yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jan 29, 2015 13:38:55 GMT -5
So someone who is calling for policies to be fairly and equally applied are "haters" Really? And somehow this conversation has gotten off track. FMLA covers unpaid leave for family reasons for EVERYONE. STD for a medical leave does apply equally as well for medical events, but I've pointed out that in many cases there is no PHYSICAL reason you can't return to a desk job in less than 6 weeks. That is where I see the inequity. So let me state this clearly (if I haven't before) FMLA (unpaid) leave is somewhat fair because you can use it for any reason. Paid STD beyond what is needed for physical necessity is where I see some unfairness. Peeps can get pissed at me all they want but several folks here admitted they were physically capable of returning to work in less than 6 weeks after birth. The fact that you get more than what is needed for a physical recovery some have admitted was for bonding as well as daycare issues - guess what - that's not medical and non medical reasons are not available to get paid leave (STD) for non-mothers. That is what I'm calling out as inequitable. We have a co-worker who's kid tried to commit suicide. They have to come to work because they need a paycheck, but emotionally they're having a hard time dealing with it (yes they've taken some FMLA). What makes their situation different from the new mom who's an emotional wreck but fine physically? Change the relative involved above from a child to a spouse and call the person childless - why are they less worthy of a benefit that is available for mental well being/bonding only to a select demographic? Ok, so what if someone (a MAN!) breaks a leg and the Dr. says 2 weeks STD but the person feels fine to go to work after 1 week. Are you policing them too if they take the full 2 weeks?
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Jan 29, 2015 13:40:26 GMT -5
Hubs and I are child-free for life Are you sure?? The world needs more hipsters. Ha!
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Jan 29, 2015 13:42:42 GMT -5
So someone who is calling for policies to be fairly and equally applied are "haters" Really? And somehow this conversation has gotten off track. FMLA covers unpaid leave for family reasons for EVERYONE. STD for a medical leave does apply equally as well for medical events, but I've pointed out that in many cases there is no PHYSICAL reason you can't return to a desk job in less than 6 weeks. That is where I see the inequity. So let me state this clearly (if I haven't before) FMLA (unpaid) leave is somewhat fair because you can use it for any reason. Paid STD beyond what is needed for physical necessity is where I see some unfairness. Peeps can get pissed at me all they want but several folks here admitted they were physically capable of returning to work in less than 6 weeks after birth. The fact that you get more than what is needed for a physical recovery some have admitted was for bonding as well as daycare issues - guess what - that's not medical and non medical reasons are not available to get paid leave (STD) for non-mothers. That is what I'm calling out as inequitable. We have a co-worker who's kid tried to commit suicide. They have to come to work because they need a paycheck, but emotionally they're having a hard time dealing with it (yes they've taken some FMLA).
What makes their situation different from the new mom who's an emotional wreck but fine physically? Change the relative involved above from a child to a spouse and call the person childless - why are they less worthy of a benefit that is available for mental well being/bonding only to a select demographic?Why SOME FMLA? Why not all of it? And who said that those people are not worthy of benefit? My Indian employee is single with no kids. He is getting the benefit. So do older people who have to go for surgeries and take STD. So do new fathers who become parents. So do some unmarried , childless folks who take a sabbatical from work. Seems to me its your company that is the peoblem, if they are ONLY giving the benefit to new parents. Not the world as a whole.
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Jan 29, 2015 13:45:52 GMT -5
So someone who is calling for policies to be fairly and equally applied are "haters" Really? And somehow this conversation has gotten off track. FMLA covers unpaid leave for family reasons for EVERYONE. STD for a medical leave does apply equally as well for medical events, but I've pointed out that in many cases there is no PHYSICAL reason you can't return to a desk job in less than 6 weeks. That is where I see the inequity. So let me state this clearly (if I haven't before) FMLA (unpaid) leave is somewhat fair because you can use it for any reason. Paid STD beyond what is needed for physical necessity is where I see some unfairness. Peeps can get pissed at me all they want but several folks here admitted they were physically capable of returning to work in less than 6 weeks after birth. The fact that you get more than what is needed for a physical recovery some have admitted was for bonding as well as daycare issues - guess what - that's not medical and non medical reasons are not available to get paid leave (STD) for non-mothers. That is what I'm calling out as inequitable. We have a co-worker who's kid tried to commit suicide. They have to come to work because they need a paycheck, but emotionally they're having a hard time dealing with it (yes they've taken some FMLA). What makes their situation different from the new mom who's an emotional wreck but fine physically? Change the relative involved above from a child to a spouse and call the person childless - why are they less worthy of a benefit that is available for mental well being/bonding only to a select demographic? Ok, so what if someone (a MAN!) breaks a leg and the Dr. says 2 weeks STD but the person feels fine to go to work after 1 week. Are you policing them too if they take the full 2 weeks? Along the same lines who or what defines FINE ? Your definition of "fine" maybe vastly different from my definition of "fine". Are we to set up a government committee that polices who is "fine" enough to get back to work? Some policies are made to be "general" because there is no size that fits all. Medical leave is one such category.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jan 29, 2015 13:47:20 GMT -5
I believe the soup Nazi should decide who is "fine"
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 29, 2015 13:49:49 GMT -5
Are we to set up a government committee that polices who is "fine" enough to get back to work
Sounds great. I also think they should get to determine if your issue was a "lifestyle choice".
Like if you ate unhealthy and had a heart attack you don't get leave because it's a result of your "lifestyle choices" that I didn't choose to make so why should you get approved for any kind of leave to treat your issue? I should be able to get equal time off for having made a smarter choice.
HR goes by medical standards, not what their employees decide is a suitable amount of time to be off work. According to the medical community it's 6 weeks for vaginal birth, 8 weeks for C-section.
If you don't like it you're going to need to convince the medical community there is no reason to set that standard. Otherwise good luck getting HR to agree to let all women come back to work whenever they decide it's cool to do so or co-workers have decided it's been enough.
HR isn't going to risk the company getting it's pants sued off because some employees don't feel policies regarding STD pay and FMLA are "fair".
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jan 29, 2015 13:51:10 GMT -5
So instead of complaining about women who had the nerve to receive medical benefits after they felt physically capable of returning to work, maybe you should direct your complaints to the insurance companies and physicians who have decided that 6-8 weeks is the standard time needed for physical recovery after childbirth.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jan 29, 2015 13:53:24 GMT -5
So instead of complaining about women who had the nerve to receive medical benefits after they felt physically capable of returning to work, maybe you should direct your complaints to the insurance companies and physicians who have decided that 6-8 weeks is the standard time needed for physical recovery after childbirth. Umm hello .. I already suggested that it was ignored.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 29, 2015 14:02:05 GMT -5
Maybe if we keep quoting it someone will listen
Doubtful.
I had a long talk with my doctor about it after a similar thread. She said you're not going to get a doctor to sign off on you going back to work earlier than 6 weeks unless there are some pretty heavy extenuating circumstances.
6 weeks is considered the "minimum" recovery time, they can get in trouble if they cannot provide an EXTREMELY good reason for signing off on you going back to work before the minimum recovery time.
A doctor isn't going to risk his/her job just because you think you're fine to go to work or somebody else has decided you've taken enough leave.
I could understand the ruckus if I had the ability to walk back into work on my own before 6 weeks and chose not to. That's not reality though. I'd need my doctor, my boss and the entire HR department of UNMC to sign off on it. That's not going to happen, but I am the bad guy?
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Jan 29, 2015 14:04:15 GMT -5
I don't understand why people expect that a person's PRIMARY loyalty in life should be towards their employer. I really cannot fathom why. I am very loyal to my employer, BUT my PRIMARY loyalty and responsibility is towards my own family. Period. If I am given benefits from my employer that makes my personal life easier I would be a fool to not take it. If I was officially allowed to take upto 12 weeks off after delivery, with ensured job security, why in God's name would I go back earlier even if I was feeling well? And a lot of that time is unpaid. So its not like the company is doing you charity. Plus the company gives me the benefit knowing FULLY WELL what they are doing. All the employees of the company are free to ask for time off. Barring medical leave, it can be approved or denied. But guess what, thats true for any employee male or female.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 14:06:39 GMT -5
On another note FMLA when I was a supervisor was known as the "Friday/Monday Leave Act" among the management team. It seemed folks that could use it on different days rather than consecutively always seemed to get a lot of long weekends out of it.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 29, 2015 14:14:27 GMT -5
Barring medical leave, it can be approved or denied. But guess what, thats true for any employee male or female. Neither myself or Dh have worked for a company that won't allow single/childless people to take time off and only grant approval for people with kids. If we have PTO it is ours to use as we please as long as we follow company policy. Our supervisors are free to approve or deny it as they see fit. If you're working for a company who expects you to be a slave because you're childless then IMO that is company problem. If it's not company policy then it's a problem with your supervisor/manage and if you truly feel it's unfair then take up the fact your supervisor is violating company policy with HR. I don't understand sitting around bitching behind people's backs and making working parents out to be the downfall of Western civilization. Get up and do something about it.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jan 29, 2015 14:21:39 GMT -5
On another note FMLA when I was a supervisor was known as the "Friday/Monday Leave Act" among the management team. It seemed folks that could use it on different days rather than consecutively always seemed to get a lot of long weekends out of it. My company has to approve the use of FMLA, you need to provide documentation, in my case a signed note from the Dr. stating my due date etc. You can't just take FMLA willy nilly.
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Jan 29, 2015 14:25:23 GMT -5
On another note FMLA when I was a supervisor was known as the "Friday/Monday Leave Act" among the management team. It seemed folks that could use it on different days rather than consecutively always seemed to get a lot of long weekends out of it. My company has to approve the use of FMLA, you need to provide documentation, in my case a signed note from the Dr. stating my due date etc. You can't just take FMLA willy nilly. Looks to me all the grievances against FMLA being aired here are company related problems. Company and their implementation of FMLA problems. Not FMLA problems per se. In my entire work career I have not worked anywhere that took FMLA so lightly. FMLA leave also needs to be in "chunks". Not a day here, a day there. A day here or there is covered by vacation and PTO policy, NOT FMLA.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 29, 2015 14:30:48 GMT -5
FMLA leave also needs to be in "chunks". Not a day here, a day there. A day here or there is covered by vacation and PTO policy, NOT FMLA.
Not entirely true. My dad filed and was protected while taking care of my grandfather. He had to have documentation though showing he was out because he was taking my grandfather to doctor appointments.
FMLA protects your job, how it's approved to be implemented is up to the individual employer. Some require you to use it in chunks, some will allow it to be used intermittently.
What is important is it doesn't add up to more than 12 weeks total.
If people are using it to take long weekends then either they have no clue how FMLA works and assumes they're covered or an employer is allowing abuse of the policy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 14:30:57 GMT -5
On another note FMLA when I was a supervisor was known as the "Friday/Monday Leave Act" among the management team. It seemed folks that could use it on different days rather than consecutively always seemed to get a lot of long weekends out of it. My company has to approve the use of FMLA, you need to provide documentation, in my case a signed note from the Dr. stating my due date etc. You can't just take FMLA willy nilly. Same here, but there definitely are cases where people can take advantage within the approvals and rules.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 29, 2015 14:34:43 GMT -5
but there definitely are cases where people can take advantage within the approvals and rules.
That's an employer issue then. No where in the regulations does it say that an employer has to just give an employee whatever they want. A supervisor is allowed to petition if they can prove that the person is abusing it or that it creates a significant barrier to getting work done.
I'm figuring it's not an easy process, but it CAN be done.
It's not abusing it if I am taking the approved minimum recovery time off and being covered under FMLA. Just because a coworker or random person thinks I don't "need" it doesn't mean I am abusing it. I am following the rules and well within my rights.
If an employer is looking the other way when it comes to abuse that's an employer issue. Yes we all know the employee should be a model of virtue and not exploit the loophole because that is what a good YMer would do.
BUT most people in the world are not YM-ers. You set the system up for abuse, people are going to take advantage of it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 14:34:57 GMT -5
It can definitely be used on an intermittent basis: he FMLA permits employees to take leave on an intermittent basis or to work a reduced schedule under certain circumstances. CFR Section 203) www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/1421.htm
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jan 29, 2015 14:35:16 GMT -5
My company has to approve the use of FMLA, you need to provide documentation, in my case a signed note from the Dr. stating my due date etc. You can't just take FMLA willy nilly. Same here, but there definitely are cases where people can take advantage within the approvals and rules. Ok, so I'll just make up an example. Worker is helping their elderly parent every Friday and Monday so they get a long weekend. Parent has a nurse the other 3 days. Why was it approved if it wasn't legit?
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jan 29, 2015 14:36:29 GMT -5
Where I work, employees can bank unused sick, vacation, and personal time into a personal emergency bank (35 hours) and disability bank (unlimited). If someone needs time off for whatever physical or mental need they can use that bank to get paid out full salary. I know my pregnant coworkers use any time they have toward maternity leave before STD (if needed) kicks in. Many of my male coworkers also use whatever time they have for paternity leave. I'm hardly ever sick so I bank roughly eight sick days a year and I currently have 38 days in my disability bank. It's nice to have but I'm glad I haven't had a need to use it. Hubs and I are child-free for life and I really don't give a shit how much time my coworkers take off for maternity/paternity leave. I don't feel slighted in the least. We have plenty of benefits offered that I am currently not using and may never use. I've left work early to get my hair done. Maybe the breeders should get all pissy with me because I leave work for things that are cooler than kid stuff. :-p Cookies, sounds like your employer has done a great job of establishing a paid time off program that is equitable to all employees. Kudos to them! Now, if we could just get the more entrenched employers to adopt more enlightened and equitable policies, life would be better.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 14:37:07 GMT -5
My company has to approve the use of FMLA, you need to provide documentation, in my case a signed note from the Dr. stating my due date etc. You can't just take FMLA willy nilly. Looks to me all the grievances against FMLA being aired here are company related problems. Company and their implementation of FMLA problems. Not FMLA problems per se. In my entire work career I have not worked anywhere that took FMLA so lightly. FMLA leave also needs to be in "chunks". Not a day here, a day there. A day here or there is covered by vacation and PTO policy, NOT FMLA.not true....lots of people use it for chemo, parent care, etc. and prefer to use FMLA without burning their vacation days or they could be out of PTO at that point.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 14:38:44 GMT -5
Same here, but there definitely are cases where people can take advantage within the approvals and rules. Ok, so I'll just make up an example. Worker is helping their elderly parent every Friday and Monday so they get a long weekend. Parent has a nurse the other 3 days. Why was it approved if it wasn't legit? Not saying some weren't legit, just saying it happened a lot more than seemed reasonable. No company or supervisor is going to challenge it because it isn't worth the time to build a case and could be a PR nightmare.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 14:45:21 GMT -5
And I had an ex who would dr shop to get all kinds of pills, go to enough and eventually someone will prescribe it, I think it's the same with Dr notes for those that try hard enough. No company is going to fight a Dr's note.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 14:48:30 GMT -5
I took FMLA when DS2 was 10 months old and didn't need any 'proof' - I just said I was taking it to care for a child under a year old. I had taken 12 weeks with him after he was born (september) so was entitled to another 12 weeks in a new calendar year.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 29, 2015 14:49:07 GMT -5
No company or supervisor is going to challenge it because it isn't worth the time to build a case and could be a PR nightmare.
Then that's their choice/problem. Like I said we can all cluck that as good responsible YM posters people shouldn't do that, but we're the exception.
Don't fault the employee for using what they are legally entitled to. You may not think it is reasonable but that's not your call.
I had a coworker who disappeared all the freaking time. She'd come in late, she'd leave early. If called out on it she'd say something about her children.
It was irritating, but she was entitled to use her leave as pleased. She wasn't violating any company policy by behaving as she did. I had no ground to stand on no matter how badly it pissed me off.
My hands were tied. The only person who could have called her out was my boss and since he didn't do it I kept my mouth shut.
Sucks but that sometimes comes along with working for "the man".
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justme
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Post by justme on Jan 29, 2015 14:53:31 GMT -5
I think what you're missing is that most doctors won't clear someone to go back to work before 6 weeks and if you're out on STD you can't come back without a doctor's okIf you're on FMLA you can't come back without a doctor's clearance either. Most doctors WILL NOT clear you to go back to work in 2 weeks. And no I cannot doctor shop till I find on that will, HR required it be the same doctor/clinic who originally signed off on my paperwork. Then I would have had to petition HR and present a case that I was fine to come back and no I won't sue you. Which I can't prove so good luck getting the petition approved. HR would have shit kittens if I had tried to come back before 6-8 weeks. They wouldn't even allow me to so much as email my boss while I was on leave for fear I would sue for some reason or another. Both me AND my boss would have lost our jobs if I had snuck back in before at least 6 weeks. I don't think you're understanding. I wasn't out for 6 weeks for poops and giggles. I was out that long because that is what the medical community and company HRs have set as the standard time you need to be out in order to be considered medically fit to return to work. but how does that work if you're using FMLA to take aging parents to appointments? you don't need to be cleared to go back to work. I don't think work had me do FMLA for my two weeks out for surgery covered by STD, but I remember seeing it because it was on the same page. I had to say whether it was for myself or family member. And whether I was using it as a chunk or piecemeal. My STD policy required a Dr note to return to part or full time work.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 14:58:28 GMT -5
No company or supervisor is going to challenge it because it isn't worth the time to build a case and could be a PR nightmare.Then that's their choice/problem. Like I said we can all cluck that as good responsible YM posters people shouldn't do that, but we're the exception. Don't fault the employee for using what they are legally entitled to. You may not think it is reasonable but that's not your call. I had a coworker who disappeared all the freaking time. She'd come in late, she'd leave early. If called out on it she'd say something about her children. It was irritating, but she was entitled to use her leave as pleased. She wasn't violating any company policy by behaving as she did. I had no ground to stand on no matter how badly it pissed me off. My hands were tied. The only person who could have called her out was my boss and since he didn't do it I kept my mouth shut. Sucks but that sometimes comes along with working for "the man". I wish I could list some of the ridiculous reasons that got approved but I don't want to come close to running afoul of privacy laws, that means no listing people, company, specific reasons or details.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 29, 2015 15:03:48 GMT -5
I wish I could list some of the ridiculous reasons that got approved
I never said there weren't ridiculous reasons. I said that if the employer approved it then it's "legit". Once protection has been granted the employee has every right to use their 12 weeks as approved.
Doesn't matter what you think. You don't have a leg to stand on because from an HR stand point everything on the up and up.
It's not an employee problem by that point, it's a COMPANY problem.
If I was "smart" I'd figure out a way to take advantage too.
Unfortunately that's not in my nature. So unless I am going to never work with another living soul again I have to learn to stomach a certain amount of BS being hurled my way. I don't have time to become the FMLA/disability/PTO police, especially when it's a useless endeavor.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Jan 29, 2015 15:25:07 GMT -5
It was well known around here that a certain Dr would write you FMLA for "mental stress leave" for a cash payment of $100. It could be taken intermittently. There were plenty of people that used every last day of those 12 weeks on top of their vacation, meaning they could be out for up to 16 of the 52 weeks in a year!!! The medical forms were filled out properly and there's not much HR can do to challenge that side of it. However, they can start to nit-pick and make sure everyone is following the rules when they do show up. Which in turn made that department really stressful to work for, hence more people going to get stress leave. You can guess where that spiral led. It's been 8 years since I worked in that department and they are still dealing with it.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jan 29, 2015 15:26:40 GMT -5
Apparently I'm so naïve that I don't even think about that kind of manipulation.
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