Saudi Arabia an example of the PROBLEM with that idea? isn't Indonesia?
and if we are NOT, why is Islam even the subject of the discussion?
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on Feb 24, 2015 20:06:41 GMT -5
i don't really know what the point is, tho. if we are going to make a holy war, isn't Saudi Arabia an example of the PROBLEM with that idea? isn't Indonesia? and if we are NOT, why is Islam even the subject of the discussion? To me, Islam shouldn't be the subject of the discussion. ISIS should be the subject of the discussion. ISIS does not equate to Islam.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 30, 2024 6:00:47 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2015 22:28:01 GMT -5
i don't really know what the point is, tho. if we are going to make a holy war, isn't Saudi Arabia an example of the PROBLEM with that idea? isn't Indonesia? and if we are NOT, why is Islam even the subject of the discussion? We aren't making a holy war. Isis is though and it may or may not be helpful to keep that in mind if we intend to fight back at all.
(Reuters) - Islamic State militants have abducted at least 150 people from Assyrian Christian villages in northeastern Syria they had raided, Christian Syrian activists said on Tuesday.
A Syrian Christian group representing several NGO's inside and outside the country said it had verified at least 150 people missing, including women and elderly, who had been kidnapped by the militants. www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/24/us-mideast-crisis-christians-idUSKBN0LS0MH20150224
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,124
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 25, 2015 1:10:26 GMT -5
i don't really know what the point is, tho. if we are going to make a holy war, isn't Saudi Arabia an example of the PROBLEM with that idea? isn't Indonesia? and if we are NOT, why is Islam even the subject of the discussion? We aren't making a holy war. Isis is though
are they? i don't recall them declaring a war on Christianity. listen, i am NOT siding with ISIS. i just think that they are more of a reactionary element than a proactive one. edit: i read the rest of your post before i responded, btw- in case you think that might have changed my reply. and even if they did, IS THIS THE WAY WE WANT TO RESPOND? by giving them 1.3 BILLION allies?
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,477
|
Post by Tennesseer on Feb 25, 2015 8:56:04 GMT -5
i don't really know what the point is, tho. if we are going to make a holy war, isn't Saudi Arabia an example of the PROBLEM with that idea? isn't Indonesia? and if we are NOT, why is Islam even the subject of the discussion? We aren't making a holy war. Isis is though and it may or may not be helpful to keep that in mind if we intend to fight back at all.
(Reuters) - Islamic State militants have abducted at least 150 people from Assyrian Christian villages in northeastern Syria they had raided, Christian Syrian activists said on Tuesday.
A Syrian Christian group representing several NGO's inside and outside the country said it had verified at least 150 people missing, including women and elderly, who had been kidnapped by the militants. www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/24/us-mideast-crisis-christians-idUSKBN0LS0MH20150224
Against what religion is ISIS waging a Holy War? If the vast majority of those injured or killed by ISIS are Muslims and ISIS claims to be Muslim themselves, against what religion is ISIS waging a Holy War?
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,124
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 25, 2015 10:54:58 GMT -5
We aren't making a holy war. Isis is though and it may or may not be helpful to keep that in mind if we intend to fight back at all.
(Reuters) - Islamic State militants have abducted at least 150 people from Assyrian Christian villages in northeastern Syria they had raided, Christian Syrian activists said on Tuesday.
A Syrian Christian group representing several NGO's inside and outside the country said it had verified at least 150 people missing, including women and elderly, who had been kidnapped by the militants. www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/24/us-mideast-crisis-christians-idUSKBN0LS0MH20150224
Against what religion is ISIS waging a Holy War? If the vast majority of those injured or killed by ISIS are Muslims and ISIS claims to be Muslim themselves, against what religion is ISIS waging a Holy War? Muslims are actually more threatened by ISIS than Christians are, because the threat is existential. they are claiming that they are the only TRUE Muslims. therefore, all OTHER Muslims- moderate ones- can be killed. THAT is what they are saying. how would we react HERE if, say, the WBC declared that they were the one true branch of Christianity, and that therefore, the only suitable punishment was apostacy, and they started recruiting a private army to carry that out? if you were to believe right wing conservatives, Americans would JOIN THEM in that "holy war". can't they see how absurd that is? the FBI and law enforcement would crush them like bugs.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 30, 2024 6:00:47 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2015 11:11:33 GMT -5
We aren't making a holy war. Isis is though and it may or may not be helpful to keep that in mind if we intend to fight back at all.
(Reuters) - Islamic State militants have abducted at least 150 people from Assyrian Christian villages in northeastern Syria they had raided, Christian Syrian activists said on Tuesday.
A Syrian Christian group representing several NGO's inside and outside the country said it had verified at least 150 people missing, including women and elderly, who had been kidnapped by the militants. www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/24/us-mideast-crisis-christians-idUSKBN0LS0MH20150224
Against what religion is ISIS waging a Holy War? If the vast majority of those injured or killed by ISIS are Muslims and ISIS claims to be Muslim themselves, against what religion is ISIS waging a Holy War? Against anyone of any religion or no religion at all that does not accept their extreme version of Islam. It does not matter to Isis what that religion or belief system is , only that if it is not theirs you are the enemy.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 30, 2024 6:00:47 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2015 11:13:51 GMT -5
Against what religion is ISIS waging a Holy War? If the vast majority of those injured or killed by ISIS are Muslims and ISIS claims to be Muslim themselves, against what religion is ISIS waging a Holy War? Muslims are actually more threatened by ISIS than Christians are, because the threat is existential. they are claiming that they are the only TRUE Muslims. therefore, all OTHER Muslims- moderate ones- can be killed. THAT is what they are saying. how would we react HERE if, say, the WBC declared that they were the one true branch of Christianity, and that therefore, the only suitable punishment was apostacy, and they started recruiting a private army to carry that out? if you were to believe right wing conservatives, Americans would JOIN THEM in that "holy war". can't they see how absurd that is? the FBI and law enforcement would crush them like bugs. Who are these conservative saying we should join them in a "holy war"?
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,124
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 25, 2015 11:16:28 GMT -5
Against what religion is ISIS waging a Holy War? If the vast majority of those injured or killed by ISIS are Muslims and ISIS claims to be Muslim themselves, against what religion is ISIS waging a Holy War? Against anyone of any religion or no religion at all that does not accept their extreme version of Islam. It does not matter to Isis what that religion or belief system is , only that if it is not theirs you are the enemy.
this would be true even if ISIS were agnostic, right?
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,124
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 25, 2015 11:19:26 GMT -5
Muslims are actually more threatened by ISIS than Christians are, because the threat is existential. they are claiming that they are the only TRUE Muslims. therefore, all OTHER Muslims- moderate ones- can be killed. THAT is what they are saying. how would we react HERE if, say, the WBC declared that they were the one true branch of Christianity, and that therefore, the only suitable punishment was apostacy, and they started recruiting a private army to carry that out? if you were to believe right wing conservatives, Americans would JOIN THEM in that "holy war". can't they see how absurd that is? the FBI and law enforcement would crush them like bugs. Who are these conservative saying we should join them in a "holy war"? you mistook me. i was making an analogy to my own religion: something that is rarely done in this debate. MANY conservatives seem to think that Muslims of all stripes are more anxious to JOIN ISIS than to repulse it. if you extend that logic to Christianity, most conservatives would find that argument laughable. why it seems plausible for Islam is only a mystery if you consider the profound ignorance of that religion most Americans have.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 30, 2024 6:00:47 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2015 11:20:07 GMT -5
Against anyone of any religion or no religion at all that does not accept their extreme version of Islam. It does not matter to Isis what that religion or belief system is , only that if it is not theirs you are the enemy.
this would be true even if ISIS were agnostic, right? It could be , not the case with Isis though.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,124
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 25, 2015 11:21:19 GMT -5
this would be true even if ISIS were agnostic, right? It could be , not the case with Isis though. you don't do analogies, i take it? if the analogy holds, then religion is immaterial to us. if we make it material, we are actually acceding to their view of things. i, for one, reject that. you would be wise to do so, as well.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,477
|
Post by Tennesseer on Feb 25, 2015 11:21:30 GMT -5
Against what religion is ISIS waging a Holy War? If the vast majority of those injured or killed by ISIS are Muslims and ISIS claims to be Muslim themselves, against what religion is ISIS waging a Holy War? Against anyone of any religion or no religion at all that does not accept their extreme version of Islam. It does not matter to Isis what that religion or belief system is , only that if it is not theirs you are the enemy.
It is about control, period. Nothing else.
|
|
wyouser
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 16:35:20 GMT -5
Posts: 12,126
|
Post by wyouser on Feb 25, 2015 11:23:09 GMT -5
Muslims are more threatened currently that Christians or Jews because Muslims are the overwhelming majority of the population in the areas they control. There is right now a very real probability that these areas will VERY soon become Christain free and Jewish free areas. (Remind anyone here of the term "Juden Rein" from former days?) Abducted Christians being separated. Men from women and children from their mothers. Did these guys resurrect Dr. Mengele? Are we witnessing a revival of the playbook from Auschwitz? But that's no big deal, right? Once the Jew and Christian has been exterminated they can apply their 7th Century interpretation of the Koran on their Shiite brethren. Of course any Sunni who doesn't conform to their interpretation can be exterminated too. So, convert or die. Or pay the tax...and maybe still die. Have you noticed, that conversion does not necessarily avoid beheading either? Wonderful animals these...
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,124
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 25, 2015 11:25:12 GMT -5
Against anyone of any religion or no religion at all that does not accept their extreme version of Islam. It does not matter to Isis what that religion or belief system is , only that if it is not theirs you are the enemy.
It is about control, period. Nothing else. control, fear....little else. if it could be accomplished any other way, they would do that, too. and they will.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,124
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 25, 2015 11:29:02 GMT -5
Muslims are more threatened currently that Christians or Jews because Muslims are the overwhelming majority of the population in the areas they control. precisely. and the area they are LIKELY to control. that is why i made the analogy. the area we control is Christian. how would we feel if the WBC created an army, and threatened Christianity? would we sit there and watch? would we JOIN?There is right now a very real probability that these areas will VERY soon become Christain free and Jewish free areas. (Remind anyone here of the term "Juden Rein" from former days?) that happens a lot in the ME. need i recount the many nations where this has taken place?- the majority of which are our ALLIES?Abducted Christians being separated. Men from women and children from their mothers. Did these guys resurrect Dr. Mengele? Are we witnessing a revival of the playbook from Auschwitz? Godwin.But that's no big deal, right? you know what? i don't have time for anyone that thinks i would tolerate genocide. good day. edit: if you want to let your fear run you, that's your right. but your fear will not run me.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 30, 2024 6:00:47 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2015 11:33:16 GMT -5
It could be , not the case with Isis though. you don't do analogies, i take it? if the analogy holds, then religion is immaterial to us. if we make it material, we are actually acceding to their view of things. i, for one, reject that. you would be wise to do so, as well. So if they were agnostic you believe they would still be executing , beheading, burning alive, slaveholding maniacs? You believe if they were agnostic they would still have the following they do currently?
|
|
wyouser
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 16:35:20 GMT -5
Posts: 12,126
|
Post by wyouser on Feb 25, 2015 11:33:33 GMT -5
I would remind you that (ISSIS) being a minority does not preclude their potentially dominating the majority. Well organized and fanatical minorities have often triumphed in the past. Remember Robspierre in the French Revolution. Remember the Bolsheviks (this term means minority) won out over the Menscheviks (this term means majority) in the Russian Revolution. Even in our own revolution, we were split 1/3 for revolution, 1/3 pro British Loyalists and 1/3 who just wanted to be left alone to make a living. Remember too ,that the Nazi's were never a majority before they came to power. To ignore these folks may be dangerous..
|
|
wyouser
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 16:35:20 GMT -5
Posts: 12,126
|
Post by wyouser on Feb 25, 2015 11:34:50 GMT -5
I did not say anyone here supports genocide.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,124
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 25, 2015 11:40:49 GMT -5
I did not say anyone here supports genocide. i never said supports.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,124
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 25, 2015 11:42:13 GMT -5
I would remind you that (ISSIS) being a minority does not preclude their potentially dominating the majority. look, friend. i spent a good deal of time in the 80's studying South Africa. if i leave it at that, will that sufficie? i am well aware that minorities can dominate majorities. but since you are not answering my questions, i am not going to deal with yours any further. i wished you a nice day. here is where the discussion ends for "us". any further replies on this thread will be ignored.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,124
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 25, 2015 11:44:48 GMT -5
you don't do analogies, i take it? if the analogy holds, then religion is immaterial to us. if we make it material, we are actually acceding to their view of things. i, for one, reject that. you would be wise to do so, as well. So if they were agnostic you believe they would still be executing , beheading, burning alive, slaveholding maniacs?
you are failing to analogize, still. what i believe is that there is nothing that requires ISIS to be religious to carry out their punishments and atrocities. there have been Marxists, Buddhists, and cultists that have done precisely the same thing- and yet in NONE of those cases did anyone conclude that it was a holy war on the part of those groups against the rest of us. i find it TROUBLING that we do so in the case of ISIS. strike that- i find it HORRIFYING.
You believe if they were agnostic they would still have the following they do currently?
what following?
|
|
wyouser
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 16:35:20 GMT -5
Posts: 12,126
|
Post by wyouser on Feb 25, 2015 11:54:16 GMT -5
If I missed an answer, sorry. To your question if WBC created an army that threatened Christianity, would we sit and watch? Would we join? Humans being humans, a great many WOULD sit and watch. No , that's not correct. Many would be totally unaware until something showed up on their doorstep. And , you are correct. This has been happening in the Middle East for years (basically ever since the creation of the state of Israel in 1948.) Most of the Jews are already gone. . And yes, our supposed "allies" were/are guilty of helping this along. It is only unfortunate that man learned nothing from all the religious fighting in the past.
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Feb 25, 2015 12:19:19 GMT -5
I would remind you that (ISSIS) being a minority does not preclude their potentially dominating the majority. Well organized and fanatical minorities have often triumphed in the past. Remember Robspierre in the French Revolution. Remember the Bolsheviks (this term means minority) won out over the Menscheviks (this term means majority) in the Russian Revolution. Even in our own revolution, we were split 1/3 for revolution, 1/3 pro British Loyalists and 1/3 who just wanted to be left alone to make a living. Remember too ,that the Nazi's were never a majority before they came to power. To ignore these folks may be dangerous.. For what it's worth, the terms are reversed. Bolshoi means big, and menshiy means smaller.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 30, 2024 6:00:47 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2015 12:19:36 GMT -5
So if they were agnostic you believe they would still be executing , beheading, burning alive, slaveholding maniacs?
you are failing to analogize, still. what i believe is that there is nothing that requires ISIS to be religious to carry out their punishments and atrocities. Of course it isn't required but it happens to be true in this case. Could be anything. Could be race and of course it has been. It is what is there have been Marxists, Buddhists, and cultists that have done precisely the same thing- and yet in NONE of those cases did anyone conclude that it was a holy war on the part of those groups against the rest of us. I don't find anyone saying it is a holy war except Isis .I hear Isis telling us what this is about for them and others confirming that. They have told us it is a holy war.You don't want believe them, ok. i find it TROUBLING that we do so in the case of ISIS. strike that- i find it HORRIFYING. I find the actions of Isis more HORRIFYING than pretty much anything anyone could ever say.
You believe if they were agnostic they would still have the following they do currently?
what following? The people who join their fight every single day.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,124
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 25, 2015 12:28:49 GMT -5
The people who join their fight every single day. huh. ok. i don't see a lot of "flocking", personally. i see more people falling in line AGAINST them. the rest of the post didn't copy, so it is too much trouble to comment on it. i remember harboring similar feelings about the Contras. did you know that they used to drag babies over barbed wire in front of their mothers? Reagan compared them to Jefferson, Adams and Madison, but i am not aware of them engaging in such torture. forgive me if i lack all sense of horror at such things- but i do. ISIS and the Contras are a speck of fly crap on the ceiling of history, imo. edit: i do think that using THEIR language to describe the conflict is a fatal mistake for us. FATAL, in that it will cost the lives of many innocent Americans and Muslims to make that mistake. Obama has actually done a GREAT job of not doing that. far superior to Bush. you disagree. that's fine. have a nice day.
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on Feb 25, 2015 12:37:42 GMT -5
People are not "flocking" to join ISIS. Instead, the press is "flocking" to wax eloquent about those who do join (or try to join, or think about joining, or look like they might think about joining). Most people are downright disgusted by ISIS. That would include Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, and just about anybody with a modicum of decency. Don't be led down the garden path by the press' entrancement with sensationalism.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,124
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 25, 2015 12:39:17 GMT -5
spot on. have a nice day, everyone.
|
|