midjd
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Post by midjd on Jan 29, 2015 16:42:54 GMT -5
swasat said: You just made my whole point. Thank you. It's less about medical necessity than about economics in many cases. That's what I've been trying to say all along. Why is it an either/or? I'm sure there are plenty of people who return to work much sooner than they (medically) should because they can't afford to take additional time off. This goes for any condition, not just pregnancy. Are you saying this is a desirable outcome? Just because someone is able to physically drag him- or herself into the office doesn't mean they should be working or that it is healthy to do so.
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Jan 29, 2015 16:45:21 GMT -5
swasat said: You just made my whole point. Thank you. It's less about medical necessity than about economics in many cases. That's what I've been trying to say all along. Why is it an either/or? I'm sure there are plenty of people who return to work much sooner than they (medically) should because they can't afford to take additional time off. This goes for any condition, not just pregnancy. Are you saying this is a desirable outcome? Hasn't she been complaining about EQUALITY the whole time? How is someone's poor planning or poor finances or whatever personal problem a reason to call it INEQUALITY.
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quince
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Post by quince on Jan 29, 2015 16:47:05 GMT -5
I can see how that would be easily abused...at least my OBs were crazy about screening for PPD. I got asked how I felt every appointment.
I had to specify and say...not thrilled. Severely sleep deprived, but I know why you're asking and I'm not depressed, just sleepy and frustrated by my boobs. Irritated, in a perfectly rational and non-medication requiring way.
They were clearly looking for "Happy, everything is great!" answers.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jan 29, 2015 16:49:35 GMT -5
FMLA (unpaid) will cover mental needs. To the best of my knowledge STD does not, at least it hasn't covered it at anyplace I've ever worked.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 29, 2015 16:52:07 GMT -5
This makes sense. If you are undergoing chemo, or something that you need a few days to recover from, have the chemo on Friday and it gives you 2 days to recover before having to be back on the job. The form you need to fill out for FMLA is very long and involved, and you need a doctor to sign off on it. I seriously doubt that those who did it were taking Mondays and/or Fridays for shits and giggles. In your example you are correct, however Sam814 gave the playbook earlier on how it can be mass abused. Everything can be mass abused. However, FMLA is not paid time so essentially these people are taking time off from work with no pay.....and should something happen where they need it for legitimate medical issues, they will be SOL. The university I worked for had a very generous vacation/sick policy. Vacation time was 5 weeks/year, plus the week between Christmas and New Years (usually with a few extra days tossed in). Sick time was 15 days/year. Sick time accrued indefinitely, but you could only keep one year of vacation time on the books. We had a worker in the lab that did the scut stuff for us. She used every day of vacation and sick time as it accrued, but there was nothing we could do about it as it was not mandatory that you get a doctor's note to be out sick. This came back and bit her in the butt when she wound up needing to take time off to get a stent placed. She wound up taking that time without pay (I think she was out over a week), but it was the last time that she took every single day off as it accrued.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Jan 29, 2015 16:53:16 GMT -5
My office doesn't ask why you are "sick" - if you are under the care of a physician then you can use your accrued sick time. They are very generous with it, which is why it's often abused. Then those of us that don't abuse it get frustrated by the ones that do. However, the abusers aren't often promoted or given certain opportunities. It doesn't go un-noticed. Why the policy isn't changed is still a question to me, but I am glad those six months are there if I need them (to bridge the gap between STD and LTD if needed, was the explanation I was given for allowing so many). It's taken me 10 years to build up to that many though.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jan 29, 2015 16:54:40 GMT -5
swasat said: You just made my whole point. Thank you. It's less about medical necessity than about economics in many cases. That's what I've been trying to say all along. No you haven't. All you have been doing is ranting over "New parents" getting the benefit of FMLA while "others" don't. Wheres anyone eligible, and I repeat, ANYONE ELIGIBLE for FMLA can take it. If they don't because "they can't afford to", then thats poor planning on THEIR part, not anyone else's fault. The example you gave in your post? You yourself said she did not take the entire FMLA because she cannot afford to. Its not because she was denied it. Her finances are HER problem and hers only. Name one place where I said only new parents get the benefit of FMLA, ONE FRIGGING PLACE. You've been taking my statements out of context this whole thread. I'll await your response. As far as the co-worker who didn't take the entire FMLA - I responded specifically to a question you asked as to why they didn't. Finally about the poor financial planning - some here have mentioned not being able to cover daycare for a newborn but I don't see you calling them out. So if it's a mental issue the finances are their problem; and their problem only - but if it's childcare then that's ok? That's the whole point I'm getting at.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 29, 2015 16:55:26 GMT -5
To the best of my knowledge STD does not, at least it hasn't covered it at anyplace I've ever worked.
Then what is the issue? If STD policies do not cover mental health problems then they don't cover mental health problems. NOBODY would be given coverage for mental health issues. So it is exactly the same for everyone.
I'm really confused. If your STD policy has an exclusion for mental health then why are you having a fit over it covering childbirth. Childbirth is a medical event and the medical community has decided you need 6-8 weeks to recover from it. I'm assuming if you have a heart attack your policy would kick in for that for the approved recovery time period as well.
Or are heart attack victims not covered? Cause then yes I would agree with you it is unfair.
What the company chooses as far as STD plans and what they cover is their decision. Clearly they've for whatever reason decided it's the plan they prefer. Why is it the employee's fault if they qualify and choose to take the coverage?
As I've stated my company doesn't offer short term disability for anybody under any circumstances.
But I am not going to bitch about how it's unfair other ladies on WIR got coverage and I didn't. My employer doesn't think the benefit is worth it to make it available. If I want it I either need my own or need to find another employer that offers it.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jan 29, 2015 17:02:28 GMT -5
not true....lots of people use it for chemo, parent care, etc. and prefer to use FMLA without burning their vacation days or they could be out of PTO at that point. Ok. Maybe. Not in my experience, but I am no expert so I will accept that I might be wrong. At all my employers FMLA has to be documented though. You cannot just call and say you are taking FMLA for that particular day. It needs to be filed and approved. Other employers might implement it differently. Once you have FMLA approved, you can take your 12 weeks as needed through the next year. I took 6 weeks after each kid was born & then spread out the rest of the time over the next 3-6 months. So if you have a sick parent, sick kid, need weekly medical treatments, then you are allowed days here & there as needed. It does not need to be in one chunk of time.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 29, 2015 17:02:53 GMT -5
The university I worked for had a very generous vacation/sick policyOurs does too. I also get floating holidays. I get yelled at every year because I keep reaching the cap for FHs. But if I take one they yell at me because you're not supposed to use them unless you run out of sick/vacation. At this point I don't think it's even possible for me to run out of either, it just keeps accumulating. I came back to a positive sick leave balance after being gone for 6 weeks on maternity leave. I get 0.3 hours every week. HR drives me batty. I can see being really sick and burning thru all that time or caring for a loved one. Otherwise what the heck are you doing that you get to where all you have left are floating holidays?
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Jan 29, 2015 17:03:52 GMT -5
From your post#56: From post# 65: From post # 80: All of that is SOOOO gender and status neutral
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jan 29, 2015 17:03:58 GMT -5
On the other hand, child care tax credits and dependents deduction are harder for me to swallow since those are the result of choices you (generic you) make (having a child). And while I agree with the statement made several times here that nobody has children for the tax credits, I also don't believe that I should pay for the cost of raising your child. So if $25k in childcare only results in a tax credit of $1.8k I (the collective I) am in effect payin $1.8k and you are paying $23.2k for your child. It's like court-ordered child support paid by non-parents Do you equally hate all other deductions & credits? Savers Credit? Student Loan interest deduction? Mortgage Deduction? Charity Deductions?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 17:08:09 GMT -5
Yeah I'm quoting ehow here on FMLA and STD for mental issues. Clinical Depression Qualifies Ron Leopold, national director of MetLife Disability, said 6 percent of short-term disability claims are related to psychiatric disorders, and half of those are because of clinical depression. Clinical depression qualifies as a disability because it is not simply melancholy -- it is a doctor-diagnosed disorder that greatly affects worker productivity. www.ehow.com/info_7872708_clinical-depression-qualify-shortterm-disability.html#page=1
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jan 29, 2015 17:09:30 GMT -5
swasat said: You just made my whole point. Thank you. It's less about medical necessity than about economics in many cases. That's what I've been trying to say all along. Why is it an either/or? I'm sure there are plenty of people who return to work much sooner than they (medically) should because they can't afford to take additional time off. This goes for any condition, not just pregnancy. Are you saying this is a desirable outcome? Just because someone is able to physically drag him- or herself into the office doesn't mean they should be working or that it is healthy to do so. Ok, let my try this again. 1. In a normal delivery, does it take the majority of women 6 weeks to return to a point where they can safely physically perform a desk job, yes or no? If yes - then how do they manage to care for a newborn and small children at home during those 6 weeks? I would find that more demanding than a desk job. Like I said early in this thread anyone who would disagree with me I'd have to call a liar. If no - then go to question #2 ( If you're not physically ready to return to work then your doctor can, and should, certify you to take more time.) 2. If you are able to return to work earlier then why take the full 6 weeks? 1. I'm mentally stressed from not getting enough sleep 2. I'm having issues with depression and need time to work it out 3. I need time to bond with my baby 4. Something I've missed?
3. If a woman is able to take (and I'm talking PAID time here folks under STD, FMLA covers everyone for unpaid) time off to deal with issues that are not of a purely physically medical nature, then why shouldn't that benefit be available to everyone?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jan 29, 2015 17:12:04 GMT -5
From your post#56: From post# 65: From post # 80: All of that is SOOOO gender and status neutral And.....? you've taken quotes but nowhere do I say only new parents get FMLA. I'm still waiting on the quote.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 29, 2015 17:15:07 GMT -5
My office doesn't ask why you are "sick" - if you are under the care of a physician then you can use your accrued sick time. They are very generous with it, which is why it's often abused. Then those of us that don't abuse it get frustrated by the ones that do. However, the abusers aren't often promoted or given certain opportunities. It doesn't go un-noticed. Why the policy isn't changed is still a question to me, but I am glad those six months are there if I need them (to bridge the gap between STD and LTD if needed, was the explanation I was given for allowing so many). It's taken me 10 years to build up to that many though. I didn't abuse it, and the hours I accrued were very much appreciated as I pretty much had a paycheck until LTD kicked in (no STD). However, I had a job that had unlimited sick and vacation time for about 5 years when I first got out of school. No one abused the sick time and vacation time was taken as wanted and not used excessively either.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 29, 2015 17:15:20 GMT -5
I'm so confused, is STD what you get when you are screwed on your job when someone takes leave under the FMLA?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jan 29, 2015 17:15:22 GMT -5
Why is it an either/or? I'm sure there are plenty of people who return to work much sooner than they (medically) should because they can't afford to take additional time off. This goes for any condition, not just pregnancy. Are you saying this is a desirable outcome? Just because someone is able to physically drag him- or herself into the office doesn't mean they should be working or that it is healthy to do so. Ok, let my try this again. 1. In a normal delivery, does it take the majority of women 6 weeks to return to a point where they can safely physically perform a desk job, yes or no? If yes - then how do they manage to care for a newborn and small children at home during those 6 weeks? I would find that more demanding than a desk job. Like I said early in this thread anyone who would disagree with me I'd have to call a liar. I disagree. In my case, the older kids kept getting sent to daycare and/or school. Then I slept all day as the baby slept. Trying to sit at a desk all day when sleep deprived vs. napping & feeding an infant - I find the infant far less demanding.
I agree that keeping all the kids at home would be harder, but then why the heck would I opt to do that if all school/daycare arrangements are already in place & I need to pay for them either way?
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 29, 2015 17:18:36 GMT -5
I'm so confused, is STD what you get when you are screwed on your job when someone takes leave under the FMLA? An STD is usually related to some kind of screwing....
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jan 29, 2015 17:20:27 GMT -5
Why is it an either/or? I'm sure there are plenty of people who return to work much sooner than they (medically) should because they can't afford to take additional time off. This goes for any condition, not just pregnancy. Are you saying this is a desirable outcome? Just because someone is able to physically drag him- or herself into the office doesn't mean they should be working or that it is healthy to do so. Ok, let my try this again. 1. In a normal delivery, does it take the majority of women 6 weeks to return to a point where they can safely physically perform a desk job, yes or no? If yes - then how do they manage to care for a newborn and small children at home during those 6 weeks? I would find that more demanding than a desk job. Like I said early in this thread anyone who would disagree with me I'd have to call a liar. If no - then go to question #2 ( If you're not physically ready to return to work then your doctor can, and should, certify you to take more time.) 2. If you are able to return to work earlier then why take the full 6 weeks? 1. I'm mentally stressed from not getting enough sleep 2. I'm having issues with depression and need time to work it out 3. I need time to bond with my baby 4. Something I've missed?
3. If a woman is able to take (and I'm talking PAID time here folks under STD, FMLA covers everyone for unpaid) time off to deal with issues that are not of a purely physically medical nature, then why shouldn't that benefit be available to everyone? 1) I can't speak to how long it takes "most" women to recover from childbirth. I'm not a doctor and as far as I know, neither are you. If a doctor says six weeks for a vaginal delivery and eight weeks for a C-section, I will trust their judgment. 2) A desk job is likely not as physically demanding as caring for a newborn. I'm pretty sure physical difficulty is not the primary concern. When you haven't had more than two hours of sleep at a time for the last month, driving to work may be a concern. If your job has a lot of responsibility and requires you to make difficult or complex decisions, you may make a costly mistake if you return to work while still in the throes of sleep deprivation and hormonal imbalances. Newborns on the other hand don't require much thought. And for the thousandth time, this is not a gender or a pregnancy issue. Using DH as an example again, his doctor told him he could return to work after three weeks. He felt pretty okay after two, but decided to take the full three weeks because that was what the doctor recommended. Equality!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 17:45:53 GMT -5
Wait. Are you advocating even less leave than women get now?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jan 29, 2015 18:03:04 GMT -5
opedNo, what I'm saying is the leave given is not always for purely physical healing medical reasons. Both midjd and Angel! have acknowledged as much if I understand their posts. For example - you can be just as sleep deprived and stressed worrying about a kid on suicide watch as you are caring for a newborn. What I'm asking is why does one category get paid leave for (under STD) reasons that are more than purely physical healing (which happened to be maternity leave) but not another category (such as mental health issues) or dealing with family crisis. I'm not necessarily advocating making it an employer expense (see my post about national payroll tax) but I think there is inequality here. I pushed that question even father when I mentioned guys asking for paternity leave (which is paid leave, not unpaid under FMLA). Why do those who have children feel that should get extra benefits for doing so (I also originally mentioned tax credits) where is the fairness to those who don't have children - take it a step farther - what if they can't have kids and it's not just a lifestyle choice? That's just a slap in the fact twice over. Instead of tying it to a specific event (having a child) I suggesting creating a leave bank that could be taken for any reason. That would, to me at least, seem to be fairer to all.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jan 29, 2015 18:09:12 GMT -5
opedNo, what I'm saying is the leave given is not always for purely physical healing medical reasons. Both midjd and Angel! have acknowledged as much if I understand their posts. For example - you can be just as sleep deprived and stressed worrying about a kid on suicide watch as you are caring for a newborn. What I'm asking is why does one category get paid leave for (under STD) reasons that are more than purely physical healing (which happened to be maternity leave) but not another category (such as mental health issues) or dealing with family crisis. I'm not necessarily advocating making it an employer expense (see my post about national payroll tax) but I think there is inequality here. I pushed that question even father when I mentioned guys asking for paternity leave (which is paid leave, not unpaid under FMLA). Why do those who have children feel that should get extra benefits for doing so (I also originally mentioned tax credits) where is the fairness to those who don't have children - take it a step farther - what if they can't have kids and it's not just a lifestyle choice? That's just a slap in the fact twice over. Instead of tying it to a specific event (having a child) I suggesting creating a leave bank that could be taken for any reason. That would, to me at least, seem to be fairer to all.
You still get FMLA for adoption. You just don't get STD because there is no physical recovery.
It appears you are just upset over STD, which are private policies purchased by either employers or individuals. IMO, this is like getting upset about people who purchase whole life or something else you don't approve of. Why are you so upset over someone choosing to purchase insurance that works a certain why & pissed about how it works?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 18:11:47 GMT -5
We didn't have STD. At least not that I knew of... Wasn't the most savvy when I had kids.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jan 29, 2015 18:22:07 GMT -5
opedNo, what I'm saying is the leave given is not always for purely physical healing medical reasons. Both midjd and Angel! have acknowledged as much if I understand their posts. For example - you can be just as sleep deprived and stressed worrying about a kid on suicide watch as you are caring for a newborn. What I'm asking is why does one category get paid leave for (under STD) reasons that are more than purely physical healing (which happened to be maternity leave) but not another category (such as mental health issues) or dealing with family crisis. I'm not necessarily advocating making it an employer expense (see my post about national payroll tax) but I think there is inequality here. I pushed that question even father when I mentioned guys asking for paternity leave (which is paid leave, not unpaid under FMLA). Why do those who have children feel that should get extra benefits for doing so (I also originally mentioned tax credits) where is the fairness to those who don't have children - take it a step farther - what if they can't have kids and it's not just a lifestyle choice? That's just a slap in the fact twice over. Instead of tying it to a specific event (having a child) I suggesting creating a leave bank that could be taken for any reason. That would, to me at least, seem to be fairer to all.
You still get FMLA for adoption. You just don't get STD because there is no physical recovery.
It appears you are just upset over STD, which are private policies purchased by either employers or individuals. IMO, this is like getting upset about people who purchase whole life or something else you don't approve of. Why are you so upset over someone choosing to purchase insurance that works a certain why & pissed about how it works?
BINGO! Why does STD cover some non physical recovery issues but not others!!! That is where I see the inequality. AND did you know some companies offer paid leave for adoption? www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CCUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iwpr.org%2Fpublications%2Fpubs%2Fmaternity-paternity-and-adoption-leave-in-the-united-states-1%2Fat_download%2Ffile&ei=fr_KVMrIFcW1ggS2w4PYBg&usg=AFQjCNFhOxEtONxhDSTTxK1Ykl7AGqwN7wAccording to table two in this article 75-80% of the top 100 companies offer paid adoption or paternity leave of some form. Yet there is no mention of any type of mental health or other family crisis paid leave. Note a majority of the companies don't offer this benefit, but I'm just pointing out something that is geared to benefit only one specific demographic.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jan 29, 2015 18:35:36 GMT -5
You are the only one saying it isn't a physical recovery. I said I'm sure it varies woman to woman & I'm sure some need the 6 weeks. It is easier to just have a blanket policy for this.
I just don't understand getting upset over a private insurance. If you don't like it, don't buy it or find one that meets your needs.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jan 29, 2015 19:37:03 GMT -5
Again, who is judging here? How can we say Sally lied about needing the 6 weeks. We don't know what it was like for her. Do you think Sally lied about needing the epi too? How can someone outside the situation "know" how much physical pain the other person is in? Again, if you think the doctors are such quacks, petition to get this changed.
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 29, 2015 19:43:53 GMT -5
Again, who is judging here? How can we say Sally lied about needing the 6 weeks. We don't know what it was like for her. Do you think Sally lied about needing the epi too? How can someone outside the situation "know" how much physical pain the other person is in? Again, if you think the doctors are such quacks, petition to get this changed. Sally is a if she needed an epi!
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 29, 2015 19:49:58 GMT -5
I'm having surgery next week. I'm completely burned out from working insane hours for the last several months. My doctor told me I need to be out 2 1/2 weeks and gave me a letter stating this.
I'm a tough person and have powered through many illnesses to meet deadlines. In this case, I'm taking the full amount of recovery time. IKnowing me, I could go back early but Im not. I plan to use this time to recharge before I get so fed up that I pull a dark. The surgery came out a convenient time!
And no, I don't feel guilty for being out.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jan 29, 2015 19:51:20 GMT -5
I'm having surgery next week. I'm completely burned out from working insane hours for the last several months. My doctor told me I need to be out 2 1/2 weeks and gave me a letter stating this. I'm a tough person and have powered through many illnesses to meet deadlines. In this case, I'm taking the full amount of recovery time. IKnowing me, I could go back early but Im not. I plan to use this time to recharge before I get so fed up that I pull a dark. The surgery came out a convenient time! And no, I don't feel guilty for being out. Did you slip the Dr. $100?
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