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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 22:24:06 GMT -5
Really? You just skipped over all the atrocities being suffered by women around the world to complain that feminists aren't nice enough to you? You couldn't even quickly acknowledge that those women are suffering more than you? I'm saying that I have no respect for the arguments of a group that doesn't bother to distinguish between the men perpetrating crimes against women and men in general. What am I supposed to take away from a rant where "men" are brutally oppressing women, "men" are treating women spitefully, "men" are raping and mutilating women, "men" have been the bane of women's existence since time immemorial, and yet I nor any of the men I know are guilty of these sins of "men"? What good is a blogger or ideologue who witnesses an injustice in Indonesia, fills herself to the full with righteous indignation, and, lacking the will/ability to do anything at all to help the women in Indonesia besides flapping her gums on a blog somewhere, generalizes her arguments to "men" and detonates in the midst of western society? Show me a feminist who actually flies over to Indonesia and does something rather than "raise awareness" like a bull in a China shop, and I'll show you a feminist I respect. Barring action, "raising awareness" is nothing but a big fat pyramid scheme. Let's see, I am a feminist that distinguishes between men but you are determined to ignore that, most of the feminist rhetoric I read talks about how the system is set up to repress women and specifically make the point that women can be part of the problem, raising awareness leads to raising money to support the people on the ground and motivating decision makers to make changes and there are many feminists that actually fly to Indonesia to do the leg work of making change.
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Feb 8, 2015 22:27:18 GMT -5
"We" are not responsible to change other countries/cultures into our way of thinking.
DH & I lived for over 2 yrs in Saudi Arabia when he was an expatriate on assignment there - we also toured/visited Egypt while living there.
I wasn't there to change them into "our" way of thinking, or way of life. I adapted to their culture while living in THEIR land - including covering my head and not wearing revealing clothing (by their standards) when out in public marketplaces, etc.
There are other cultures/countries too - India, Pakistan, China, and the list goes on.
As far as North America is concerned, the playing field for equality has leveled out a LOT in the last decade or two to the point that I don't even consider Canada or the US as having gender inequality.
Anyplace I've worked has treated all employees equally and given out promotions or raises based on skill, valued input and work performance, and length of service - not whether or not you have a p*nis.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 22:43:42 GMT -5
No, you just reject that authority. You actually reject the dictionary as an unbiased and authoritative source.
You absolutely refuse to acknowledge that that is a small portion of the feminist rhetoric and a large portion of it is very reasonable. Feminists have gotten women the vote, helped with domestic violence laws and a myriad of improvements for women in the western world. I am proud to be part of that tradition.
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Post by Opti on Feb 8, 2015 23:13:40 GMT -5
You've missed the point that if you fall back to the unqualified dictionary definition, you lose the argument. For the reasons I stated, PIV = rape precisely meets the definition in the minds of some feminists. We may not accept their logic, but nothing in the definition stipulates that feminism need be logical. Some feminists believe justice is served best by fighting fire with fire, and that women best restore equity by matching chauvinism with chauvinism. Ergo this too meets the generalized definition of feminism. As you might guess, I don't think this example is about getting equal rights. Equity did not exist, so it can not be restored. Yes some people think acting as assholeish as someone else accomplishes something useful, but generally I am not one of them.
Some feminists believe that equality is only truly achieved when women are indistinguishable from men, and that people (in particular, men) who think differently are enemies of equality and the enemies of womankind. Since their ultimate aim is the establishment of equality, they also meet the definition of feminist. Some feminists believe that guilting men for sake of the sins of their gender is conducive to bringing about equality. We can go on and on through the Wiki list of third-wave feminists and similarly tie their branches down into the root, which is your generalized definition. If we go purely by the dictionary definition, you've proved the very opposite of the exclusivist argument you're trying to make. What you've previously attempted to do is attach caveats on what constitutes genuine inequality and what constitutes appropriate ways of combating it, but these are plainly your opinions. They're not subsumed by the dictionary definition, the literature, or anything else. By this point, I think it's reasonably safe to conclude that neither you nor laterbloomer can provide justification for the authority of your many caveats, hence let's end the debate on a positive note by at least agreeing that your definition is just as correct as any other. As laterbloomer puts it, she's not going to stop calling herself a feminist simply because a mess of other doctrines fall under the umbrella of third-wave feminism, and I applaud her standing fast in defense of her ideals. No I am not going to agree that my definition or the dictionary definition is good as any other. I am not going to agree with you or Paul that PIV is a mainstream or even fundamental part of feminism. Just No.
I use the dictionary definition my way just as you apparently define feminism as whatever I can find linked to the word in the Internet. I do not think hate as a strategy has ever worked nor is appropriate for any group pursuing equality. Therefore I will not call women who use such a strategy feminists. It is true the definition does not include the qualifier reasonable and effective means. On the other hand, it does not state any means believed to this end no matter how wacky either.
So long, farewell, ... Good night ...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 23:20:11 GMT -5
As for saying I'm not a feminist if I don't go to Indonesia, that's like saying you can't talk about Christianity if you don't follow Luke18:22
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Post by Opti on Feb 8, 2015 23:24:59 GMT -5
So ... if someday the Chinese decide female babies are as desireable as male babies and female infanticide no longer occurs we are punishing what group of people? Those that could have grown up without a female sibling?
I'm saying that if the only thing you're willing to do about it is opine about how terrible "men" are to women, find something more productive to do. Do I look like a proponent of female infanticide to you? Opining is punishing? Are you $%#@)*! serious?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 9, 2015 1:01:16 GMT -5
...raising awareness leads to raising money to support the people on the ground and motivating decision makers to make changes and there are many feminists that actually fly to Indonesia to do the leg work of making change. This is fundraising and actually flying to Indonesia to do the legwork. Not raising awareness. "Raising awareness" is twits tweeting, bloggers blogging, and various other forms of gum flappery that simply defer the work to other people. No, you just reject that authority. You actually reject the dictionary as an unbiased and authoritative source. This is a totally bogus interpretation of Reply #193. If you want to play games rather than earnestly defend your views from criticism, be my guest. You and Optimist can have your echo chamber and endlessly ponder why nobody else gives a damn about your definition of feminism. You absolutely refuse to acknowledge that that is a small portion of the feminist rhetoric and a large portion of it is very reasonable. Feminists have gotten women the vote, helped with domestic violence laws and a myriad of improvements for women in the western world. I am proud to be part of that tradition. I haven't said a single word about the proportional adherence to feminist doctrines. I don't know what proportion of self-identifying feminists adhere to what doctrines. Do you? My point is that they are all feminism. As for womens' suffrage and domestic violence laws, praise to those pioneers who were dead long before my grandparents were born. Praise to those feminists fighting on the front line today to end sex slavery, end FGM, create safe work environments for women, etc. Unless you're actively fundraising or out there on the front lines with them, you're not "part of that tradition"; you haven't done jack except muse about feminism while sipping lattes in front of your computer. If you're like Ms. Hess and you spend your time praising the hilarity of women raping men in TV dramas, you're not only "part of that tradition", you're part of the problem. Regardless, if your goal is to establish equality for women--however you define equality, and by whatever means you find suitable--you meet the dictionary definition of feminist. I see no reason why you shouldn't call yourself a feminist. You've missed the point that if you fall back to the unqualified dictionary definition, you lose the argument. For the reasons I stated, PIV = rape precisely meets the definition in the minds of some feminists. We may not accept their logic, but nothing in the definition stipulates that feminism need be logical. Some feminists believe justice is served best by fighting fire with fire, and that women best restore equity by matching chauvinism with chauvinism. Ergo this too meets the generalized definition of feminism. As you might guess, I don't think this example is about getting equal rights. Equity did not exist, so it can not be restored. Yes some people think acting as assholeish as someone else accomplishes something useful, but generally I am not one of them.No I am not going to agree that my definition or the dictionary definition is good as any other. ... I use the dictionary definition my way just as you apparently define feminism as whatever I can find linked to the word in the Internet. ... Therefore I will not call women who use such a strategy feminists.
Good for you. And if you don't care about having a definition that bears scrutiny or persuading any critical person that X, Y, and Z isn't feminism, it's a mighty fine definition indeed. I'm saying that if the only thing you're willing to do about it is opine about how terrible "men" are to women, find something more productive to do. Do I look like a proponent of female infanticide to you? Opining is punishing? Are you $%#@)*! serious? Opining is useless. Or more accurately: opining is useless or counterproductive. I don't know where you're getting "punishing" from. That's your word. Are you "punishing" me by blaming my gender for Chinese infanticide? I wouldn't say so. I would say you're demonstrating contempt for the distinction between men and the people (of both genders) who support Chinese infanticide, and that if I genuinely care about Chinese infanticide I'm going to want to look anywhere besides your writings to figure out what to do about it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 4:02:37 GMT -5
Feminism: In part, I believe is-
One who believes they are suffering a lack of a specified benefit that is considered important. In another word. Deprived.
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Post by Opti on Feb 9, 2015 9:39:02 GMT -5
I am not trying to create that definition. I've been very clear on that point. But thank you for noticing the mighty fine part.
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Post by Opti on Feb 9, 2015 9:50:38 GMT -5
Actually I had hinted at it in that one post, but Optimist reminded me I wanted to highlight it. Feminism is not just about the issues faced by women in the Western world. By comparison we have it good, which is a really scary thing to have to say when we still have issues of women being abducted as sex slaves, being more likely to live in poverty with their children etc. Around the world there are many places women have no rights, female babies in China are still at risk, schools full of young women are being kidnapped by terrorists, in some Islamic countries woman can only show their eyes...and the list goes on. There is a lot to work on in the name of Feminism. ...and it suffers from the same illogic as terrorism, that is to see an injustice being committed by one group of people, and, lacking the ability to punish that group of people specifically, taking it out an entirely different group of people. Where O where did Optimist get the word punish from? Reply #191. Perhaps I read this wrong with you linking the behavior up to terrorism and all. But it does seem your intention is to declare that 1) punishment is desired ( I do not believe this is in true in all cases nor probably even most) therefore 2) punishment is displaced onto another group.
You see punishment is desired because that is your belief. It is not because that has been posted by a poster.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 9:54:28 GMT -5
No. Perhaps they are all feminists, but feminism, according to the dictionary, is the believe that women are equal and entitled to equal rights. Feminists may debate the best way to do that. It does not negate feminism. No philosophy can withstand the standard you are setting for feminism, including liberalism, conservatism, democracy, Christianity, and Capitalism. The people that identify in each of those categories have wide ranging views as well. You don't suggest throwing away all of those philosophies because of the subsets you don't agree with.
Awww but how you wish that were true. Public opinion has a very big influence in our day and age. And you have no idea what I do as well as sitting in front of my computer with my latte.
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Post by Opti on Feb 9, 2015 10:05:36 GMT -5
Virgil WTE? I didn't blame any gender for Chinese infanticide. I merely said it exists and I find it a problem.
You are displaying a distinct lack of ability to distinguish between the dialogue that is running through your head with what I have actually written. If you were to ask, I would blame the traditional gender roles in China first and foremost.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 10:08:52 GMT -5
You aren't very versed in using drama to illustrate a point are you? Strangely enough Ms. Hess does a good job making you very uncomfortable see the world as it appears to many women. There are many situations where men brag about raping women, I'm not accusing you of this, I am saying some men do. It is such a part of the culture that it often goes pretty much unnoticed or uncommented on. From the brief synopsis I read of that show, Ms. Hess characters behave as some young men behave. And you are outraged. The hope is that it will make you more sensitive if/when men behave that way.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 10:18:28 GMT -5
The jist of what she wrote is I want to speak about women's issues and not get redirected into men's issues. And you brilliantly proved her point by using her quote as a jumping off point to decide it was about "bad men" and all sorts of unrelated stuff.
Now I could be wrong, I think "for the problems of tens or hundreds of men" is unintentionally inflammatory and was meant to contrast how women are treated all over the globe with the fact men generally have more rights globally than women do. Perhaps Later will clarify. I read it totally different than you did.
Isn't it bad men who are the perpetrators in most cases though? It seems like you can't really have a good discussion about the problems women are facing without bringing up the "why" behind it, which is the part of the conversation that I'm most interested in. I feel that's the best way to fix the problem. If it's viewed as distorting a thread, then I'll try to avoid the subject though. I don't understand what you are saying here. What do you mean?
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 9, 2015 10:22:27 GMT -5
... There are many situations where men brag about raping women, ... I am saying some men do. It is such a part of the culture that it often goes pretty much unnoticed or uncommented on. ... Hell of a statement there.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 10:52:28 GMT -5
... There are many situations where men brag about raping women, ... I am saying some men do. It is such a part of the culture that it often goes pretty much unnoticed or uncommented on. ... Hell of a statement there. Scary isn't it?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 9, 2015 10:55:12 GMT -5
...and it suffers from the same illogic as terrorism, that is to see an injustice being committed by one group of people, and, lacking the ability to punish that group of people specifically, taking it out an entirely different group of people. Where O where did Optimist get the word punish from? Reply #191. Perhaps I read this wrong with you linking the behavior up to terrorism and all. But it does seem your intention is to declare that 1) punishment is desired ( I do not believe this is in true in all cases nor probably even most) therefore 2) punishment is displaced onto another group.
You see punishment is desired because that is your belief. It is not because that has been posted by a poster.
Ah. I see where you got the word from now. My apologies. Let me clarify. You're reading a bit too far into the analogy. The terrorist seeks to punish the wrong group of people. The indiscriminate feminist seeks to malign the wrong group of people. The common element--and the point of the analogy--is frustration directed at the wrong group of people.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 9, 2015 11:08:37 GMT -5
You aren't very versed in using drama to illustrate a point are you? Strangely enough Ms. Hess does a good job making you very uncomfortable see the world as it appears to many women. There are many situations where men brag about raping women, I'm not accusing you of this, I am saying some men do. It is such a part of the culture that it often goes pretty much unnoticed or uncommented on. From the brief synopsis I read of that show, Ms. Hess characters behave as some young men behave. And you are outraged. The hope is that it will make you more sensitive if/when men behave that way. In other words, never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. I suppose so. Unfortunately for Ms. Hess, one's motivation for hypocrisy is irrelevant to establishing the existence of hypocrisy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 11:15:24 GMT -5
You aren't very versed in using drama to illustrate a point are you? Strangely enough Ms. Hess does a good job making you very uncomfortable see the world as it appears to many women. There are many situations where men brag about raping women, I'm not accusing you of this, I am saying some men do. It is such a part of the culture that it often goes pretty much unnoticed or uncommented on. From the brief synopsis I read of that show, Ms. Hess characters behave as some young men behave. And you are outraged. The hope is that it will make you more sensitive if/when men behave that way. In other words, never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. I suppose so. Unfortunately for Ms. Hess, one's motivation for hypocrisy is irrelevant to establishing the existence of hypocrisy. Like I said, the show isn't to my taste. You've actually watched more of it, and her, than I have.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 9, 2015 11:15:58 GMT -5
Virgil WTE? I didn't blame any gender for Chinese infanticide. I merely said it exists and I find it a problem.
You are displaying a distinct lack of ability to distinguish between the dialogue that is running through your head with what I have actually written. If you were to ask, I would blame the traditional gender roles in China first and foremost. How about blaming the Chinese government for instituting a one-child rule? Or blaming the specific families in China that value their gender preference more than they value human life? As long as you aren't off authoring books about how Chinese infanticide is yet more evidence of man's inhumanity to woman, my grievance need not apply to you. I was replying to your hypothetical.
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 9, 2015 11:16:29 GMT -5
Hell of a statement there. Scary isn't it? Not particularly to me. I have seen the claim voiced many times before.
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Post by Opti on Feb 9, 2015 11:42:21 GMT -5
...and it suffers from the same illogic as terrorism, that is to see an injustice being committed by one group of people, and, lacking the ability to punish that group of people specifically, taking it out an entirely different group of people. So ... if someday the Chinese decide female babies are as desireable as male babies and female infanticide no longer occurs we are punishing what group of people? Those that could have grown up without a female sibling?
Virgil, this is my one and only Chinese infanticide hypothetical. Your post does not compute.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 9, 2015 11:56:41 GMT -5
So ... if someday the Chinese decide female babies are as desireable as male babies and female infanticide no longer occurs we are punishing what group of people? Those that could have grown up without a female sibling?
Virgil, this is my one and only Chinese infanticide hypothetical. Your post does not compute.
I'll phrase it this way: What does Chinese infanticide have to do with feminism? The fact that the babies being killed are predominantly female? Am I a feminist because I too condemn Chinese infanticide? If the genocide was of male babies, would you personally stop caring? Why are you bringing this up in the context of this discussion? Maybe that's where the confusion is creeping in.
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Post by Opti on Feb 9, 2015 12:02:15 GMT -5
Where O where did Optimist get the word punish from? Reply #191. Perhaps I read this wrong with you linking the behavior up to terrorism and all. But it does seem your intention is to declare that 1) punishment is desired ( I do not believe this is in true in all cases nor probably even most) therefore 2) punishment is displaced onto another group.
You see punishment is desired because that is your belief. It is not because that has been posted by a poster.
Ah. I see where you got the word from now. My apologies. Let me clarify. You're reading a bit too far into the analogy. The terrorist seeks to punish the wrong group of people. The indiscriminate feminist seeks to malign the wrong group of people. The common element--and the point of the analogy--is frustration directed at the wrong group of people. It was a bad analogy. Feminism does not equal what you call indiscriminate feminists. I will repeat, I do not acknowledge these people as feminists. I reject their (and yours) assertion. It is much like you and I both reject the Westboro Baptist's assertion they are Christian.
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Post by Opti on Feb 9, 2015 12:13:48 GMT -5
Virgil, this is my one and only Chinese infanticide hypothetical. Your post does not compute.
I'll phrase it this way: What does Chinese infanticide have to do with feminism? The fact that the babies being killed are predominantly female? Am I a feminist because I too condemn Chinese infanticide? If the genocide was of male babies, would you personally stop caring? Why are you bringing this up in the context of this discussion? Maybe that's where the confusion is creeping in. I used it as an example for your punishment post which seemed illogical to me. Let it go.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 12:24:50 GMT -5
Not particularly to me. I have seen the claim voiced many times before.
link
I'm not saying all men do this. I'm saying it happens.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 9, 2015 12:27:24 GMT -5
Awww but how you wish that were true. Public opinion has a very big influence in our day and age. And you have no idea what I do as well as sitting in front of my computer with my latte. Talk is cheap. Never more so than today when one can't throw a rock without it hitting some do-nothing activist's venture in "raising awareness". Here's some advice: if you want people to think favourably of feminism, stop plugging your homemade definitions in debate threads, set up a thread to document your hands-on exploits in combating slavery, FGM, etc., and show the lot of us what you want feminism to be rather than telling us what you want it to be. You might even want to passively solicit funds for your work. At the very least it will put any speculation to rest that you're just sitting on your duff sipping lattes, "raising awareness".
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 9, 2015 12:36:23 GMT -5
Not particularly to me. I have seen the claim voiced many times before.
link
I'm not saying all men do this. I'm saying it happens. Link didn't work for me but I Googled and found quite a lot of comments and official sanctions handed out in the situation.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 12:50:12 GMT -5
Awww but how you wish that were true. Public opinion has a very big influence in our day and age. And you have no idea what I do as well as sitting in front of my computer with my latte. Talk is cheap. Never more so than today when one can't throw a rock without it hitting some do-nothing activist's venture in "raising awareness". Here's some advice: if you want people to think favourably of feminism, stop plugging your homemade definitions in debate threads, set up a thread to document your hands-on exploits in combating slavery, FGM, etc., and show the lot of us what you want feminism to be rather than telling us what you want it to be. You might even want to passively solicit funds for your work. At the very least it will put any speculation to rest that you're just sitting on your duff sipping lattes, "raising awareness". I don't believe in soliciting funds on this board. It is completely against it's purpose in my mind.
The dictionary definition of feminism isn't my homemade definition.
I'm not positive but aren't your posts becoming personal attacks on me?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 12:51:26 GMT -5
link
I'm not saying all men do this. I'm saying it happens. Link didn't work for me but I Googled and found quite a lot of comments and official sanctions handed out in the situation. They were thank goodness, after it was made public and petitions were handed in. It is interesting to note it was going on for over a year before there was a whistle blower.
Eta - AND I know that many men were involved in protesting this behavior.
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