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Post by Value Buy on Feb 10, 2015 8:42:10 GMT -5
EVT, One other thing. I was never in Cambodia, although I did fly in a helicopter on the edge of Vietnam and Cambodia. Bad country. And for the record, I was not assigned to a helicopter unit while there. I was an MP.
I am wondering if you thought I was slamming Clinton? I was not. I was just inserting Kerry for Clinton. Hillary misremembers a lot of things, but she never claimed to be in Vietnam. Myself, I will never forget Kerry and his actions involving Vietnam. I may one day forgive him, but I am not ready to do it just yet. Maybe when he is finished with politics.
Hillary might of been in the group that visited North Vietnam with Jane Fonda, and misremembers not being there. I do not know. Maybe we should ask her
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 10, 2015 10:37:57 GMT -5
Kerry was in Vietnam- were you? I call that offensive. Since you asked, yes I was. December 1969 to February 1971 Fourteen months. Unlike Kerry, I was drafted and sent over there, and was proud of my service to my country.
Offensive? Kerry totally blew his time in country out of the water on what he actually did while there. And to this day I sincerely believe he is a liar and blowhard.
Did you know personnel who were on same missions as he was or influenced by the "swift boat " folks...Personally I wasn't there on his missions and go the other way as from yours..guess just a difference in opinion... Didn't mind his testimony in front of Congress either..there were many who testified and many vets against the war .. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry_military_service_controversyby the way, thanks for your service.....you were over there at a dicey time...
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Feb 10, 2015 11:26:08 GMT -5
Since you asked, yes I was. December 1969 to February 1971 Fourteen months. Unlike Kerry, I was draftedand sent over there, and was proud of my service to my country.
Offensive? Kerry totally blew his time in country out of the water on what he actually did while there. And to this day I sincerely believe he is a liar and blowhard.
Yes, you are different from Kerry. Kerry enlisted. Leave it to Tenn, to make being drafted a slam. Good one.
Do you remember how many little rich boys enlisted with the help of family and influential friends to give them a safe job, or enlisted in the Reserves to escape the draft? I put Kerry in that group, even if he went to Vietnam. Believe me when I say, there was very safe duty to be had there. Some were as safe as stateside. I saw it. And the people who were really living the life were reporters for the written press. They were living high on the hog over there. I cannot confirm television reporters for the networks had the same freedom for the elaborate lifestyle And I admit, being stationed where I was, was safe duty, but still only a 120mm rocket away from some tough shit. But please, let's not make this thread about me.
IMO, Brian Williams should be allowed to come back on NBC Nightly News. They are talking heads reading a teleprompter, with some "editing" decisions on their actual dialogue allowed to be done by their bosses. MAYBE THE NETWORKS SHOULD NOT ALLOW THEM TO GO ROGUE AND REPORT ACTUAL NEWS AT WAR ZONES, OR NATIONAL DISASTERS, AND LEAVE THAT REPORTING TO ACTUAL REPORTERS IN THE FIELD.
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 10, 2015 11:30:03 GMT -5
Yes, you are different from Kerry. Kerry enlisted. Leave it to Tenn, to make being drafted a slam. Good one.
Do you remember how many little rich boys enlisted with the help of family and influential friends to give them a safe job, or enlisted in the Reserves to escape the draft? I put Kerry in that group, even if he went to Vietnam. Believe me when I say, there was very safe duty to be had there. Some were as safe as stateside. I saw it. And the people who were really living the life were reporters for the written press. They were living high on the hog over there. I cannot confirm television reporters for the networks had the same freedom for the elaborate lifestyle And I admit, being stationed where I was, was safe duty, but still only a 120mm rocket away from some tough shit. But please, let's not make this thread about me.
IMO, Brian Williams should be allowed to come back on NBC Nightly News. They are talking heads reading a teleprompter, with some "editing" decisions on their actual dialogue allowed to be done by their bosses. MAYBE THE NETWORKS SHOULD NOT ALLOW THEM TO GO ROGUE AND REPORT ACTUAL NEWS AT WAR ZONES, OR NATIONAL DISASTERS, AND LEAVE THAT REPORTING TO ACTUAL REPORTERS IN THE FIELD.
You seem to have slammed those who enlisted. Why did you not enlist? Well Bush Jr. went into the Reserves for short period. But he never went to Vietnam, did he..
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Post by Value Buy on Feb 10, 2015 11:59:48 GMT -5
One other thought about Brian Williams's predicament. If NBC did not have the Super Bowl this year, would this whole incident not have developed? I wonder if NBC wanted a feel good moment involving a vet to push during the Super Bowl coverage.
Shouldn't this veteran have remembered the event correctly? He was paraded around for all the world to see, and is now made to look bad. And yet the news media has ignored this part of the story. Maybe it's better not to do that, because he should not be dragged into this fiasco, but darn he, was there.
If NBC was not covering the game, I believe this would not have surfaced. How much responsibility belongs to the network, just wanting a rah rah moment, rather than Williams in this mess?
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Post by Opti on Feb 10, 2015 12:34:35 GMT -5
VB, we are all entitled to our opinions. I think John Kerry got lots of grief because his medals weren't for as serious wounds as many others and people wanted to discredit him.
The swift boaters were incorrect on most of their "facts", so I see them as liars and opportunists.
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Post by Opti on Feb 10, 2015 12:36:26 GMT -5
One other thought about Brian Williams's predicament. If NBC did not have the Super Bowl this year, would this whole incident not have developed? I wonder if NBC wanted a feel good moment involving a vet to push during the Super Bowl coverage.
Shouldn't this veteran have remembered the event correctly? He was paraded around for all the world to see, and is now made to look bad. And yet the news media has ignored this part of the story. Maybe it's better not to do that, because he should not be dragged into this fiasco, but darn he, was there.
If NBC was not covering the game, I believe this would not have surfaced. How much responsibility belongs to the network, just wanting a rah rah moment, rather than Williams in this mess? VB, I think the big reason Brian Williams has to lay low for awhile is because he made a veteran look bad and consequently angered many people in the military.
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Post by Opti on Feb 10, 2015 12:40:10 GMT -5
Incidentally, when did people start calling lying "misremembering"? If I claim I haven't eaten a single sweet all week and my wife points out that I picked up a muffin at Starbucks on Monday, that's misremembering. If I'm not in the middle of a group of helicopters taking rocket fire and I impress my buddies with tales of being in a group of helicopters taking rocket fire, that's a lie. Misremembering IMO is incorrectly recalling an event. It technically is a lie but not an intentional one. I don't know if he intentionally lied or misremembered so I used the latter kinder word. As time goes on I know I personally recall less clearly many events in my life.
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Feb 10, 2015 12:49:59 GMT -5
Thank you for your service, Value Buy. I don't care if you enlisted or were drafted. Thank you.
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 10, 2015 13:46:03 GMT -5
Leave it to Tenn, to make being drafted a slam. Good one.
Do you remember how many little rich boys enlisted with the help of family and influential friends to give them a safe job, or enlisted in the Reserves to escape the draft? I put Kerry in that group, even if he went to Vietnam. Believe me when I say, there was very safe duty to be had there. Some were as safe as stateside. I saw it. And the people who were really living the life were reporters for the written press. They were living high on the hog over there. I cannot confirm television reporters for the networks had the same freedom for the elaborate lifestyle And I admit, being stationed where I was, was safe duty, but still only a 120mm rocket away from some tough shit. But please, let's not make this thread about me.
IMO, Brian Williams should be allowed to come back on NBC Nightly News. They are talking heads reading a teleprompter, with some "editing" decisions on their actual dialogue allowed to be done by their bosses. MAYBE THE NETWORKS SHOULD NOT ALLOW THEM TO GO ROGUE AND REPORT ACTUAL NEWS AT WAR ZONES, OR NATIONAL DISASTERS, AND LEAVE THAT REPORTING TO ACTUAL REPORTERS IN THE FIELD.
You seem to have slammed those who enlisted. Why did you not enlist? Well Bush Jr. went into the Reserves for short period. But he never went to Vietnam, did he.. he got a TANG slot, considered by many to be the "cushiest, least risky slot available". and then he went AWOL.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 10, 2015 14:10:13 GMT -5
Yes, you are different from Kerry. Kerry enlisted. Leave it to Tenn, to make being drafted a slam. Good one.
Do you remember how many little rich boys enlisted with the help of family and influential friends to give them a safe job, or enlisted in the Reserves to escape the draft? I put Kerry in that group, even if he went to Vietnam. Believe me when I say, there was very safe duty to be had there. Some were as safe as stateside. I saw it. And the people who were really living the life were reporters for the written press. They were living high on the hog over there. I cannot confirm television reporters for the networks had the same freedom for the elaborate lifestyle And I admit, being stationed where I was, was safe duty, but still only a 120mm rocket away from some tough shit. But please, let's not make this thread about me.
IMO, Brian Williams should be allowed to come back on NBC Nightly News. They are talking heads reading a teleprompter, with some "editing" decisions on their actual dialogue allowed to be done by their bosses. MAYBE THE NETWORKS SHOULD NOT ALLOW THEM TO GO ROGUE AND REPORT ACTUAL NEWS AT WAR ZONES, OR NATIONAL DISASTERS, AND LEAVE THAT REPORTING TO ACTUAL REPORTERS IN THE FIELD.
Well this "little rich boy " as you say volunteered for the inland navy.."swift boat.."something I know I wouldn't have done ..{ in fact as my dad told me before I shipped out...he was WW2 with Pattons third...}never ever volunteer... As far as correspondents..why would you even mention them in this thread...these folks for the most part were older then we, less fit AND civiliens....many had served too, put their time in....How they lived were none of your or my business...and many also died in actions...I am sure there is a stat on that too.. ------------------------------------------------------------------ " This article is a partial list of journalists killed and missing during the Vietnam War. The press freedom organization Reporters Without Borders tallied 63 journalists who died over a 20-year period ending in 1975 while covering the Vietnam War with the caveat that media workers were not typically counted at the time.[1][2]"real quick wicki search..not counting any wounded in situations..I am sure many more then KIA... I agree with having Brien back on the air...I would tell him I was not put off at all by your remark...personally I think you were just doing some dramatics to push up the service of the guy you were honoring at the ball game..got carried away a bit...I still trust what you tell me on the air and feel the naysayers who are sniping at you are just the ones who like to snipe at anyone for what ever reason...small people who in many ways are jealous of others..IMHO of course...
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 10, 2015 14:13:45 GMT -5
You seem to have slammed those who enlisted. Why did you not enlist? Well Bush Jr. went into the Reserves for short period. But he never went to Vietnam, did he.. he got a TANG slot, considered by many to be the "cushiest, least risky slot available". and then he went AWOL. assigned to a national guard unit...there was questions if I remember, if he actually did much reserve duty..flying either..but that's another story...
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 10, 2015 14:36:09 GMT -5
Who the hell could forget ever being shot at? The guys an out and out liar and his lies have caught up with him. I think Hilary's will, too
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 10, 2015 15:37:41 GMT -5
Incidentally, when did people start calling lying "misremembering"? If I claim I haven't eaten a single sweet all week and my wife points out that I picked up a muffin at Starbucks on Monday, that's misremembering. If I'm not in the middle of a group of helicopters taking rocket fire and I impress my buddies with tales of being in a group of helicopters taking rocket fire, that's a lie. Misremembering IMO is incorrectly recalling an event. It technically is a lie but not an intentional one. I don't know if he intentionally lied or misremembered so I used the latter kinder word. As time goes on I know I personally recall less clearly many events in my life.
Zib summarized my feelings nicely, but to summarize: taking rocket fire in a helicopter is not something one spuriously remembers (unless one is delusional). I suppose in the spirit of "innocent until proven guilty", the media would be obliged to refer to it as "misremembering". In any case, I agree with VB that it isn't reason enough for NBC to can Mr. Williams. Let's just hope his journalistic credibility rises above the level of his personal credibility.
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Post by Value Buy on Feb 10, 2015 15:51:20 GMT -5
Desi, The reason I brought up "correspondents" is simple. The national talking heads all started out as a local, national and then an international reporter, or "correspondents". It's just another word for reporters. When Brian Williams is reporting live from Iraq or the flooded streets of New Orleans, he is a correspondent, not a talking head.
And yes there were correspondents who died taking chances in Vietnam. I also know how well they lived in the big cities over there. I admit, I disliked it, when I knew our troops were dying at the same time.
As I might someday forgive Kerry, I might forgive some of them and some of the high living they did at the same time. It just always stuck in my craw, so to speak. Again, I am not talking the televised press. I never really had any interaction with them. I am talking the written press corp, and of course, I fully admit it does not pertain to the vast majority of them reporting over there.
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 10, 2015 16:34:39 GMT -5
Desi, The reason I brought up "correspondents" is simple. The national talking heads all started out as a local, national and then an international reporter, or "correspondents". It's just another word for reporters. When Brian Williams is reporting live from Iraq or the flooded streets of New Orleans, he is a correspondent, not a talking head.
And yes there were correspondents who died taking chances in Vietnam. I also know how well they lived in the big cities over there. I admit, I disliked it, when I knew our troops were dying at the same time.
As I might someday forgive Kerry, I might forgive some of them and some of the high living they did at the same time. It just always stuck in my craw, so to speak. Again, I am not talking the televised press. I never really had any interaction with them. I am talking the written press corp, and of course, I fully admit it does not pertain to the vast majority of them reporting over there. Kerry waits with bated breathe for your forgiveness. As for the written press in Vietnam living the high life (according to you). They didn't have to be there. But they got out and reported the news. It was the written and photographic news which turned America against the Vietnam War and not a moment too soon. We owe the press our thanks as we owe the troops our thanks. No more Vietnams.
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 10, 2015 16:46:39 GMT -5
You seem to have slammed those who enlisted. Why did you not enlist? Well Bush Jr. went into the Reserves for short period. But he never went to Vietnam, did he.. he got a TANG slot, considered by many to be the "cushiest, least risky slot available". and then he went AWOL. And then there is that other Republican standard bearer: Mitt Romney. Romney was off in France proselytizing the French for the Mormons while the Vietnam ware raged on. Romney received a number of student deferments and a ministerial deferment while in France. Newt and Rush? No military service either. Jeb Bush? Registered for the draft but his number was not called. He could have enlisted just like Newt and Rush could have. But none of them did.
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Post by deziloooooo on Feb 10, 2015 17:02:01 GMT -5
Desi, The reason I brought up "correspondents" is simple. The national talking heads all started out as a local, national and then an international reporter, or "correspondents". It's just another word for reporters. When Brian Williams is reporting live from Iraq or the flooded streets of New Orleans, he is a correspondent, not a talking head.
And yes there were correspondents who died taking chances in Vietnam. I also know how well they lived in the big cities over there. I admit, I disliked it, when I knew our troops were dying at the same time.
As I might someday forgive Kerry, I might forgive some of them and some of the high living they did at the same time. It just always stuck in my craw, so to speak. Again, I am not talking the televised press. I never really had any interaction with them. I am talking the written press corp, and of course, I fully admit it does not pertain to the vast majority of them reporting over there. Kerry waits with bated breathe for your forgiveness. As for the written press in Vietnam living the high life (according to you). They didn't have to be there. But they got out and reported the news. It was the written and photographic news which turned America against the Vietnam War and not a moment too soon. We owe the press our thanks as we owe the troops our thanks. No more Vietnams. Amen....
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 10, 2015 17:19:46 GMT -5
Yeah, well I'm still waiting for that Fonda bitch to be tried for her treason as well. I swear her well loved father kept her ass out of a sling but I'm sure the liberal press and movie "stars" helped.
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 10, 2015 18:20:45 GMT -5
he got a TANG slot, considered by many to be the "cushiest, least risky slot available". and then he went AWOL. assigned to a national guard unit...there was questions if I remember, if he actually did much reserve duty..flying either..but that's another story... he was busy being a pinup boy for anti-drug campaigns. couldn't trouble himself with flight training. or even being on base, according to those present at the time.
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 10, 2015 18:21:42 GMT -5
Yeah, well I'm still waiting for that Fonda bitch to be tried for her treason as well. I swear her well loved father kept her ass out of a sling but I'm sure the liberal press and movie "stars" helped. people with connections GENERALLY get a free ride. i am so numb to it now, it doesn't even upset me any more. except with Bush.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 10, 2015 18:36:48 GMT -5
Isn't Pres. Obama old enough that he'd have been drafted into the Vietnam war? What did he do, out of curiosity? ETA: Apparently he was too young to serve. He's only 54! Poor man looks like he's 70.
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 10, 2015 18:38:28 GMT -5
Isn't Pres. Obama old enough that he'd have been drafted into the Vietnam war? What did he do, out of curiosity? He was maybe 10 years oldin 1971 so no.
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Post by Value Buy on Feb 10, 2015 18:59:54 GMT -5
Tenn,
"No more Vietnams"
Agreed.
Sadly, Iraq, we broke it, now we own it too. Afghanistan, we added to the breakage, so maybe we are renting that one. Syria, we broke it, and now we own that one too.
Enough
But, what is the correct answer to make it right?
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 10, 2015 19:19:07 GMT -5
Tenn,
"No more Vietnams"
Agreed.
Sadly, Iraq, we broke it, now we own it too. Afghanistan, we added to the breakage, so maybe we are renting that one. Syria, we broke it, and now we own that one too.
Enough
But, what is the correct answer to make it right? I don't have the answer, VB. I can only suggest to the foreign countries which receive U.S. aid: 'If you want that aid to continue, start supplying your country's manpower in world conflicts and fight beside us when a wrong needs to be righted. No token forces. We are not the world's police force. It is your world too.'
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Post by EVT1 on Feb 10, 2015 20:15:50 GMT -5
EVT, One other thing. I was never in Cambodia, although I did fly in a helicopter on the edge of Vietnam and Cambodia. Bad country. And for the record, I was not assigned to a helicopter unit while there. I was an MP.
I am wondering if you thought I was slamming Clinton? I was not. I was just inserting Kerry for Clinton. Hillary misremembers a lot of things, but she never claimed to be in Vietnam. Myself, I will never forget Kerry and his actions involving Vietnam. I may one day forgive him, but I am not ready to do it just yet. Maybe when he is finished with politics.
Hillary might of been in the group that visited North Vietnam with Jane Fonda, and misremembers not being there. I do not know. Maybe we should ask her I don't care about Clinton- I think what they did to Kerry was disgusting during the election and I find it offensive that anyone wants to basically call him a liar over the medals or whatever when there is no evidence. He put his life on the line for country- that's enough for me and that deserves respect. I respect you did the same. I can't see why you would want to disparage a fellow vet- but I can't speak on Vietnam too much since I was born at the end of it- so what's your beef?
Sidenote- my dad was offered helicopter school way back when and turned it down because of the rumors about Vietnam escalating, my buddy's dad was a helicopter gunner, got shot and made it home- heard some stories- got our hands on a pile of tracer rounds too
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Post by Opti on Feb 10, 2015 20:57:50 GMT -5
I don't know really what happened in the Brian Williams incident as what one says publicly and what thinks privately do not always match. The nature of memory though is more fallible than some want to think.
Here's some research and I'll just share a bit. This is about cops and more immediate recall, but shows traumatic events are often recalled not as well as some people might think. www.alexisartwohl.com/pdf/FBI%20article.pdf
The author found that 21 percent of the officers "saw, heard, or experienced something during the event that I later found out had not really happened or happened very differently than how I remembered it."
Implications for Investigators These researchers accurately pointed out that memory is not a flawless "videotape" that can play back exactly the same way each time a person tries to remember a past event. Rather, memory is a creative and not entirely understood process. If an officer's recollection of an event is not a totally accurate representation of reality, it does not necessarily mean that the officer is lying or trying to engage in a cover-up. Likewise, it is normal for memories to change somewhat over time, and the changed or new memories may or may not represent reality more accurately. The same concept applies to other eyewitnesses and the suspects as well. No one should accuse an individual of lying simply due to inaccurate, inconsistent, or missing memories. While some individuals will choose to be untruthful, investigators should reserve this accusation for those cases where additional evidence exists to indicate that the person deliberately lied. The author found that 21 percent of the officers "saw, heard, or experienced something during the event that I later found out had not really happened or happened very differently than how I remembered it." All participants in an event, including the suspect, eyewitnesses, and officers, have the potential to see, hear, feel, or experience things that did not actually happen. A wide variety of factors, including perceptual distortions, biases, beliefs, expectations, and prior experiences, influence people's perceptions.
The differences between rational and experiential modes of thinking also have implications in the postshooting aftermath.
Another research review found that "traumatic situations will inevitably result in memory impairment."
Using proper interview techniques is particularly important for high-stress situations because during experiential thinking, the individual is more likely to be dissociative and "encodes reality in concrete images, metaphors, and narratives," whereas, in rational thinking, the individual is more logical and "encodes reality in abstract symbols, words, and numbers."15 This means that the survivors of traumatic experiences will find it challenging to translate the dissociated concrete images and metaphors they experienced during the high-stress event into the sequential, verbal, abstract, and logical narrative required by an investigative interview and courtroom testimony.
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 10, 2015 22:15:24 GMT -5
I'm sure that applies to rescuing puppies and watching dead bodies float by, too.
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Feb 10, 2015 22:28:00 GMT -5
Brian Williams didn't "mis-represent". He lied.
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Post by Value Buy on Feb 10, 2015 23:16:18 GMT -5
NBC evidently took the issue serious. Gave him a six month suspension without pay.
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