shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Feb 2, 2015 13:06:20 GMT -5
I put this post up on my blog today:
I have a housing dilemma.
We learned in January that our long term (8 years) tenant in our out of state rental property will be moving. She’s been a fabulous tenant, and we are sad to see her go. While we have no problems being landlords, we don’t honestly want to be out of state landlords to a tenant we do not know, especially now that we do not have a built in property manager in my mom (since she has also left the area). So, we are selling the condo.
We own the condo free and clear, which means we should clear $50-60k after realtor fees and taxes. We are looking at taking that money and buying a nicer home where we are. We would prefer not to have to sell the house we are living in before buying a new home. We may choose to rent out the current house, but even if we do not, it will be just that much easier to get it ready for sale and to show it if we’re not currently living in it. Talking to our mortgage guy, we have two options. One is more complex and would leave me feeling less financially secure, but puts our buying power at $100k more than the simpler option.
We also have three goals for moving. In order of priority, they are: 1) Better schools for our daughter/future children 2) A shorter commute for me 3) A bigger/nicer house The bigger/nicer house option is lowest on the priority list because we could take that same $50-60k, and make some major renovations to our current home.
Our ideal area has great schools and a very short commute for me. However, for the most part, it would require us to go with the more complex, less financially secure option for the mortgage. There are some houses in the area we are looking at that meet our requirements and are in the price range for the simpler mortgage, but, while they may be bigger than our current house (as in have a second bathroom), they are not nicer. (These houses also sell within a week of coming on the market. Sadly, I am not exaggerating. Average time on market in the Seattle area right now is 17 days, and this include neighborhoods like mine, where houses are sitting on the market for months.)
If we went with one of those houses- ideal neighborhood, simple mortgage price range –the plan would be to then do the basic cleanup needed on our current house, sell it, and immediately use the $30k or so we’d get from that to do renovations on the new house. That puts us with the double inconvenience of going through escrow (twice) and renovations. That has us talking seriously about staying put and just doing the renovations needed for our house. While no renovations pay for themselves completely, some of them (like adding a 4th bedroom and 2nd bathroom) would certainly add to the value of our home.
A house I LOVE has come on the market. This house has been on and off the market since 2007, though never sold. At this point, it seems to come on the market for a few months, not sell, and then go off. I am not certain why (there have been a couple of inspections, so there might be something really wrong with it), or it might just be that the owners are not willing to lower their price. We first saw the house as an open house, probably in 2007 or 2008, when we were first considering moving my late MIL in with us. I fell in love with the house then. And now, it is back on the market, in the simple mortgage price range. Fate?
And here is my dilemma. This house is only half a mile from our current home. Not only would our daughter not move to a better school district, she would even be on the exact same bus she takes now, just a different stop. My commute would, obviously, not improve. That means that of our 3 reasons for moving, we would only be hitting one of them.
Though it would be hitting that reason big time. The house is considerably bigger (5bd/3.5ba vs 3bd/1ba) than our current home and is much nicer. Because it is the simpler mortgage, without a need to instantly sink more money into renovations, it would make keeping our current house and turning it into a rental financially viable. And location wise, that would also be incredibly convenient, with C only being a half mile away for any property management that needed to be done.
But, and I keep coming back to this but, our daughter remains in a school that is rated a 2 (on a scale of 1-10) instead of moving to a school that’s rated an 8 or 9. Still, this would be true if we just renovated our current house.
We have an appointment to view the house later this week. Maybe we will see it now and not love it as much we did before. Maybe we will be able to find out why the sale has not gone through after a couple of inspections and realize we do not want to deal with that. Or maybe we will remain in love with the house, in love enough that we will really have to review our priorities for moving. It is a dilemma.exterior shot of the house I LOVE
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2015 13:12:39 GMT -5
I wouldn't buy the 'love' house. You won't love it when it doesn't meet your needs as time goes on. It also seems like there might be something wrong with it... Keep thinking on that track..,
Can you expand upon the 'less secure' financial option?
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Feb 2, 2015 13:18:03 GMT -5
Because people on this board will ask, and I'm comfortable sharing it here, but not on the blog, here's the info about the two different mortgage options.
Option 1) Max $450k. We put ~$52k down, keep our current house without having to worry about rental income. We still have ~$15k in our pocket (~1yr of mortgage payments on the current house) to make improvements to the current house, either to keep as a rental or put up for sale.
Option 2) Max is $550k. We put ~$52k down. We pay the other $15k we have set aside toward our current mortgage, to get us at 30% equity, which is what we need to count rental income in our DTI ratio, which allows the higher price. We no longer have a year's worth of mortgage on house 1 set aside, and only a couple grand ($3k at most, likely) to do the improvements that would be needed.
Option 2 also makes it much less likely that I would want to rent out the house, as I wouldn't have had the money to really do more than new paint and carpets, and not deal with some of the other issues I would want to deal with (like the fact that the bathroom fan vents into the attic, not out of the house).
Also, because I know people will ask- we currently owe around $178k on our current house. Zillow estimates it as being worth $233k. If that estimate holds, we would need pretty much exactly $15k to get us to 30% equity. Zillow is not great in other places, but it's pretty accurate in the Seattle area. And given what some other houses in the neighborhood are on the market for, I don't think it's a stretch for that to be the estimate.
Our current mortgage payment is $1177/month. Our only other debt payments are on my undergraduate student loan, at $177/month.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2015 13:20:22 GMT -5
I'm going to take the b1tch route here, but try saying to yourself, 'I'm sorry you all had to go to a bad, underperforming school... And that the commute made it harder for me to get to your activities... But I really loved that house...'
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 2, 2015 13:20:24 GMT -5
I wouldn't buy the 'love' house. You won't love it when it doesn't meet your needs as time goes on. It also seems like there might be something wrong with it... Keep thinking on that track.., Can you expand upon the 'less secure' financial option? It sounds like there is something wrong with it. Is there any way to find out why it didn't sell before? I think the sellers need to disclose any known issues. When looking at the house, take a close look at the corners/floors and the walls near the ceiling. Is there a basement? Take a close took at the walls in the basement. You're looking for anything that would indicate things aren't perfectly square/cracks. I'm sure there's somewhere online that you can find a list of things that an inspector would look at. It could just be that the owners want way too much for the house as well, but like oped said, it doesn't fulfill you other needs/wants.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 2, 2015 13:23:14 GMT -5
I wouldn't do all of that unless I got a great school district. Just another house, even one you LOVE, doesn't change the basic issue. It's sticks and bricks after all is said and done. We bought this house solely on location and that is what sells in our area. Yes, we are in a good school district but only one family out of 25 has a child in school. Do I LOVE our house? I LIKE our house but I LOVE the location.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Feb 2, 2015 13:30:34 GMT -5
I'm going to take the b1tch route here, but try saying to yourself, 'I'm sorry you all had to go to a bad, underperforming school... And that the commute made it harder for me to get to your activities... But I really loved that house...' You really need to make sure you are looking at the whole picture. The commute, the neighborhood, the schools, the neighborhood, and the house itself.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Feb 2, 2015 13:33:20 GMT -5
My family just moved (7 months ago) specifically to get DD into a better school district. The house we moved from was my dream home. Rural area close to a train line, 2+ acres, in ground pool, gazebo with a 8 person hot tub and a small greenhouse.
It was quiet and peaceful and backed up to a nature preserve.
But as DD got older (we had her in a private school) we knew we had to do something. The HS options in our old area were crappy.
The fact that you rated better school district on your short list tells me a good education is important to you for your kids. No dream home will ever be able to make up for that. You'd likely end up moving again.
Why go through that twice?
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Feb 2, 2015 13:34:15 GMT -5
Is this whole building a one family house? From the angle in the shot it looks like a condo or apartment complex?
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Feb 2, 2015 13:52:11 GMT -5
oped - This is one of the problems. Pop Tart won't notice the difference between a 2 school and a 9 school, because she is so not focused on academics. She's focused on her friends and activities. All high schools are going to have cheerleading, even if only a few of them have a robotics club. That, and parental involvement makes a huge difference, and C, as a stay at home parent, is very involved in her education. My commute also isn't bad, so I do get to all of her activities.
C really is hoping that we don't love it, realize it won't meet our needs. And I will ask about what happened the couple times it went to inspection and that fell through. I don't know if their real estate agent has to tell me or not, but if we get the brush off, that's when I find myself a real estate agent to do the digging.
Other information about our current housing decisions.
We loved our first house. Loved it. If I could pick it up and plant it on my current lot, we probably wouldn't be considering moving. More likely we'd be considering using the money we'd be getting from selling the condo to pay for private school for Pop Tart and any other kid that comes along. However, our commute was 50 miles EACH WAY. Even doing that together, it was miserable. We were out of the house for 12+ hours a day. Having to do a similar commute on my own, without the benefit of carpool lanes, not happening. (Which is why we're not buying a house from these people, despite the fact that they are awesome amazing homes. We could only afford a home in the neighborhood that would make my commute miserable.)
We bought our current house specifically for location/commute reasons. (We didn't have any kids then, weren't talking about kids then.) It is 3 miles from the where I used to work. I had an 8 minute commute. I am the first to admit that was AWESOME. At the same time, we don't like our house. We haven't liked our house for the 10 years we have been in it.
My current commute is about 50 minutes each way, in commuter traffic. It's not 8 minutes by any stretch, but neither is it the 2 hours it used to take us to get home every day. During the summer and school breaks, my commute is closer to 35-40 minutes. In addition, next February, the light rail extension to the university will be completed, and if we stayed in our current area, I'd drive 5 minutes to the train station and then take the train to and from work. Time would probably be about the same, but I could read/decompress on my commute instead of drive.
As long as my commute stays under an hour, I am good. I like short commutes, but more important to me, is to actually like my house.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2015 13:53:49 GMT -5
Captain, did you sell your old house already ?
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Feb 2, 2015 13:54:34 GMT -5
skubikky - one family home. 5bd/3.5ba/3 car garage/3600 sq ft. (Current home: 3bd/1ba/1 car garage/1400 sq ft)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2015 13:57:36 GMT -5
Shane. I know you like the house. But 'they won't notice' is something you say about generic Popsicles... Not an education.
Could C homeschool if you stayed where you are?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Feb 2, 2015 13:58:16 GMT -5
Captain, did you sell your old house already ? Oh yea, 7 months ago. It actually sold quicker than we though and the stars lined up perfectly for us. I was prepared to carry two mortgages for months but only had to double up for one month. Thanks for asking!
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 2, 2015 14:14:33 GMT -5
On the place I was just looking at my realtor gave me the disclosure before hand. It was also included in the contract I was to sign.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Feb 2, 2015 14:37:30 GMT -5
oped - Here's the thing about school ratings - we don't actually know what they are basing them on, but we have a good idea that they use one of the very standard measures of how many kids are on free/reduced lunch programs. The more poor kids in the school, the lower the rating, regardless of the education they get. Pop Tart is currently in a school where LOTS of kids are on free/reduced lunch, and it has a very low rating. At the same time, we have had no issues with the level of education she has received. Her teachers are pushing her in math, her reading is getting better all the time, etc. And honestly, she WON'T notice if her high school offers one AP class or five. That's a reality of who my daughter is. So while I'd love for that to be an option for her, I am as certain as I can be that it's an option she would never take.
The other thing to mention is that I currently don't live in Seattle proper. If we move into actual Seattle, it's open districting. You pick your top 4 schools and submit it. They put you in one of them and are responsible for the transportation. You have a better chance of getting into a really good school if it's your neighborhood school, but it is NOT guaranteed.
Could C homeschool? Absolutely. Would that be a viable option for Pop Tart? Absolutely not. Again, this is an issue related to my child, but the way she compartmentalizes, and the way her behaviors differ, homeschool would NOT be successful for her. And I could easily see it ruining her and C's relationship.
justme - I'll be asking the realtor on Tuesday what happened with the previous inspections.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Feb 2, 2015 14:44:42 GMT -5
The problem for you, as I see it, is that you have nothing concrete to compare your "dream home" to.
Go out this weekend and actively and purposefully look at homes in locations that meet your commuting and educational needs. By that I mean: look at REAL contenders. Hook up with a realtor TODAY so that you have access to MLS listings and get advance notice of properties coming on the market in the near future.
For all you know, you may find a "dream home" in a "better" area (as you define it) that meets ALL of your criteria.
If not, then settle for the current dream home.
But, at this stage, I don't think you have enough information or research to settle just yet and be able to live with the negatives long-term.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2015 14:48:44 GMT -5
Sweetie, I'm not trying to be mean to you. YOU listed it as one of your major goals. If it's not, then take it off the list.
It sounds like you really, really want the house. Hopefully your tour will help you make the decision one wAy or the other.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Feb 2, 2015 14:54:11 GMT -5
As for the quality of the high school -- IMHO, the more competitive a high school is, the better it is for ALL students -- AP or not. I have one kiddo in AP and one who isn't in a VERY competitive high school. I found that both the administration and the teaching staff have a genuine desire to lift ALL kids up so that the school's reputation can be maintained. The key is that the desire to push all kids MUST be done very deftly so that those kids who aren't AP material -- including my own kiddo -- don't feel humiliated or discouraged. Even fundamental level courses were still appropriately challenging and more challenging than at lesser schools, so every student at my kids' school benefitted from the competitive environment. I even know kids who didn't hit their stride in school until high school but then had many options available to them when they did. MAYBE that will be Pop Tart.
So, don't discount the value of a competitive school district for Pop Tart -- or for future children.
As I said, JMHO. YMMV and very likely will.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Feb 2, 2015 14:56:43 GMT -5
And Shane, I know Poptart might not care about the quality of the school (as you said that is just who she is), but what about that second child you and C intend to adopt? I have moved more than 2 dozen times in my life, but once we (xH and I) had kids the schools always were #1 in our considerations of where to live.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Feb 2, 2015 14:58:51 GMT -5
One more point to consider: that "dream house" you posted can be re-created ANYWHERE.
One can always tear-down/rebuild/renovate/add-on to a house.
But, one can NEVER change the location or easily change the quality of a school district.
So, tour the "dream house". Take a bunch of pics. And, then, find a house in a better location that is amenable to becoming a twin of the "dream house".
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 2, 2015 15:04:19 GMT -5
oped - Here's the thing about school ratings - we don't actually know what they are basing them on, but we have a good idea that they use one of the very standard measures of how many kids are on free/reduced lunch programs. The more poor kids in the school, the lower the rating, regardless of the education they get. Pop Tart is currently in a school where LOTS of kids are on free/reduced lunch, and it has a very low rating. At the same time, we have had no issues with the level of education she has received. Her teachers are pushing her in math, her reading is getting better all the time, etc. And honestly, she WON'T notice if her high school offers one AP class or five. That's a reality of who my daughter is. So while I'd love for that to be an option for her, I am as certain as I can be that it's an option she would never take.
The other thing to mention is that I currently don't live in Seattle proper. If we move into actual Seattle, it's open districting. You pick your top 4 schools and submit it. They put you in one of them and are responsible for the transportation. You have a better chance of getting into a really good school if it's your neighborhood school, but it is NOT guaranteed.
Could C homeschool? Absolutely. Would that be a viable option for Pop Tart? Absolutely not. Again, this is an issue related to my child, but the way she compartmentalizes, and the way her behaviors differ, homeschool would NOT be successful for her. And I could easily see it ruining her and C's relationship.
justme - I'll be asking the realtor on Tuesday what happened with the previous inspections.
Regarding the school ranking. It probably takes into account test scores as well as a number of other factors. You and your daughter may not care about the availability of AP classes, and that's perfectly valid, but I bet there's a whole lot more that goes into the ranking than that. I think that the most important dimension to choosing a school is choosing your child's peer group. That factor isn't explicit in the rankings, but you can probably glean a little from the rankings there as well. So, why is the peer group so important if your child isn't going to be a brainiac? You probably don't want her to get into sex and drugs. I know you can run into that issue at the best of schools, but I would try to avoid that kind of environment for my child as much as possible. I have a niece who is 17. By all accounts, she should be a wild child. However, she's attending a more rural district where the kids actually seem very nice (not what I expect out of high-schoolers). This niece used to be snotty/bratty, but now she's a fairly good student, athlete, and just had her first kiss a couple months ago. I think that is due to the good influence of her peer-group. (As opposed to her mother, who was smoking, drinking and sexually active before 17). For my son, I worry about our neighborhood school. Rumor has it that the new crowd that has moved in has caused a lot of disruptions in the classroom. I'm fine with his having poor classmates, and I think racial diversity is awesome, but that is all trumped by disruptiveness. I don't want him to pick up bad habits and waste his time in school. Again, the peer group is the key.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2015 15:11:59 GMT -5
Is pop tart still in elementary ? Or middle school?
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Feb 2, 2015 15:42:09 GMT -5
GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl - actually, that's part of the appeal of this house. I DO know exactly what the SAME money will get me in our targeted neighborhoods. I follow the housing market for fun. I go to random open houses and view new construction all the time. We have also been going to open houses in the neighborhood we're targeting. However, most of them are out of our "simple" price range.
The house I LOVE in my neighborhood is $425k, it is 5bd/3.5ba/3 car garage/3600sqft/.39 acres, forced air heat, natural gas heat & stove, built in 1994. 26 mile commute to work. (Okay, my commute is longer, mile wise, than I realized.)
At 2.5 miles from work: $439k 4bd/1.75ba/1 car garage/1820sqft/6000sqft, forced air heat, oil heat, electric water heater & stove, built 1942. We would probably need to replace the windows. We would certainly want to re-do the kitchen as soon as possible. Enough has been done that it isn't considered a "fixer", but it is a "Perfect opportunity to build equity!", which is just one step above fixer
At 2.6 miles from work: $480k (so actually out of my price range) 3bd/1.75ba/1 cara garage/1680sqft/3420sqft, electric wall and baseboard heat (makes this a non-contender)
At 3.8 miles from work: $430k 3bd/1.75ba/off street parking/1660sqft/7000sqft, forced air heat, natural gas heat & stove, electric water heater, built 1944. If this house had any kind of covered parking, I'd buy it in a heart beat, over the house I love in my neighborhood. But I have two cars that run bioD. I need to be able to garage (or at least park under cover) at least one of them. This house has been on the market for 5 days. It is expected to sell within the next 9.
Once I get more than 7 miles north of where I work, I am out of the district I want. There is NOTHING within my price range within 7 miles south of where I work. Overall, the commute south is better than the commute north.
But honestly, the house I love in my neighborhood is NOT a dream home. It is just a house I love. I loved houses I saw this weekend even more (the builder I linked to above), but that I can't afford, or could afford in a place where my commute would suck. There is much charm in the house in my neighborhood because so much is a known quantity.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Feb 2, 2015 15:57:46 GMT -5
Okay, Shanen. You've done some research. But, does the Seattle real estate market heat up in the Spring like the New England market? In other words, will the number of houses for sale in your target neighborhood increase significantly in the near future, and, if so, should you wait to see what else comes on the market so that you can tick off all of the boxes?
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Feb 2, 2015 16:05:33 GMT -5
oped - It's not really you. It's me. It's partly competing priorities between C and I. My priorities are a not awful commute and a house I WANT to come home to. C's priorities are a neighborhood he likes and good schools. (Besides near the University, we're also considering West Seattle. We are looking in the Green Lake area, but for the most part, there's nothing there that meets our requirements in our price range. We're not really considering the east side because I don't really want to bridge commute.) It's also partly my own selfishness and natural defensiveness. I don't buy into the idea that I should be willing to be miserable so my kid can go to a better school. Education is a priority for us, but that means we make it a priority at home, as well as at school, so I know that no matter where she goes, we'll make sure she's learning what we think she needs to be learning, and we'll supplement it with other programs as we feel are appropriate. The same goes for any future child we adopt. We're also not opposed to private school if we decide that's the best option.
Pop Tart is currently in 5th grade, so elementary. Depending on the school next year, she'll either still be in elementary for 6th, or it will be at a middle school.
GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl - in no way do I have the money to tear down a house and build a new one. If I did, I would have done that on my current lot forever ago. And also, that's not strictly true. In addition to lot size (and you'll notice the differences in the houses I posted above) one of the houses I looked at recently had been declared a historical landmark. There is no tearing that house down to rebuild.
Lizard Queen - I know what you are saying. We are very involved in Pop Tart's social life (because at 11, she needs us to take her places) and pay very close attention to her friends. If current trends continue, I'm not going to need to worry about her falling in with the "wrong crowd". At the same time, I did spend time in high school with the wrong crowd. They smoked, drank, and a couple of the girls were pregnant by junior year. I was never pressured to do any of that. In fact, my friends actively protected me from anyone they thought might pressure me to do something I didn't want to do. But what that means is that I don't worry as much about what her friends might do as making sure she knows how to make the right decisions for herself.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2015 16:31:28 GMT -5
To me you can't really judge a district by elementary. While some will undoubtedly be better than others, most places can still do elementary well. Talk to people at the middle and high schools... Especially middle school. See what they say. Look at the school stats... Do more children fall further behind each year? Or is it consistent? What are the graduation rates like? What percentage go on for further education?
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Feb 2, 2015 17:11:25 GMT -5
Don't forget that good school districts hold up resale values.
I really don't think you should take something off your short list. Idk if that is a drive way or a street, but it doesn't look real safe.
Pop tart may not need #1 or #2 but I would aim for at least a middle of the road school district. What if it deteriorates?
Also, I have a 45 minute to an hour commute. I really think shortening your commute should remain a priority. I had some training downtown last week and was home in about 20 minutes, and I ask myself why I continue working the job with the long commute.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Feb 2, 2015 17:36:35 GMT -5
I agree that a great school district should be at or near the top of your list. DD's high school offered AP courses, & thanks to her taking them, & passing the exams we're going to save a full 1/2 year on college tuition costs.
Having been through the house hunt before DD started Kindergarten, I will say I found houses in 3 different excellent school districts that I thought I'd love enough to live in for a lot of years. We did end up building our current home, but I just want to reassure you that there are a lot of great houses out there!
The house you love IS very cute. Is it typical of construction in your area, or is it one of the "trendy" houses? Unfortunately, the contemporary or "trendy" houses are difficult to sell around here. It seems the houses that resemble the others in the neighborhood seem to sell more quickly. And, as you get older & decide climbing stairs isn't fun anymore, you'll want a house that is easier to sell. JMHO
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Feb 2, 2015 18:19:03 GMT -5
oped - we're not looking at the elementary school ratings, just the middle and high school.
bean29 - I've had an 8 minute commute. I've also had a 2+ hour commute. 50 minutes isn't bad. It doesn't bother me. I don't want to go to a longer commute, but if it stays roughly the same, I'm fine with that.
busymom - the house in my neighborhood that I love is not like any other house in the neighborhood. Trendy housing looks like this:
We call this look the Taj Mahal
We have the "standard" high end new construction look
And the "standard" supposedly affordable new construction
I will note that the last house is 4bd/2.5ba/2730sqft with a 2 car garage, and is listed for only $5k less than the LOVE house. The LOVE house is absolutely unique. I've never been in a house like it before.
Also, I think bean asked about the picture- that's the private road it's on. There are three (maybe 4) houses on that private road. No, it does not have sidewalks, but neither does our current house, and the greenbelt on the opposite side of the road is safer walking than the steep hills on our street.
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