weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 9, 2015 15:08:43 GMT -5
Now, this is some scary stuff....
Nearly one in three college men admit they might rape a woman if they knew no one would find out and they wouldn’t face any consequences, according to a new study conducted by researchers at the University of North Dakota.
thinkprogress.org/health/2015/01/11/3610327/college-men-forcible-sex-study/
Then there's this.
In yet another disturbing look at how some Republicans view women, a Utah lawmaker is unsure if having sex with an unconscious woman should be considered rape.
Let’s introduce you to Utah Republican State Representative Brian Greene, who revealed his misogynistic mindset during a debate over a new bill which would remove a loophole that allows a rapist to get away with his crime if his victim is unconscious and not able to consent to sex. The HB74 bill is being proposed by Democratic State Representative Angela Romero due to her concerns that the wording of the current Utah law might be letting some rapists get away with the heinous act.
reverbpress.com/news/misogynistic-gop-lawmaker-not-always-rape-unconscious-video/
Well, she didn't say "No!"
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 9, 2015 15:13:24 GMT -5
Talk is cheap. Never more so than today when one can't throw a rock without it hitting some do-nothing activist's venture in "raising awareness". Here's some advice: if you want people to think favourably of feminism, stop plugging your homemade definitions in debate threads, set up a thread to document your hands-on exploits in combating slavery, FGM, etc., and show the lot of us what you want feminism to be rather than telling us what you want it to be. You might even want to passively solicit funds for your work. At the very least it will put any speculation to rest that you're just sitting on your duff sipping lattes, "raising awareness". I don't believe in soliciting funds on this board. It is completely against it's purpose in my mind.
The dictionary definition of feminism isn't my homemade definition.
I'm not positive but aren't your posts becoming personal attacks on me?
Regardless of your stance on soliciting funds, the rest of the advice stands. Your homemade definition isn't the dictionary definition. Your homemade definition is the dictionary definition plus a litany of caveats on what does and doesn't count as championing equality for women, none of which appear in the dictionary definition and none of which you've justified in this thread. For my advice to be an attack, you'd have to agree that sitting on one's duff sipping lattes and raising awareness is useless, which you don't, and that your personal brand of activism amounts to more than sitting on your duff sitting lattes and raising awareness, which you've claimed isn't the case and which I have no knowledge of one way or the other. Barring these two factors, consider it an attack on nothing more than the group I plainly identify in the post: do-nothing activists.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 9, 2015 15:22:25 GMT -5
Now, this is some scary stuff....
Nearly one in three college men admit they might rape a woman if they knew no one would find out and they wouldn’t face any consequences, according to a new study conducted by researchers at the University of North Dakota.
thinkprogress.org/health/2015/01/11/3610327/college-men-forcible-sex-study/
Then there's this.
In yet another disturbing look at how some Republicans view women, a Utah lawmaker is unsure if having sex with an unconscious woman should be considered rape.
Let’s introduce you to Utah Republican State Representative Brian Greene, who revealed his misogynistic mindset during a debate over a new bill which would remove a loophole that allows a rapist to get away with his crime if his victim is unconscious and not able to consent to sex. The HB74 bill is being proposed by Democratic State Representative Angela Romero due to her concerns that the wording of the current Utah law might be letting some rapists get away with the heinous act.
reverbpress.com/news/misogynistic-gop-lawmaker-not-always-rape-unconscious-video/
Well, she didn't say "No!"
You should follow these kinds of articles up with reminders of why our enlightened, liberated, hypersexualized society really is "progress". Somebody might get the wrong idea otherwise.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 9, 2015 15:34:40 GMT -5
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 9, 2015 15:35:11 GMT -5
::There are many situations where men brag about raping women, I'm not accusing you of this, I am saying some men do.::
If your entire argument is "some men do", then you can say anything you want. And you can put "some women do" at the end of nearly all of the events as well.
Making arguments based on what "some do" provides for no argument at all. "Some do" just about anything and everything you can imagine.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 9, 2015 15:54:44 GMT -5
Now, this is some scary stuff....
Nearly one in three college men admit they might rape a woman if they knew no one would find out and they wouldn’t face any consequences, according to a new study conducted by researchers at the University of North Dakota.
thinkprogress.org/health/2015/01/11/3610327/college-men-forcible-sex-study/
Then there's this.
In yet another disturbing look at how some Republicans view women, a Utah lawmaker is unsure if having sex with an unconscious woman should be considered rape.
Let’s introduce you to Utah Republican State Representative Brian Greene, who revealed his misogynistic mindset during a debate over a new bill which would remove a loophole that allows a rapist to get away with his crime if his victim is unconscious and not able to consent to sex. The HB74 bill is being proposed by Democratic State Representative Angela Romero due to her concerns that the wording of the current Utah law might be letting some rapists get away with the heinous act.
reverbpress.com/news/misogynistic-gop-lawmaker-not-always-rape-unconscious-video/
Well, she didn't say "No!"
You should follow these kinds of articles up with reminders of why our enlightened, liberated, hypersexualized society really is "progress". Somebody might get the wrong idea otherwise. I'm sure they started calling society "hypersexualized" when women started showing a bit of ankle and they stopped covering up table legs, leading to a "stirring in the loins".
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 9, 2015 15:55:36 GMT -5
You aren't very versed in using drama to illustrate a point are you? Strangely enough Ms. Hess does a good job making you very uncomfortable see the world as it appears to many women. There are many situations where men brag about raping women, I'm not accusing you of this, I am saying some men do. It is such a part of the culture that it often goes pretty much unnoticed or uncommented on. From the brief synopsis I read of that show, Ms. Hess characters behave as some young men behave. And you are outraged. The hope is that it will make you more sensitive if/when men behave that way. So men behaving this way is bad and they shouldn't do it. But women behaving this way is fine because it's just mean to show how men behave. This is exactly the kind of hypocrisy which sets back cries for equality. "When you do it, it's wrong. When I do it, I will justify my poor behavior as being ok". Until you think the same behavior is either ok or not ok for different genders, any claims that you want equality is laughable. Equality is not synonymous with striving to improve only one group's standing in all areas.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 15:58:03 GMT -5
You keep saying that but I have not put caveats. You are the one that keeps excluding me as a feminist.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 16:00:24 GMT -5
You aren't very versed in using drama to illustrate a point are you? Strangely enough Ms. Hess does a good job making you very uncomfortable see the world as it appears to many women. There are many situations where men brag about raping women, I'm not accusing you of this, I am saying some men do. It is such a part of the culture that it often goes pretty much unnoticed or uncommented on. From the brief synopsis I read of that show, Ms. Hess characters behave as some young men behave. And you are outraged. The hope is that it will make you more sensitive if/when men behave that way. So men behaving this way is bad and they shouldn't do it. But women behaving this way is fine because it's just mean to show how men behave. This is exactly the kind of hypocrisy which sets back cries for equality. "When you do it, it's wrong. When I do it, I will justify my poor behavior as being ok". Until you think the same behavior is either ok or not ok for different genders, any claims that you want equality is laughable. Equality is not synonymous with striving to improve only one group's standing in all areas. It is not fine that women behave this way. It is an act of fiction that I took to highlight that this behavior is not acceptable and uses women doing it to show it from a different angle. The women joking about it does not mean the audience is supposed to find it funny.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 16:02:47 GMT -5
::There are many situations where men brag about raping women, I'm not accusing you of this, I am saying some men do.:: If your entire argument is "some men do", then you can say anything you want. And you can put "some women do" at the end of nearly all of the events as well. Making arguments based on what "some do" provides for no argument at all. "Some do" just about anything and everything you can imagine. Would you please tell Virgil that! I've been telling him that for the last 7 pages or so!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 16:04:25 GMT -5
::There are many situations where men brag about raping women, I'm not accusing you of this, I am saying some men do.:: If your entire argument is "some men do", then you can say anything you want. And you can put "some women do" at the end of nearly all of the events as well. Making arguments based on what "some do" provides for no argument at all. "Some do" just about anything and everything you can imagine. Out of curiosity, don't you want to stop men from joking about raping women?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 9, 2015 16:39:42 GMT -5
You should follow these kinds of articles up with reminders of why our enlightened, liberated, hypersexualized society really is "progress". Somebody might get the wrong idea otherwise. I'm sure they started calling society "hypersexualized" when women started showing a bit of ankle and they stopped covering up table legs, leading to a "stirring in the loins". I'm glad you prefer a society where a third of men would rape a woman in a moment of opportunity rather than one where men worried about stirring in the loins (as exceptional as your example may be). You keep saying that but I have not put caveats. You are the one that keeps excluding me as a feminist. The only thing I've said about your status as a feminist is in Reply #205, where I state "Regardless, if your goal is to establish equality for women--however you define equality, and by whatever means you find suitable--you meet the dictionary definition of feminist. I see no reason why you shouldn't call yourself a feminist." Ergo you're a feminist. You may or may not be part of the legacy of "feminists [that] have gotten women the vote, helped with domestic violence laws and a myriad of improvements for women in the western world". You're a part of this legacy if and only if you're a feminist on the front lines rather than a feminist of the sip-lattes-and-raise-awareness variety. I don't know which type you are, and I don't care. Both are feminists.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 9, 2015 17:29:15 GMT -5
::There are many situations where men brag about raping women, I'm not accusing you of this, I am saying some men do.:: If your entire argument is "some men do", then you can say anything you want. And you can put "some women do" at the end of nearly all of the events as well. Making arguments based on what "some do" provides for no argument at all. "Some do" just about anything and everything you can imagine. Out of curiosity, don't you want to stop men from joking about raping women? Me personally? Not really. I don't actually care what anyone jokes about even if it's off-color and crude. Even things that I might find offensive, I don't have a desire to "have people stop", though I may ask them to stop doing it around me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 17:39:05 GMT -5
I'm sure they started calling society "hypersexualized" when women started showing a bit of ankle and they stopped covering up table legs, leading to a "stirring in the loins". I'm glad you prefer a society where a third of men would rape a woman in a moment of opportunity rather than one where men worried about stirring in the loins (as exceptional as your example may be). You keep saying that but I have not put caveats. You are the one that keeps excluding me as a feminist. The only thing I've said about your status as a feminist is in Reply #205, where I state "Regardless, if your goal is to establish equality for women--however you define equality, and by whatever means you find suitable--you meet the dictionary definition of feminist. I see no reason why you shouldn't call yourself a feminist." Ergo you're a feminist. You may or may not be part of the legacy of "feminists [that] have gotten women the vote, helped with domestic violence laws and a myriad of improvements for women in the western world". You're a part of this legacy if and only if you're a feminist on the front lines rather than a feminist of the sip-lattes-and-raise-awareness variety. I don't know which type you are, and I don't care. Both are feminists. Well we've progressed from all feminists are evil to there are some that are okay but I doubt you're one of them. I guess that's progress
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 17:40:01 GMT -5
Out of curiosity, don't you want to stop men from joking about raping women? Me personally? Not really. I don't actually care what anyone jokes about even if it's off-color and crude. Even things that I might find offensive, I don't have a desire to "have people stop", though I may ask them to stop doing it around me. LOL you get marks for owning it. I do want them to stop.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 17:42:37 GMT -5
You obviously don't subscribe to Cosmo magazine.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 9, 2015 17:43:49 GMT -5
You obviously don't subscribe to Cosmo magazine. Nope. How many teenage girls read it?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 17:49:23 GMT -5
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quince
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Post by quince on Feb 9, 2015 17:49:44 GMT -5
I'm actually with Hoops on the not wanting to stop men from joking about raping women.
I would love if society shifted enough that very few people found jokes about rape funny. Men raping women, prison rape, women raping men, whatever. I don't think it means someone is a horrible person if they joke about rape, or that they are rapists, but treating sexual violence in a lighthearted fashion makes it easier for people to take for granted that sexual violence is something that just happens, and not something horrible that should be prevented. The same, in my opinion, domestic violence used for comedic effect, though usually in this case of women against men.
I don't much like jokes about murder, torture, or mutilation, either.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 9, 2015 18:05:44 GMT -5
If a significant percentage of the teenage population think it is not "okay" to say yes or initiate sex, then there will too much need for "convincing" them and too much "I was manipulated" into it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 18:13:15 GMT -5
If a significant percentage of the teenage population think it is not "okay" to say yes or initiate sex, then there will too much need for "convincing" them and too much "I was manipulated" into it. You understand that in that study the perpetrators of sexual violence were self reporting, they see themselves as using violence and coercion. As for your point, any studies I have seen on the subject report that a woman will often agree when she doesn't want to, I've never seen anything that reported they were saying no when they wanted to say yes. Anecdotally I don't know too many teens that say no when they want to say yes.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 9, 2015 18:22:56 GMT -5
Well we've progressed from all feminists are evil to there are some that are okay but I doubt you're one of them. I guess that's progress Now if you progress to the point where you acknowledge moonbat feminists are still feminists, we'll have bridged the gap between us.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 18:29:10 GMT -5
Well we've progressed from all feminists are evil to there are some that are okay but I doubt you're one of them. I guess that's progress Now if you progress to the point where you acknowledge moonbat feminists are still feminists, we'll have bridged the gap between us. In the same way that Westboro Baptists are Christians.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 9, 2015 18:50:36 GMT -5
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 9, 2015 21:56:08 GMT -5
Now if you progress to the point where you acknowledge moonbat feminists are still feminists, we'll have bridged the gap between us. In the same way that Westboro Baptists are Christians. Not a valid analogy for reasons we've already discussed. Fatal error detected. Failure to progress. Please consult Reply #159 and reattempt.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 9, 2015 21:57:43 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 22:50:32 GMT -5
In the same way that Westboro Baptists are Christians. Not a valid analogy for reasons we've already discussed. Fatal error detected. Failure to progress. Please consult Reply #159 and reattempt. Oh no, you don't get to decide who is a feminist AND who is a Christian. If feminists are self identified so are Christians.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Feb 9, 2015 23:21:02 GMT -5
Cosmopolitan is a magazine that focuses on fashion, beauty & style, celebrity gossip and quizzes like "How Good is Your Man in Bed? - Rate his Prowess" - or "Why you Still Think About your High School Sweetheart".
At least 1/3 of the pages are filled with ads for cosmetics, hair products, colognes, etc.
The magazine doesn't do feminism any service and has little to nothing do to with feminism at all.
Just click on "view gallery" then scroll through these Cosmo cover pics and look how they have the celebs or models dressed - and read on the cover what's inside the pages - All the articles in the top left LARGE print on the covers are about sex, and how to please your man.
Nothing on the covers about Feminism or Equal Rights for Women.
www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/celebs/news/g860/cosmo-cover-gallery/.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 10, 2015 0:00:30 GMT -5
Not a valid analogy for reasons we've already discussed. Fatal error detected. Failure to progress. Please consult Reply #159 and reattempt. Oh no, you don't get to decide who is a feminist AND who is a Christian. If feminists are self identified so are Christians. To refresh your memory: Christianity has a canonical set of doctrines (scripture) and the teachings of Jesus Christ as a benchmark. What document or set of documents would serve this same purpose vis a vis feminism? Direct me to them. If your answer is "the dictionary definition", i.e. a string of a few words, we've already established that moonbat feminism meets this definition, which isn't surprising given its level of generality. A few words is also clearly not analogous to volumes of scripture. It also seems reasonable to me that if you take feminism as seriously as you claim to, you would know of at least a few feminist authors, bloggers, etc. whose writings define or closely comport with your vision of feminism. Maybe there's a book or an article or a doctoral thesis somewhere that embodies feminism for you. You need only direct us to this material. "Virgil, this whitepaper by Dr. W. M. Ensright summarizes true feminism." The beauty is then that I can peruse Dr. Ensright's work at my leisure. I'll have have a benchmark to evaluate whether or not a given activist is an Ensright feminist, which I'll know to be laterbloomer's standard for true feminism.
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quince
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Post by quince on Feb 10, 2015 0:55:07 GMT -5
Mormons consider themselves Christians. Lots of people with very divergent beliefs identify as Christians. If people think the US constitution is interpreted in wacky ways, it has got nothing on the way scripture gets twisted round.
Feminism very simply is used to describe movements/collections of beliefs/ideologies aimed toward the establishment of equality for women.
Within the umbrella of feminism, I do believe that there may be some individuals who believe that male-female intercourse is rape, although I think that is a misinterpretation of Dworkin's writing? There are definitely individuals who think everything needs to be controlled or legislated to "correct" imbalances, and that the fallout from the movement that may be damaging to men is unimportant, because women are less privileged. There are individuals who ignore the fact that men are also raped, and treat rape as something that exclusively males inflict upon females, and while there is a definite issue of under reporting of sexual assaults that happen to women, there is a similar under reporting of sexual assaults happening to males, for parallel reasons: basically, no one believes rape victims of either gender. There are individuals who consider violence inflicted upon men to be victory, or some kind of redress for violence inflicted upon women. There are women who think that the only way for men to be feminists is to sit down, shut up, and let the women speak. I found it easier to divorce myself from the concept of feminism than to accept that there are things I find repugnant done/stated/embraced in the name of feminism.
As for hypersexualized/liberal society... don't be under the illusion that women were not raped when skirts covered ankles. I imagine that what we now consider to be rape happened as often, if not more often, and that more men would have interviewed as being willing to use force or coercion to obtain sex, etc. Forcing a spouse to have sex = rape, although would not have been considered such, and probably as well: slaves, women of lower class, not of good breeding, not "virtuous"... I enjoy the expectation of control over my body, despite being a hypersexualized hussy who had intercourse prior to marriage, who IS married, a minority, and not particularly classy, so sign me up for liberal society.
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