EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Feb 3, 2015 21:01:35 GMT -5
I wonder what Christie would do if there was an Ebola outbreak in the city and a vaccine was available........
This is what happens when politics get in front of science.
Measles deaths before vaccines were around 200 million people vs. what, 20,000 people from Ebola. That is a shocking difference- so why are the priorities of these goofballs exactly backwards?
It doesn't help when the misinformation spreaders equate measles to just a rash kids get- no big deal- or they tell how they had measles as a kid.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 3, 2015 21:06:21 GMT -5
I wonder what Christie would do if there was an Ebola outbreak in the city and a vaccine was available........
This is what happens when politics get in front of science.
Measles deaths before vaccines were around 200 million people vs. what, 20,000 people from Ebola. That is a shocking difference- so why are the priorities of these goofballs exactly backwards?
It doesn't help when the misinformation spreaders equate measles to just a rash kids get- no big deal- or they tell how they had measles as a kid.
He'd make sure his own kids got the vaccine. They got all the other shots.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 3, 2015 21:06:30 GMT -5
VACCINES DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM And with that I didn't even bother reading the rest, because if you can't understand that's it's been proven to not cause it, then there was probably something in there about vaccines causing people to turn into unicorns. At least you bothered to distinguish between autism and mental retardation. i was quoting Bachman, bro.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Feb 3, 2015 21:17:51 GMT -5
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 3, 2015 21:46:56 GMT -5
Please explain to me how Chris Christie can insist on the quarantine of a nurse who worked with Ebola patients in Africa, even though she did not show any signs of the disease, and but then say that vaccinating children is a parent's choice?
I don't know what *he* is thinking, but I'll guess some people think the following-
If someone does not vaccinate their kids, only those kids might get sick or die but if anything goes wrong with someone not yet showing symptoms of Ebola **I** might die a horrible death from Ebola.
That's my best guess.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Feb 3, 2015 21:55:18 GMT -5
M
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Feb 3, 2015 22:17:36 GMT -5
At least you bothered to distinguish between autism and mental retardation. i was quoting Bachman, bro. I swear that said Paul earlier...Bachman? Who the hell mentioned Bachman?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 3, 2015 22:18:42 GMT -5
And, to be blunt, this is why people with knowledge don't take anything (most) anti vaxers say seriously. It's been stated a few times on various threads there, with links to back up, that it's only still used in flu shots in the US but both of you refuse to believe it and seem to think that because the flu shot has it so does mmr and every other vaccine. Angel was the one who stated "Then they bow to pressure, they removed thimerosal from vaccines. And yet 14 years later that is still cited as a reason not to vaccinate." No caveats whatsoever to disclaim, "Oh, but they still use it in flu vaccines." She put forward a false argument. kittensaver called her on it, having seen thimerosal-based vaccines with her own eyes. It hardly matters that vaccines she wasn't going to receive no longer contain thimerosal.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 22:19:22 GMT -5
Baucman once said something like the HPV vaccine caused mental retardation in someone's child...
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 3, 2015 22:22:24 GMT -5
And, to be blunt, this is why people with knowledge don't take anything (most) anti vaxers say seriously. It's been stated a few times on various threads there, with links to back up, that it's only still used in flu shots in the US but both of you refuse to believe it and seem to think that because the flu shot has it so does mmr and every other vaccine. Angel was the one who stated "Then they bow to pressure, they removed thimerosal from vaccines. And yet 14 years later that is still cited as a reason not to vaccinate." No caveats whatsoever to disclaim, "Oh, but they still use it in flu vaccines." She put forward a false argument. kittensaver called her on it, having seen thimerosal-based vaccines with her own eyes. It hardly matters that vaccines she wasn't going to receive no longer contain thimerosal. Oh ffs it's not angels fault there's like three vaccine threads going on and the mods didn't combine them. Not to mention that fact is so easily googleable it helps your cause zero since you obviously didn't research at all before you got on the "mercury" train.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 3, 2015 22:23:06 GMT -5
At least you bothered to distinguish between autism and mental retardation. i was quoting Bachman, bro. Oh. That was hilarious.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 3, 2015 22:33:26 GMT -5
Angel was the one who stated "Then they bow to pressure, they removed thimerosal from vaccines. And yet 14 years later that is still cited as a reason not to vaccinate." No caveats whatsoever to disclaim, "Oh, but they still use it in flu vaccines." She put forward a false argument. kittensaver called her on it, having seen thimerosal-based vaccines with her own eyes. It hardly matters that vaccines she wasn't going to receive no longer contain thimerosal. Oh ffs it's not angels fault there's like three vaccine threads going on and the mods didn't combine them. Not to mention that fact is so easily googleable it helps your cause zero since you obviously didn't research at all before you got on the "mercury" train. What "mercury train"? My only post is a joke about kittensaver's thimerosal post. I don't care whether vaccines have thimerosal in them or not.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 3, 2015 22:41:09 GMT -5
Merged this thread with the previous vaccines thread in CE. Two is enough.
- Virgil (Mod)
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Feb 3, 2015 22:48:11 GMT -5
And, to be blunt, this is why people with knowledge don't take anything (most) anti vaxers say seriously. It's been stated a few times on various threads there, with links to back up, that it's only still used in flu shots in the US but both of you refuse to believe it and seem to think that because the flu shot has it so does mmr and every other vaccine. Angel was the one who stated "Then they bow to pressure, they removed thimerosal from vaccines. And yet 14 years later that is still cited as a reason not to vaccinate." No caveats whatsoever to disclaim, "Oh, but they still use it in flu vaccines." She put forward a false argument. kittensaver called her on it, having seen thimerosal-based vaccines with her own eyes. It hardly matters that vaccines she wasn't going to receive no longer contain thimerosal. It was specifically discussed in the thread where kitten posted the questions. In fact I posted about it response to question number 4 on her list and then it was brought up several more times. I guess I just expected people would keep up. Thimerosal has not been in CHILDREN'S vaccines in 14 years. It can still be found in multi-use vials. Those are not given to kids and as an adult it is not to hard thimerosal free vaccines. Given that the concern is autism for the most part and this has already been discussed several times I did not think it was necessary to add the caveat "except for multi-use flu vaccines". Clearly I was wrong. Had she read the label closer I'm sure it also said "for adult use only" as it did in the picture on the website containing her questions.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Feb 3, 2015 23:22:01 GMT -5
Baucman once said something like the HPV vaccine caused mental retardation in someone's child... But she is a retard so maybe that explains it.
Didn't Jenny McCarthy sp? the scientologist start this autism bullshit? And they question mental illness while being a member of a cult
Actually did read there was ONE study by a credentialed person that was discredited and yanked- and they lost their medical license over it. Rand Paul is on thin ice.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 3, 2015 23:43:48 GMT -5
Angel was the one who stated "Then they bow to pressure, they removed thimerosal from vaccines. And yet 14 years later that is still cited as a reason not to vaccinate." No caveats whatsoever to disclaim, "Oh, but they still use it in flu vaccines." She put forward a false argument. kittensaver called her on it, having seen thimerosal-based vaccines with her own eyes. It hardly matters that vaccines she wasn't going to receive no longer contain thimerosal. It was specifically discussed in the thread where kitten posted the questions. In fact I posted about it response to question number 4 on her list and then it was brought up several more times. I guess I just expected people would keep up. Thimerosal has not been in CHILDREN'S vaccines in 14 years. It can still be found in multi-use vials. Those are not given to kids and as an adult it is not to hard thimerosal free vaccines. Given that the concern is autism for the most part and this has already been discussed several times I did not think it was necessary to add the caveat "except for multi-use flu vaccines". Clearly I was wrong. Had she read the label closer I'm sure it also said "for adult use only" as it did in the picture on the website containing her questions. Ah. And here I was looking forward to a ride on the mercury train.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Feb 3, 2015 23:58:07 GMT -5
Actually children have rights. Parents don't 'own' their children... If they make it safely out of the womb... the government then takes over.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Feb 4, 2015 0:12:30 GMT -5
Here it is:
healthland.time.com/2010/05/24/doctor-behind-vaccine-autism-link-loses-license/
It took nearly six months but the General Medical Council (GMC) in the U.K. has pulled Dr. Andrew Wakefield’s license to practice medicine in the United Kingdom.
Wakefield is the researcher who nearly single-handedly fueled parental concerns about the link between vaccines and autism. In 1998, he published a paper in the medical journal Lancet describing eight children who showed signs of autism within days of being inoculated for measles, mumps and rubella. A gastroenterologist by training, Wakefield went on in further studies to suggest that the virus from the vaccine was leading to inflammation in the youngsters’ guts that then impeded normal brain development
In February, editors of the Lancet retracted Wakefield’s controversial paper, telling the Guardian “It was utterly clear, without any ambiguity at all, that the statements in the paper were utterly false.”
Next up- Rand Paul's medical license.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Feb 4, 2015 0:16:47 GMT -5
Actually children have rights. Parents don't 'own' their children... If they make it safely out of the womb... the government then takes over. Unless you are a republican- then they have your ass until you are born- then nobody gives a shit until you are old enough to join the military. Food? Healthcare?
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Feb 4, 2015 0:24:38 GMT -5
Rainman...What do you think? Disqualifier...yes...definite disqualifier.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Feb 4, 2015 0:30:28 GMT -5
KELLY EVANS: SENATOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE ON THE SHOW. IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU. AND LISTEN, WE HAVE A LOT TO GET TO HERE THAT IS IMPORTANT FOR OUR INVESTORS. BUT I JUST HAVE TO BEGIN BY ASKING DID YOU REALLY JUST SAY TO LAURA INGRAHAM THAT YOU THINK MOST VACCINES IN THIS COUNTRY SHOULD BE "VOLUNTARY"? RAND PAUL: WELL I GUESS BEING FOR FREEDOM WOULD BE REALLY UNUSUAL. I GUESS I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE POINT OF WHY THAT WOULD BE CONTROVERSIAL. EVANS: SENATOR, MAYBE YOU ARE NOT AWARE, BUT THERE IS A HUGE PROBLEM RIGHT NOW WITH DISNEY THEME PARKS HAVING TO CLOSE DOWN BECAUSE OF MUMPS. NOT ENOUGH CHILDREN BEING VACCINATED AGAINST MEASLES, MUMPS AND RUBELLA BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS, FOR WHATEVER REASON, HAVE DECIDED THAT IT IS VOLUNTARY. AND I CAN TELL YOU, PLENTY OF THE PEOPLE I WORK WITH ARE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR KIDS GETTING SICK AT SCHOOL. PAUL: HERE'S THE THING. THE THING IS I THINK VACCINES ARE ONE OF THE GREATEST MEDICAL BREAKTHROUGHS THAT WE HAVE. I'M A BIG FAN AND A GREAT FAN OF THE HISTORY OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE SMALL POX VACCINE FOR EXAMPLE. BUT YOU KNOW, FOR MOST OF OUR HISTORY, THEY HAVE BEEN VOLUNTARY. SO I DON'T THINK I'M ARGUING FOR ANYTHING OUT OF THE ORDINARY. WE ARE ARGUING FOR WHAT MOST OF OUR HISTORY HAS HAD. Hey! your caps lock is on! www.cnbc.com/id/102393053
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 4, 2015 1:05:18 GMT -5
For the sake of making this thread interesting, let us consider a hypothetical: Suppose the problem with vaccines isn't what they cause, but what they prevent. Up until the advent of vaccines, common diseases took their toll among children generationally. Exposure was common and universal. The weakest children (weakest in the sense of immune response) died, leaving behind a generation with greater genetic fitness. This generation in turn had children, the weakest were culled by disease, and those who remained gave rise to yet another generation. This process went on for millennia unchecked until the advent of vaccines. For the first time, vaccines allowed those children with weak immune systems, who'd have died if hit head-on with the virus, to survive and thrive in spite of their genetic infirmity. The critical element of selection was eliminated from the process of genetic propagation. And here begins our story. For a time, nobody notices or cares about this subversion of natural selection. After all, children can be vaccinated for diseases, mortality rates have plummeted, and all is well with the world. ...until the first generation of vaccinated children bear children of their own, and the small percentage of genetically unfit parents ("unfit" from the standpoint of having survived only by technological intervention) pass their compromised genes down to a new generation. Not a grave issue, certainly. This is a small percentage, and the benefits of vaccines are indisputable. All is still well with the world. ...until the second generation of children, again unchecked by any natural selection process to weed out mutations, defects, and inferior immune systems, bear children of their own, and the unfitness is now compounded over two generations. ...and then three. ...and then four. At about four generations, society begins to experience a notable increase in inexplicable illnesses. Autism. Asthma. Severe allergies. Lupus. Autoimmune disorders. Scientists and doctors are at a loss to explain it. Perhaps it's the vaccines, they theorize. But vaccinated populations live such fundamentally different lifestyles from unvaccinated populations--different foods, technologies, cultures, activities--it's impossible to tell where the effects of vaccines start and a litany of other health, social, and environmental factors ends, even over a single generation. All that can be concluded is that vaccine usage appears to have no quantifiable effects in the span of 10-20 years. Beyond this timeframe, prizing out a single factor from among the hundreds changing over the span of a generation is a fool's errand. The toll on scientific inquiry is predicable. Some unvaccinated populations seem to have similar disease rates; others don't. Some studies attempt to look at isolated communities but discover that the more isolated a community is, the more it differs from the rest of the world. Scientists find it impossible to separate vaccine use as a clean independent variable in anything more than a handful of small communities. Even here the results are mixed. Publishable results are inconclusive and highly contested. Confounding matters further, even populations that have never heard of vaccines are now subject to compounding genetic deficiencies. The diseases integral to the natural selection process have all but been wiped out. Both vaccinated populations and not are subject to the benefits of this ongoing golden era. The vaccinated generations roll on. Five. Six, leading to the turn of the new millennium. Autism rates are rising by the year, still with no identifiable cause. Autoimmune disorders have doubled from two decades earlier. Behavioural and neurological disorders are rising exponentially. Most shocking of all, however, mortality rates due to preventable diseases begin to rise. The system responds by producing more vaccines. Influenza. Chicken pox. H1N1. New vaccine-resistant viral strains begin to appear. Illnesses like polio, once thought to be totally eradicated, begin a resurgence. "A lack of vaccine use. A lack of herd immunity," some scientists claim, but the data doesn't support their conclusions, leading to pointed skepticism even among their peers. The resurgence is happening both in highly vaccinated communities and not. It seems as though the very genetic fitness of the human species has randomly degraded somehow, like an image photocopied over and over again with none of the smudges or imperfections edited out in each subsequent iteration, giving rise to a mysterious, unpredictable degradation that defies characterization. And here the text stops. How does the story end? That is up for you to decide, dear reader.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 5:59:40 GMT -5
We are definitely post evolutionary in our development. We have bypassed natural selection in many more ways than vaccines. Not sure why that would be the first place one would choose an attempt to revert?
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Feb 4, 2015 6:34:05 GMT -5
Is this suddenly the new talking point of the Left and the next group to Demonize? Parents have a right to say NO I don't want my kid injected with a vaccine. My kids are vaccinated. If theirs are not that is up to the parents.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 4, 2015 8:26:45 GMT -5
Is this suddenly the new talking point of the Left and the next group to Demonize? Parents have a right to say NO I don't want my kid injected with a vaccine. My kids are vaccinated. If theirs are not that is up to the parents. I just knew Dr. Ben Carson was a closeted leftie. "Certain communicable diseases have been largely eradicated by immunization policies in this country and we should not allow those diseases to return by foregoing safe immunization programs, for philosophical, religious or other reasons when we have the means to eradicate them,” he added." Ben Carson backs vaccinations as 'safe'
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Feb 4, 2015 9:33:55 GMT -5
FWIW, I was at the walk-in clinic at Kaiser in November (that's 2014, just under three months ago) and they offered me a flu shot (even though my doctor has put in my chart that I'm exempt for medical reasons ). To be fair, they just routinely offer it to everyone. Just for fun, I asked to see the insert of the vaccine bottle they were using that day. They handed it (the box and the insert) over to me. It was labeled 2014, aaaaaaaaaaand - - $100 in funny money goes to the first person who can tell me what was in the ingredients (hint: it started with a "T").
So much for "14 years ago."
If you were following the thread, it has been stated several times it is still in multi-use vials for flu shots. There are single use shots that contain no thimerosal. Well FWIW, I did follow the whole thread. But hey - I was just quoting YOU, lol. I don't think I should be accused of being the only one making blanket statements! To wit: "The mmr vaccine has been around since the 60s. It is ridiculous to think there are all sorts of unknown side effects and that it hasn't been adequately studied. Then they bow to pressure, they removed thimerosal from vaccines. And yet 14 years later that is still cited as a reason not to vaccinate."
I do not see any qualifiers here . . . I was responding to the lack of a qualifier, period. You made a blanket statement that is not true.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 4, 2015 9:48:28 GMT -5
The qualifier is right there! It's the second word! The entire paragraph is about the mmr vaccine.
You're the only one bringing flu vaccines into the conversion. Schools aren't keeping kids out for not taking the flu vaccine. People aren't endlessly harping incorrectly on the flu vaccine.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 4, 2015 10:21:27 GMT -5
DH has a rare autoimmune disorder. Four generations ago they didn't have a name for it so no one would have been diagnosed with it. You just would have died young and mysteriously, like a ton of other people. Until the 70's and the advent of prednisone and cancer drugs people with his disease died 5 months to a 1 year after diagnosis. One of the leading causes of death for his disease is heart attack or stroke because it weakens blood vessels. If someone had died of a heart attack forty years ago at the age of 25 they would have thought it was stress, not jumped to the idea that it was caused by underlying auto-immune disorder. That's part of it, but rates have been rising long since they were properly able to diagnose these conditions. The same is true for autism, ADHD, severe allergies, and mental illness. Improved diagnosis only accounts for a fraction of the observable increase. Also, the fact that your husband would have died before giving birth to your children is consistent with the theory that technological intervention has subverted the process of natural selection.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 4, 2015 10:24:58 GMT -5
DH has a rare autoimmune disorder. Four generations ago they didn't have a name for it so no one would have been diagnosed with it. You just would have died young and mysteriously, like a ton of other people. Until the 70's and the advent of prednisone and cancer drugs people with his disease died 5 months to a 1 year after diagnosis. One of the leading causes of death for his disease is heart attack or stroke because it weakens blood vessels. If someone had died of a heart attack forty years ago at the age of 25 they would have thought it was stress, not jumped to the idea that it was caused by underlying auto-immune disorder. That's part of it, but rates have been rising long since they were properly able to diagnose these conditions. The same is true for autism, ADHD, severe allergies, and mental illness. Improved diagnosis only accounts for a fraction of the observable increase. Also, the fact that your husband would have died before giving birth to your children is consistent with the theory that technological intervention has subverted the process of natural selection. No it's not. At the age of 25, a male would have had, what 10+ years of a potential sex life? He could very well have father multiple children by the age of 25 although that might vary some depending on what historical era we're talking about.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 4, 2015 10:32:12 GMT -5
We are definitely post evolutionary in our development. We have bypassed natural selection in many more ways than vaccines. Not sure why that would be the first place one would choose an attempt to revert? I'm not suggesting that we revert. Regardless, if the theory is correct, vaccination opponents would be wise to eschew vaccines. I get hints of evolutionary thinking in the 'right to be sick' literature. It certainly isn't a popular (or politically correct) view, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have merit. And to answer your question, immunization is a particularly attractive choice for reversion because childhood disease is a particularly powerful and indiscriminate selector of genetic fitness.
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