NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,270
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 3, 2015 15:51:28 GMT -5
Cause he's trying to get votes and is going with the current loudest public opinion?
Just like any other politician it isn't about being consistent or actually standing for something, it's about whatever they need to do to get people to stuff the ballot box.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,147
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 3, 2015 15:59:45 GMT -5
this is an interesting observation, but i don't think it is very accurate.
the social contract endows the government with powers from those who consent to give it. it does not endow the government to powers that are forbidden by the constitution (or in case law, when the constitution fails to answer the question).
in this case, i think either case could be made. however, i was not actually arguing for a government mandate. what i was arguing is that we stop making stupid arguments about whether the vaccine turns kids into retards or not. that is well established. i think the government should advise people to get vaccinated. i think that schools should probably demand it, if they had any jurisdiction or sense, given the highly contagious nature of the disease, and the fact that they are public institutions, with the associated public risks.
I thought Paul managed to convince you that the social contract has nothing to do with consent. You're born into it and required to adhere to the terms whether or not you like them. The only escape is to move to Antarctica. Since you've insisted that getting to an ID-issuing office once every five years is divesting people of their right to vote, I can only assume that you consider "If you don't like it, move to Antarctica." to be divesting people of their right to decline the social contract. As for government powers forbidden by the Constitution, I'm not sure if you've looked around lately, but... Thirdly, anti-vaccine parents/doctors are generally worried about allergic reactions, autoimmune disorders, autism, and the known unknowns of vaccines, not what you've suggested. I'll also point out that numerous posters take considerable offense to the word "retards", especially when the term is used as a catch-all. Finally, if public schools demand vaccines, so be it. Parents will take their kids out of public schools en masse and either homeschool them or put them in private schools with no such requirements. In the case of homeschooling, it will significantly reduce the kids' risk of coming into contact with an infected person in the first place, hence it all works out for the best. Let's just hope that Sec. Holder and others who've openly talked about abolishing home schooling in America don't get their way in the interim. no, Paul has yet to convince me of anything that is verifiably false, as is your comment about autism. and much of the rest of your post is similarly speculative, so i am not feeling terribly inspired to comment on it any further.
|
|
mroped
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 17, 2014 17:36:56 GMT -5
Posts: 3,453
|
Post by mroped on Feb 3, 2015 16:00:13 GMT -5
Emphasys on "Ebola" and "Africa" people! If you haven't been outside of the USA I believe that it should be your choice to vaccinate or not. Once you stepped out, if necessary you should go through quarantine. It is precautionary! We have somewhat knowledge or control of what's going on in US but none of it outside the borders.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,327
|
Post by swamp on Feb 3, 2015 16:01:36 GMT -5
Emphasys on "Ebola" and "Africa" people! If you haven't been outside of the USA I believe that it should be your choice to vaccinate or not. Once you stepped out, if necessary you should go through quarantine. It is precautionary! We have somewhat knowledge or control of what's going on in US but none of it outside the borders. we've got a pretty good handle on how ebola spreads. If she's not puking or shitting on anyone, she's not transmitting it.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Feb 3, 2015 16:02:10 GMT -5
VACCINES DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM
And with that I didn't even bother reading the rest, because if you can't understand that's it's been proven to not cause it, then there was probably something in there about vaccines causing people to turn into unicorns.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,147
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 3, 2015 16:09:57 GMT -5
Please explain to me how Chris Christie can insist on the quarantine of a nurse who worked with Ebola patients in Africa, even though she did not show any signs of the disease, and but then say that vaccinating children is a parent's choice?
because he believes in magical thinking rather than science, obviously. highly unpresidential.
|
|
mroped
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 17, 2014 17:36:56 GMT -5
Posts: 3,453
|
Post by mroped on Feb 3, 2015 16:11:20 GMT -5
What is the incubation period on Ebola? Maybe that was his concern based on what his advisors told him?! I'm prety sure that he knows squat about how Ebola works!
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,147
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 3, 2015 16:13:09 GMT -5
What is the incubation period on Ebola? Maybe that was his concern based on what his advisors told him?! I'm prety sure that he knows squat about how Ebola works! would you agree that before quarantining someone, he SHOULD know squat?
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,327
|
Post by swamp on Feb 3, 2015 16:13:34 GMT -5
What is the incubation period on Ebola? Maybe that was his concern based on what his advisors told him?! I'm prety sure that he knows squat about how Ebola works! The medical consensus was that quarantine is unnecessary.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,515
|
Post by Tennesseer on Feb 3, 2015 16:14:19 GMT -5
I've got nothing.
|
|
siralynn
Familiar Member
Joined: Jan 8, 2013 10:33:16 GMT -5
Posts: 528
|
Post by siralynn on Feb 3, 2015 16:16:10 GMT -5
I wasn't really in danger of voting for either Chris Christie or Rand Paul, but now it's pretty much confirmed.
|
|
ken a.k.a OMK
Senior Associate
They killed Kenny, the bastards.
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 14:39:20 GMT -5
Posts: 14,113
Location: Maryland
|
Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Feb 3, 2015 16:16:28 GMT -5
Even if you had Ebola, you weren't able to transmit it until you had a temperature.
You transmit measles before your symptoms show.
Big difference.
|
|
ken a.k.a OMK
Senior Associate
They killed Kenny, the bastards.
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 14:39:20 GMT -5
Posts: 14,113
Location: Maryland
|
Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Feb 3, 2015 16:18:44 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 6, 2024 1:38:19 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 16:20:16 GMT -5
Thanks swamp. I think I'm getting a divorce now...
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Feb 3, 2015 16:34:43 GMT -5
Clinton tweet: "The science is clear: The earth is round, the sky is blue, and #vaccineswork. Let's protect all our kids. #GrandmothersKnowBest" Ben Carson- somehow the voice of reason: "Certain communicable diseases have been largely eradicated by immunization policies in this country and we should not allow those diseases to return by foregoing safe immunization programs, for philosophical, religious or other reasons when we have the means to eradicate them," he told Buzzfeed. www.cnn.com/2015/02/02/politics/hillary-clinton-vaccines/I like this one from Rand Paul: "The state doesn't own your children," Paul said in an interview with CNBC's "Closing Bell." "Parents own the children, and it is an issue of freedom and public health."
|
|
b2r
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:35:25 GMT -5
Posts: 7,257
|
Post by b2r on Feb 3, 2015 16:37:48 GMT -5
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,147
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 3, 2015 16:37:55 GMT -5
Paul is right. the state doesn't own our children. death does.
we can either help death, or hinder him.
|
|
mroped
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 17, 2014 17:36:56 GMT -5
Posts: 3,453
|
Post by mroped on Feb 3, 2015 16:40:38 GMT -5
"I'm thinking! I'm thinking!" Badabim-Badaboom! Yes, I agree that he should've informed himself about how this things are working and at least know something about Ebola. What if his health advisor recomended that? What if he personaly wanted to stand out making that decision? After all the nurse in cause WAS in contact with people that had Ebola. There might be a chance that she has it in a latent form?! Why discard all possibilities? And she's making a big fuss of being deprived of a few days? Try answering in front of millions of people for not doing what you were suposed to!
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,147
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Feb 3, 2015 16:50:10 GMT -5
"I'm thinking! I'm thinking!" Badabim-Badaboom! Yes, I agree that he should've informed himself about how this things are working and at least know something about Ebola. What if his health advisor recomended that? What if he personaly wanted to stand out making that decision? After all the nurse in cause WAS in contact with people that had Ebola. There might be a chance that she has it in a latent form?! Why discard all possibilities? And she's making a big fuss of being deprived of a few days? Try answering in front of millions of people for not doing what you were suposed to! i thought about that question: if his health advisor advised that, i would question Christies advisor vetting process. also possibly a presidential disqualifier.
and if he wanted to stand out making a decision, that is fine. but as in the Wing Ding thread, if you stand out, you have to be prepared to defend your stand.
in this case, the nurse posed no risk to even ONE person, let alone millions. Christie should have known that.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 3, 2015 17:32:39 GMT -5
VACCINES DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM And with that I didn't even bother reading the rest, because if you can't understand that's it's been proven to not cause it, then there was probably something in there about vaccines causing people to turn into unicorns. At least you bothered to distinguish between autism and mental retardation.
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Feb 3, 2015 18:12:35 GMT -5
So, if you have religious beliefs, you're allowed to go around infecting people?
It's one thing if you refuse blood transfusions because you're a Jehovah's Witness. It's quite another if your religious decision impacts others.
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Feb 3, 2015 18:42:46 GMT -5
The mmr vaccine has been around since the 60s. It is ridiculous to think there are all sorts of unknown side effects and that it hasn't been adequately studied. Then they bow to pressure, they removed thimerosal from vaccines. And yet 14 years later that is still cited as a reason not to vaccinate.
Unfortunately I think there is a serious lack of critical thinking and science literacy in this country.
I think some of the hesitation stems from the idea that if you choose to vaccinate and there is a bad reaction, then you caused that. Whereas, if your child happens to get measles, that wasn't due to your direct action. Reminds me of those dilemmas where a train is going to kill people, but you can switch it to change the outcome.
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Feb 3, 2015 18:57:36 GMT -5
Fine. Have your freedom. That being said, don't let your cootie-infested children out in public.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 3, 2015 19:41:42 GMT -5
The mmr vaccine has been around since the 60s. It is ridiculous to think there are all sorts of unknown side effects and that it hasn't been adequately studied. Then they bow to pressure, they removed thimerosal from vaccines. And yet 14 years later that is still cited as a reason not to vaccinate. Indeed. Although my understanding is that thimerosal was only totally eliminated from vaccines more recently. In terms of unknown side effects, I can sympathize with anti-vaxers a bit. Speaking bluntly, health conditions that develop over long periods of time or by multiple causative factors are largely opaque to medical science. Studies typically look at immediate cause and effect in tightly controlled groups (usually over the period of 3-12 months), which are unsuitable for quantifying longer-term changes; or they look at large populations over long spans of time, but suffer huge penalties when factoring out a litany of other statistical variables. As a result, if other causative factors plus vaccines lead to conditions such as autoimmune disorders, etc., these are "drowned out" in the subsequent analysis unless they're extremely prevalent. If a genetic predisposition to a particular autoimmune disorder triggered by a vaccine exists in only 5% of Americans, for example, and the disorder can only be detected in the span of 20-30 years, medical science wouldn't have a hope in Hades of establishing the linkage empirically. That's the unfortunate reality of the complex world in which we live. The problem only gets worse if we consider the different brands and manufacturing techniques in vaccines, different inoculation schedules, etc., and if we consider the fact that problems caused by vaccines may not manifest in a consistent way from person to person. We know that the vaccines are created by culturing viruses and irradiating them to break them down into more primitive components that can prime the immune system. I don't need to tell you that irradiating organic material is a fundamentally chaotic process. You're going to get many thousands of organic compounds formed as a result, with the belief being that any harmful compounds are either filtered out or produced in such small quantities that the body can cope. I'm sure that in the vast majority of cases, it can. That doesn't change the fact that the final product is a weakly filtered cocktail of organic molecules whose actual composition is only known within certain statistical tolerances. What else is in there is a roll of the dice, hence my reference to "known unknowns". I know that certain organic compounds can cause all kinds of nonspecific neurological havoc even in tiny concentrations. The "trace amount" argument only works so far. In that light, what I'd expect to see is a huge spectrum of complications, symptoms, etc. corresponding to the fact that a huge spectrum of unknown organic agents have been injected into the bloodstream. And again, empirical medical science is 100% unequipped to detect causative links of this variety. It's hard enough to reliably detect one cause and one effect on a 3-12 month timeline. Hence this is a dilemma pitting the known benefits of vaccines against the known unknowns. I tend to agree that most of evidence supports vaccines being a far greater benefit than risk, but I don't condemn anybody who thinks otherwise. I also don't think people's aversion to vaccines has anything to do with a lack of scientific literacy. If anything, I'd say the anti-vaxxers I've talked with personally are among the most scientifically literate individuals I know. For various reasons, they just don't trust the prevailing consensus. That's one of the reasons I've posted in these two threads. There seems to be a lot of ignorance with people assuming that all--or even most--anti-vaxers are backward or unintelligent, which simply isn't true.
|
|
kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
Joined: Nov 22, 2011 16:16:36 GMT -5
Posts: 7,983
|
Post by kittensaver on Feb 3, 2015 20:03:04 GMT -5
The mmr vaccine has been around since the 60s. It is ridiculous to think there are all sorts of unknown side effects and that it hasn't been adequately studied. Then they bow to pressure, they removed thimerosal from vaccines. And yet 14 years later that is still cited as a reason not to vaccinate. Unfortunately I think there is a serious lack of critical thinking and science literacy in this country. I think some of the hesitation stems from the idea that if you choose to vaccinate and there is a bad reaction, then you caused that. Whereas, if your child happens to get measles, that wasn't due to your direct action. Reminds me of those dilemmas where a train is going to kill people, but you can switch it to change the outcome. FWIW, I was at the walk-in clinic at Kaiser in November (that's 2014, just under three months ago) and they offered me a flu shot (even though my doctor has put in my chart that I'm exempt for medical reasons ). To be fair, they just routinely offer it to everyone. Just for fun, I asked to see the insert of the vaccine bottle they were using that day. They handed it (the box and the insert) over to me. It was labeled 2014, aaaaaaaaaaand - - $100 in funny money goes to the first person who can tell me what was in the ingredients (hint: it started with a "T").
So much for "14 years ago."
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 6, 2024 1:38:19 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 20:13:02 GMT -5
Actually children have rights. Parents don't 'own' their children...
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 3, 2015 20:18:07 GMT -5
The mmr vaccine has been around since the 60s. It is ridiculous to think there are all sorts of unknown side effects and that it hasn't been adequately studied. Then they bow to pressure, they removed thimerosal from vaccines. And yet 14 years later that is still cited as a reason not to vaccinate. Unfortunately I think there is a serious lack of critical thinking and science literacy in this country. I think some of the hesitation stems from the idea that if you choose to vaccinate and there is a bad reaction, then you caused that. Whereas, if your child happens to get measles, that wasn't due to your direct action. Reminds me of those dilemmas where a train is going to kill people, but you can switch it to change the outcome. FWIW, I was at the walk-in clinic at Kaiser in November (that's 2014, just under three months ago) and they offered me a flu shot (even though my doctor has put in my chart that I'm exempt for medical reasons ). To be fair, they just routinely offer it to everyone. Just for fun, I asked to see the insert of the vaccine bottle they were using that day. They handed it (the box and the insert) over to me. It was labeled 2014, aaaaaaaaaaand - - $100 in funny money goes to the first person who can tell me what was in the ingredients (hint: it started with a "T").
So much for "14 years ago."
No, no, no. Nowadays they use thimeratol, not thimerosal. Don't tell me you haven't seen the "Morty Mercury" PSAs. Thimeratol, thimeratol, a wee poke and it's done, Thimeratol, thimeratol, vaccines are safe and fun...
I love that little metallic glob of goo.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Feb 3, 2015 20:18:59 GMT -5
The mmr vaccine has been around since the 60s. It is ridiculous to think there are all sorts of unknown side effects and that it hasn't been adequately studied. Then they bow to pressure, they removed thimerosal from vaccines. And yet 14 years later that is still cited as a reason not to vaccinate. Unfortunately I think there is a serious lack of critical thinking and science literacy in this country. I think some of the hesitation stems from the idea that if you choose to vaccinate and there is a bad reaction, then you caused that. Whereas, if your child happens to get measles, that wasn't due to your direct action. Reminds me of those dilemmas where a train is going to kill people, but you can switch it to change the outcome. FWIW, I was at the walk-in clinic at Kaiser in November (that's 2014, just under three months ago) and they offered me a flu shot (even though my doctor has put in my chart that I'm exempt for medical reasons ). To be fair, they just routinely offer it to everyone. Just for fun, I asked to see the insert of the vaccine bottle they were using that day. They handed it (the box and the insert) over to me. It was labeled 2014, aaaaaaaaaaand - - $100 in funny money goes to the first person who can tell me what was in the ingredients (hint: it started with a "T").
So much for "14 years ago."
If you've read the several threads it's been mentioned many times that the flu shot is the only one that still has it. Big guess - it was a multi use vial. It's the multi use ones that need a preservative.
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Feb 3, 2015 20:19:31 GMT -5
The mmr vaccine has been around since the 60s. It is ridiculous to think there are all sorts of unknown side effects and that it hasn't been adequately studied. Then they bow to pressure, they removed thimerosal from vaccines. And yet 14 years later that is still cited as a reason not to vaccinate. Unfortunately I think there is a serious lack of critical thinking and science literacy in this country. I think some of the hesitation stems from the idea that if you choose to vaccinate and there is a bad reaction, then you caused that. Whereas, if your child happens to get measles, that wasn't due to your direct action. Reminds me of those dilemmas where a train is going to kill people, but you can switch it to change the outcome. FWIW, I was at the walk-in clinic at Kaiser in November (that's 2014, just under three months ago) and they offered me a flu shot (even though my doctor has put in my chart that I'm exempt for medical reasons ). To be fair, they just routinely offer it to everyone. Just for fun, I asked to see the insert of the vaccine bottle they were using that day. They handed it (the box and the insert) over to me. It was labeled 2014, aaaaaaaaaaand - - $100 in funny money goes to the first person who can tell me what was in the ingredients (hint: it started with a "T").
So much for "14 years ago."
If you were following the thread, it has been stated several times it is still in multi-use vials for flu shots. There are single use shots that contain no thimerosal.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Feb 3, 2015 20:22:18 GMT -5
And, to be blunt, this is why people with knowledge don't take anything (most) anti vaxers say seriously. It's been stated a few times on various threads there, with links to back up, that it's only still used in flu shots in the US but both of you refuse to believe it and seem to think that because the flu shot has it so does mmr and every other vaccine.
|
|