NYPD, Arrests Drop by 66% Because Of Police Work Stoppage.

[Shooby]

But, oh well they didn't MEAN to kill him so no biggie, I guess.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2015 9:14:22 GMT -5 Shooby said:

He asphyxiated. He died from lack of oxygen. So, yeah.

He died from positional asphyxiation. There is a difference.

So, yeah. 

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2015 9:14:58 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Let's put the blame where it belongs here.

It does not belong on the police.

1. The Federal and state governments have to stop passing stupid laws they expect AND DEMAND the police to enforce.

Same for city councils.

2. As a civilian it is your duty not to break the law. 

Especially when you know what the law is, and you continue to do it, time after time.

This I agree with. Place the blame on what started the ball rolling in the first place.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2015 11:41:06 GMT -5 Shooby said:

He DIED of asphyxiation.  Duh.

He DIED of positional asphyxiation. Duh.

[EVT1]

Jan 3, 2015 18:59:03 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 3, 2015 11:41:06 GMT -5 Shooby said:

He DIED of asphyxiation.  Duh.

He DIED of positional asphyxiation. Duh.

Yep- his neck being in the position of being clamped between the meathooks of an NYPD officer.

[djAdvocate]

Jan 3, 2015 18:55:58 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 3, 2015 9:14:22 GMT -5 Shooby said:

He asphyxiated. He died from lack of oxygen. So, yeah.

He died from positional asphyxiation. There is a difference.

So, yeah. 

just to be clear, from a fault perspective, it doesn't matter how he died, so long as it was not "natural causes".  i think you already agreed with that.

[djAdvocate]

Jan 3, 2015 18:57:28 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 3, 2015 9:14:58 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Let's put the blame where it belongs here.

It does not belong on the police.

1. The Federal and state governments have to stop passing stupid laws they expect AND DEMAND the police to enforce.

Same for city councils.

2. As a civilian it is your duty not to break the law. 

Especially when you know what the law is, and you continue to do it, time after time.

This I agree with. Place the blame on what started the ball rolling in the first place.

huh?  what stupid law was passed?  the law that says you can't strangle a guy to death for selling cigarettes?

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2015 20:30:31 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Jan 3, 2015 18:59:03 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

He DIED of positional asphyxiation. Duh.

Yep- his neck being in the position of being clamped between the meathooks of an NYPD officer.

Apparently some don't know what positional asphyxiation is...

Research has suggested that restraining a person in a face down position is likely to cause greater restriction of breathing than restraining a person face up.[2] Multiple cases have been associated with the hogtie or hobble prone restraint position.[3][4] Many law enforcement and health personnel are now taught to avoid restraining people face down or to do so only for a very short period of time.[1]

Risk factors which may increase the chance of death include obesity, prior cardiac or respiratory problems, and the use of illicit drugs such as cocaine.[5] [5] Other issues in the way the subject is restrained can also increase the risk of death, for example kneeling or otherwise placing weight on the subject and particularly any type of restraint hold around the subject's neck. Research measuring the effect of restraint positions on lung function suggests that restraint which involves bending the restrained person or placing body weight on them, has more effect on their breathing than face down positioning alone.[6]


source (yeah, it's Wikipedia, but in this case, the answer is correct... feel free to double check it elsewhere)

Notice how it's not all about the neck... it does mention it CAN be a factor... but it's not in this case, because he could still breathe AFTER the arm was taken away from the neck. Breathing assistance was not required after the arm was removed because he was breathing AFTER the arm was removed. There's a recording including that very statement the guy taking the video asks "why isn't he getting CPR?" one cop answers "it's not needed, he's breathing and has a pulse". Forget that little inconvenient fact though... it doesn't fit with your agenda.

When EMS arrives, they dont' put him on Oxygen either... why not? Because he's breathing. forget that little tid-bit too... it doesn't fit your agenda either.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2015 22:40:21 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jan 3, 2015 18:55:58 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

He died from positional asphyxiation. There is a difference.

So, yeah. 

just to be clear, from a fault perspective, it doesn't matter how he died, so long as it was not "natural causes".  i think you already agreed with that.

I do agree with that. It wasn't "natural causes". Where our assessments of cause diverge however, begins there.

[mmhmm]

Babble, babble, prate and gabble. Good grief!

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2015 22:41:34 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jan 3, 2015 18:57:28 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

This I agree with. Place the blame on what started the ball rolling in the first place.

huh?  what stupid law was passed?  the law that says you can't strangle a guy to death for selling cigarettes?

I think you meant to quote someone else... However, to answer your question.

It was a statement of a requirement to enforce stupid laws (like taxes on cigarettes), in a general sense... not any one in particular. FOLLOWED BY something you apparently missed... people should obey the laws until/unless they are changed/removed. even if they ARE stupid.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jan 2, 2015 21:39:08 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

This is old crap- it was a choke as a choke refers to either air or blood- i.e. vascular restraint counts.  He died of it.  Medical examiner says so.  Evidence says so.  The officer violated policy.  A man is dead because he did.  And the blood is on the Mayor and not on the cop that killed a citizen for some reason 

But back to the topic- too bad they didn't decide to ease up on the mass arrests a few months ago- Garner would still be alive and owning another fine

Actually, the blood is on the hands of everyone all the way back to the voter's.  Is chosen profession- black market cigarettes- was created by a big bloated government which taxed cigarettes so heavily that a black market was created by government.  The "legitimate" players were pissed that he was meeting market demand without paying the NYC mafia bag man his "share".

At some point- we gotta ask ourselves:  Are tobacco and other taxes worth killing for?  Is anything the state wants really worth killing for?

"The Market" is a term we use to mean 'HUMAN BEINGS INTERACTING VOLUNTARILY.' What it means when somebody says "in this realm I don't trust the market" what they're saying is "in this case (for protection or whatever it happens to be) I don't trust people interacting voluntarily to have a good outcome." Well, there's only one alternative to voluntary, which is: involuntary. The other word for involuntary is violence."~Larken Rose

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

What has happened to New York City since this libertarian dystopian nightmare of an NYPD “work stoppage” has taken place? Not much, except maybe a few drivers have a bit more money in their pockets to pay bills. Once again, the hysteria surrounding a lack of government intervention into every aspects of citizens’ lives is shown to be what it is: a chimera; the necessity of it is a ruse, and the scariest thing for the news media is the possibility that this illusion should ever be pierced.

www.ijreview.com/2015/01/225319-2-nypd-officers-avoid-making-arrests/

[djAdvocate]

Jan 3, 2015 23:39:13 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 3, 2015 22:41:34 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

huh?  what stupid law was passed?  the law that says you can't strangle a guy to death for selling cigarettes?

I think you meant to quote someone else... However, to answer your question.

It was a statement of a requirement to enforce stupid laws (like taxes on cigarettes), in a general sense... not any one in particular. FOLLOWED BY something you apparently missed... people should obey the laws until/unless they are changed/removed. even if they ARE stupid.

i was asking VB.  sorry, i should have quoted him, not you.  my apologies.

[djAdvocate]

Jan 4, 2015 0:45:28 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

What has happened to New York City since this libertarian dystopian nightmare of an NYPD “work stoppage” has taken place? Not much, except maybe a few drivers have a bit more money in their pockets to pay bills. Once again, the hysteria surrounding a lack of government intervention into every aspects of citizens’ lives is shown to be what it is: a chimera; the necessity of it is a ruse, and the scariest thing for the news media is the possibility that this illusion should ever be pierced.

www.ijreview.com/2015/01/225319-2-nypd-officers-avoid-making-arrests/

perhaps those that remain are forced to focus on doing their jobs rather than harassing people.  bummer. 

[Willing Sniper]

Jan 2, 2015 18:32:27 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 2, 2015 14:05:22 GMT -5 @copperpouches said:

?   

That honestly looks like a choke hold to me; a hold for cutting off blood and air.  If a HS wrestler tried to put their arms like that in a match, they'd be stopped immediately, just like if they tried joint lock positions, gouging or spiking.  Some positions are extremely dangerous and can do immense damage with relatively little force.  We got trained in what not to do for everyone's safety along with what to do to win matches.  An arm flat against a windpipe is serious business, that's the power of a bone and heavy muscle vs. vital arteries and cartilage.  

To the untrained eye it may look like one. That doesn't make it one.

If I'm in a restaurant kitchen, wearing black slacks, a white Chef's tunic/jacket, an apron and one of those funny chef's hats... I may look like a chef... but it doesn't make me one. (trust me on this... you DON'T want me cooking for you!)

And of course we are all to disbelieve our eyes because of your trained eye? Ya right.

[Opti]

Jan 4, 2015 0:39:42 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jan 2, 2015 21:39:08 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

This is old crap- it was a choke as a choke refers to either air or blood- i.e. vascular restraint counts.  He died of it.  Medical examiner says so.  Evidence says so.  The officer violated policy.  A man is dead because he did.  And the blood is on the Mayor and not on the cop that killed a citizen for some reason 

But back to the topic- too bad they didn't decide to ease up on the mass arrests a few months ago- Garner would still be alive and owning another fine

Actually, the blood is on the hands of everyone all the way back to the voter's.  Is chosen profession- black market cigarettes- was created by a big bloated government which taxed cigarettes so heavily that a black market was created by government.  The "legitimate" players were pissed that he was meeting market demand without paying the NYC mafia bag man his "share".

At some point- we gotta ask ourselves:  Are tobacco and other taxes worth killing for?  Is anything the state wants really worth killing for?

"The Market" is a term we use to mean 'HUMAN BEINGS INTERACTING VOLUNTARILY.' What it means when somebody says "in this realm I don't trust the market" what they're saying is "in this case (for protection or whatever it happens to be) I don't trust people interacting voluntarily to have a good outcome." Well, there's only one alternative to voluntary, which is: involuntary. The other word for involuntary is violence."~Larken Rose

Some conservatives really confuse me. Sometimes they are against criminals who operate

on a cash basis and then other times they appear to be OK with it as long as apparently

government can be painted as a bad guy.

Now it might be just reason talking, but I don't get why one guy illegally selling cigarettes

dying while being restrained by police means suddenly we need to repeal cigarette taxes

because otherwise there will be an epidemic of cash only cigarette sellers dying.

Tobacco kills. People do black market and grey market stuff all the time and most of the

time it has nothing to do with taxes unless you count the desire to have lots of unreported

income and possibly qualify for government programs.

Its a tragedy the guy died and procedures probably should be refined for large

people and those with breathing difficulties. But they weren't trying to kill the guy, they

just screwed up and caused his death. Should we pass a law that toddlers can't touch

purses or women can't carry guns in purses just because one unthinking Mom left her

gun and purse within reach of her toddler? Isolated uncommon incidents should not drive

policy.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jan 5, 2015 15:07:49 GMT -5 Opti said:

Jan 4, 2015 0:39:42 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Actually, the blood is on the hands of everyone all the way back to the voter's.  Is chosen profession- black market cigarettes- was created by a big bloated government which taxed cigarettes so heavily that a black market was created by government.  The "legitimate" players were pissed that he was meeting market demand without paying the NYC mafia bag man his "share".

At some point- we gotta ask ourselves:  Are tobacco and other taxes worth killing for?  Is anything the state wants really worth killing for?

"The Market" is a term we use to mean 'HUMAN BEINGS INTERACTING VOLUNTARILY.' What it means when somebody says "in this realm I don't trust the market" what they're saying is "in this case (for protection or whatever it happens to be) I don't trust people interacting voluntarily to have a good outcome." Well, there's only one alternative to voluntary, which is: involuntary. The other word for involuntary is violence."~Larken Rose

Some conservatives really confuse me. Sometimes they are against criminals who operate

on a cash basis and then other times they appear to be OK with it as long as apparently

government can be painted as a bad guy.

Now it might be just reason talking, but I don't get why one guy illegally selling cigarettes

dying while being restrained by police means suddenly we need to repeal cigarette taxes

because otherwise there will be an epidemic of cash only cigarette sellers dying.

Tobacco kills. People do black market and grey market stuff all the time and most of the

time it has nothing to do with taxes unless you count the desire to have lots of unreported

income and possibly qualify for government programs.

Its a tragedy the guy died and procedures probably should be refined for large

people and those with breathing difficulties. But they weren't trying to kill the guy, they

just screwed up and caused his death. Should we pass a law that toddlers can't touch

purses or women can't carry guns in purses just because one unthinking Mom left her

gun and purse within reach of her toddler? Isolated uncommon incidents should not drive

policy.

I don't regard operating on a cash basis as a criminal activity.  I am consistent in my opinion that the bigger the government, the greater the incentive to avoid it, and the more arbitrary and dangerous the government will become in enforcing its tangled web of rules, regulations, fees, taxes, penalties, etc.

Government should be small, efficient, unobtrusive, use violence sparingly and only in defense of the individual's natural rights.

[deziloooooo]

Jan 1, 2015 21:49:31 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Do we really want the Police killing people over tax issues? That's what Garner was about.

It wasn't "Tax Issues". He was selling illegal untaxed cigarettes.

He shouldn't have resisted in the first place. Once confronted for questioning by police, instead of resisting, he should have allowed them to place him in the cruiser to be taken in for questioning without fighting back.

Instead he put up a struggle. Do you think the police officers should have just stood there and done nothing?

There's only one person to blame for his death. His own actions, and possibly his weight/health contributed when he continued to fight back when they had to finally try to restrain him.

Man was committing a crime...selling individual cigarettes non taxed....such a major crime...real threat to our society...had a family, job he did to provide for them...but agree , against the law..and he paid the penalty for it..police murd..oops, killed..oops..caused his death in apprehending him because he verbally spoke up ..diagreed with the arrest..protested...Yup, got what was coming to him...that will teach him ...police a bit overreacting?? Naaaa...Yeah right ...yup ..." only one person to blame for his death..His own actions.."......you really believe that Lassie??

How about step back...calm him down..talking...are Police inn such a hurry to get to another major crime scene..if really necessary...show him a taser gun...say will have to use it..if needed ..even taze him...There are other options out there...even just listening to a suspect.." Can't breeze, can't breeze "....possible back off a bit ?

[Deleted]

Jan 5, 2015 14:20:42 GMT -5 Willing Sniper said:

Jan 2, 2015 18:32:27 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

To the untrained eye it may look like one. That doesn't make it one.

If I'm in a restaurant kitchen, wearing black slacks, a white Chef's tunic/jacket, an apron and one of those funny chef's hats... I may look like a chef... but it doesn't make me one. (trust me on this... you DON'T want me cooking for you!)

And of course we are all to disbelieve our eyes because of your trained eye? Ya right.

Disbelieve or believe at your leisure... it's a free country.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jan 5, 2015 16:21:33 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Jan 1, 2015 21:49:31 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

It wasn't "Tax Issues". He was selling illegal untaxed cigarettes.

He shouldn't have resisted in the first place. Once confronted for questioning by police, instead of resisting, he should have allowed them to place him in the cruiser to be taken in for questioning without fighting back.

Instead he put up a struggle. Do you think the police officers should have just stood there and done nothing?

There's only one person to blame for his death. His own actions, and possibly his weight/health contributed when he continued to fight back when they had to finally try to restrain him.

Man was committing a crime...selling individual cigarettes non taxed....such a major crime...real threat to our society...had a family, job he did to provide for them...but agree , against the law..and he paid the penalty for it..police murd..oops, killed..oops..caused his death in apprehending him because he verbally spoke up ..diagreed with the arrest..protested...Yup, got what was coming to him...that will teach him ...police a bit overreacting?? Naaaa...Yeah right ...yup ..." only one person to blame for his death..His own actions.."......you really believe that Lassie??

How about step back...calm him down..talking...are Police inn such a hurry to get to another major crime scene..if really necessary...show him a taser gun...say will have to use it..if needed ..even taze him...There are other options out there...even just listening to a suspect.." Can't breeze, can't breeze "....possible back off a bit ?

I think the police in NYC have better things to do than act as a gang of tax collectors for the bloated NYC bureaucracy.  The "work stoppage" pretty much makes it not academic.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2015 9:18:19 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Well, that is true too. We stop reflexively calling the Police for every disagreement on the planet. And, we better stop passing ridiculous law upon law upon law.

But if they stop passing law upon law upon law, Congress gets accused of being a do nothing body with low approval rates because they're doing nothing. Of course repealing a lot of those laws could be a way of putting our lawmakers to work.

[fairlycrazy23]

Since arrests have plummeted has the city descended into anarchy and mass histeria?

I think the average citizen won't notice,except they maybe have more money and freedom. But the city and mayor will take notice of the reduced revenue

[Value Buy]

Jan 5, 2015 23:13:19 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jan 5, 2015 16:21:33 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Man was committing a crime...selling individual cigarettes non taxed....such a major crime...real threat to our society...had a family, job he did to provide for them...but agree , against the law..and he paid the penalty for it..police murd..oops, killed..oops..caused his death in apprehending him because he verbally spoke up ..diagreed with the arrest..protested...Yup, got what was coming to him...that will teach him ...police a bit overreacting?? Naaaa...Yeah right ...yup ..." only one person to blame for his death..His own actions.."......you really believe that Lassie??

How about step back...calm him down..talking...are Police inn such a hurry to get to another major crime scene..if really necessary...show him a taser gun...say will have to use it..if needed ..even taze him...There are other options out there...even just listening to a suspect.." Can't breeze, can't breeze "....possible back off a bit ?

I think the police in NYC have better things to do than act as a gang of tax collectors for the bloated NYC bureaucracy.  The "work stoppage" pretty much makes it not academic.

I wonder if they were untaxed cigarettes.

If he legally bought a pack or carton from a retail establishment, who sold a taxed carton, to him, they were "taxed". He would be considered hurting the retail bodega who cannot sell that loosie to the consumer.

Now, if he was selling cigarettes illegally brought in from a southern state, or bought on an Indian reservation, it would be an untaxed cigarette. and unfair competition to legal and licensed businesses

[zibazinski]

Don't know but lawyers and bail bonds people are whining about no business. That's a win-win in my book.