Willing Sniper
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Post by Willing Sniper on Jan 1, 2015 23:08:32 GMT -5
Resisting? Watch the video. He actually DID have his hands up in the air in front of him. And, yeah, he was arguing a bit. That was no reason to put him in a chokehold. Do we need arrest people for such crap? How about writing him up a ticket and handing it to him instead? Sheesh. I watched the video. There was no "choke hold" (how many times does that need to be restated?). If the penalty is ONLY a fine... I agree... write him a ticket. Was there a possibility that the penalty could include jail time? If there was, then, in that case, the appropriate thing to do is take the person in. But, again, had he obeyed the lawful order of the cop, he wouldn't have died. Or... better yet... if he hadn't broken the law in the first place, he wouldn't have died. It was 100% escalation. Unnecessary, and tragic, escalation... but it did have several avoidable points before it got to it's final result. MOST of those avoidable points are on the criminal.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 1, 2015 23:11:48 GMT -5
Who are you gonna believe, Richard or your lying eyes?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 23:15:25 GMT -5
Not enough context for me to agree or not. A crime is committed when a law is broken. Criminal laws are passed because continued activity along outlawed lines negatively affects somebody. Vagrancy generally only negatively affects the vagrant. Yet it is a crime. I disagree. It negatively affects the shop or homeowners and how their property looks... on public areas it drags down the appearance (and reputation) of the neighborhood or area.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 23:17:20 GMT -5
I watched the video. There was no "choke hold" (how many times does that need to be restated?). If the penalty is ONLY a fine... I agree... write him a ticket. Was there a possibility that the penalty could include jail time? If there was, then, in that case, the appropriate thing to do is take the person in. But, again, had he obeyed the lawful order of the cop, he wouldn't have died. Or... better yet... if he hadn't broken the law in the first place, he wouldn't have died. It was 100% escalation. Unnecessary, and tragic, escalation... but it did have several avoidable points before it got to it's final result. MOST of those avoidable points are on the criminal. Yup. Saw that. Not a choke hold. A choke hold is a hold with the INTENT to choke. That is intended to immobilize. Keep calling it a choke hold, and I'll keep correcting that it's not.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 23:17:59 GMT -5
Who are you gonna believe, Richard or your lying eyes? I'd go with "believe your truth seeing eyes"... the ones that see that as what it is. Not a choke hold.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 1, 2015 23:20:14 GMT -5
Who are you gonna believe, Richard or your lying eyes? I'd go with "believe your truth seeing eyes"... the ones that see that as what it is. Not a choke hold. One more time. This is the ...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 23:39:48 GMT -5
I'd go with "believe your truth seeing eyes"... the ones that see that as what it is. Not a choke hold. One more time. This is the ... I prefer... ETA: sock puppets are disturbing...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 1, 2015 23:56:41 GMT -5
nah. i think it is priorities. if the police department prioritized crimes that actually have victims over those that don't, it would sew a world of goodwill. Part of the problem is, if there is no (unwilling*) victim, there should be no "crime". *unwilling in this reference means that they didn't choose to be involved. Example: A person that freely chooses to gamble cannot be considered "unwilling" to lose his/her money. correct. consent is the thing. if you consent to it, then whether you are harmed by it or not is immaterial, so long as you were made aware of those risks.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 2, 2015 0:02:48 GMT -5
Preference has nothing to do with choice of background music. One needs to go with something that captures the essence of the moment, and the moment, and the moment, and the moment, and the moment, and the moment, and the moment, and the moment, and the moment, and the moment, and the moment, and the moment, and the moment , and the moment, and the moment, and the moment, and the moment, and the moment, and the moment, and the moment, and the moment, and the moment ... and the song that never ends ...
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Willing Sniper
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Post by Willing Sniper on Jan 2, 2015 3:34:39 GMT -5
That my friends is a choke hold.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 2, 2015 6:28:25 GMT -5
Not enough context for me to agree or not. A crime is committed when a law is broken. Criminal laws are passed because continued activity along outlawed lines negatively affects somebody. Vagrancy generally only negatively affects the vagrant. Yet it is a crime. Not true. I avoid places and areas where there's this issue. I didn't look in Winter Park because of it. So a potential home seller lost a potential buyer because the area can't clean up their streets so I feel safe. I don't go to certain gas stations because I don't feel safe getting out of my car because of people asking for money. This impacts the owner. I don't shop at stores who let people solicit money. This impacts the stores.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 2, 2015 9:48:34 GMT -5
Vagrancy generally only negatively affects the vagrant. Yet it is a crime. Not true. I avoid places and areas where there's this issue. I didn't look in Winter Park because of it. So a potential home seller lost a potential buyer because the area can't clean up their streets so I feel safe. I don't go to certain gas stations because I don't feel safe getting out of my car because of people asking for money. This impacts the owner. I don't shop at stores who let people solicit money. This impacts the stores. You're not describing vagrancy. You are describing panhandling and loitering.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 2, 2015 9:52:12 GMT -5
I think the big, bloated, over-staffed, over-paid, under-worked public employee union NYPD is taking a huge gamble with this work stoppage. The result may just be that people don't notice the police are missing- or worse, they do notice, and they don't miss them.
Indiana's former governor Mitch Daniels is fond of saying, "You'd be amazed at how much government you never miss".
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 2, 2015 11:46:22 GMT -5
I think the big, bloated, over-staffed, over-paid, under-worked public employee union NYPD is taking a huge gamble with this work stoppage. The result may just be that people don't notice the police are missing- or worse, they do notice, and they don't miss them. Indiana's former governor Mitch Daniels is fond of saying, "You'd be amazed at how much government you never miss". if this is the trimming he was referring to, then i agree.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 12:01:40 GMT -5
Not enough context for me to agree or not. A crime is committed when a law is broken. Criminal laws are passed because continued activity along outlawed lines negatively affects somebody. Not true in all cases. And in some other cases the "negative effect" is freely chosen. In all cases where it's not true OR it's freely chosen, it's imposed morality based on the morals of the majority... morals which are subjective and personal in nature. I originally typed, "Criminal laws are mostly passed"... I guess I should of let the "mostly" stay in there.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 12:38:16 GMT -5
Not enough context for me to agree or not. A crime is committed when a law is broken. you are trivializing the idea. it is not helping you understand it.Criminal laws are passed because continued activity along outlawed lines negatively affects somebody. immaterial. the standard is not whether it negatively affects someone. this argument is negatively affecting me, but i have no legal authority to deny your speech. i have a responsibility to take care of myself, and any offenses that are taken in the exercise of your freedoms are MY problem. i would strongly suggest that you pick up a copy of "Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do- The Absurdity of Consensual Crime in a Free Society". edit: review and overview here: www.amazon.com/Aint-Nobodys-Business-You-Consensual/dp/192976717Xi don't really have the time or the patience to explain it, here, AGAIN. but the basic idea is this: i should be allowed to do whatever i wish with my person or property so long as it is not damaging the person or property of a non-consenting other. the key word is DAMAGING. hurting your feelings doesn't count. offending your sensibilities doesn't either. How do my statements negatively affect you (ie; Damaging)? I've never discussed this subject with you before. If you don't have the time to discusss it, why are you logged on here at a discussion forum answering my posts and posts from others? Consensual crime isn't absurd, it's accepted by the majority, as a part of our society. Unless you give me more detail about you feel is or isn't a crime, I can't agree or disagree with you.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 13:10:26 GMT -5
Not enough context for me to agree or not. A crime is committed when a law is broken. Criminal laws are passed because continued activity along outlawed lines negatively affects somebody. Vagrancy generally only negatively affects the vagrant. Yet it is a crime. And yet a majority of the people who live in an area don't want vagrants. It can be viewed as a Democratic/tyranny effect. Three wolves and two sheep voting on what's for dinner kind of thing.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 2, 2015 13:17:21 GMT -5
I know, and people want speed bumbs, red light cameras, and Christmas lights down by New Year's. There are still no victims.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 2, 2015 13:33:18 GMT -5
immaterial. the standard is not whether it negatively affects someone. this argument is negatively affecting me, but i have no legal authority to deny your speech. i have a responsibility to take care of myself, and any offenses that are taken in the exercise of your freedoms are MY problem. i would strongly suggest that you pick up a copy of "Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do- The Absurdity of Consensual Crime in a Free Society". edit: review and overview here: www.amazon.com/Aint-Nobodys-Business-You-Consensual/dp/192976717Xi don't really have the time or the patience to explain it, here, AGAIN. but the basic idea is this: i should be allowed to do whatever i wish with my person or property so long as it is not damaging the person or property of a non-consenting other. the key word is DAMAGING. hurting your feelings doesn't count. offending your sensibilities doesn't either. How do my statements negatively affect you (ie; Damaging)? they made me grumpy. I've never discussed this subject with you before. If you don't have the time to discusss it i have the time to discuss it. however, when it turns into a semantics discussion, when i have probably posted 50x on this idea....., why are you logged on here at a discussion forum answering my posts and posts from others? to discuss issues that i have not already discussed 50x.Consensual crime isn't absurd, yes, it is. however, you should note that i didn't actually say it before now. Peter McWilliams did. it's accepted by the majority, as a part of our society. the majority believes in a physical hell presided over by the dark prince. in March of 2003, the majority thought that Saddam was involved with 911. at that same time, a broad majority thought that marriage discrimination was OK. at that same time, sodomy laws on the books in 36 states prevented people from legally doing things as innocent as buying a sex toy, or getting (or giving) a BJ. forgive me for being less than impressed with what the majority accepts. as far as consensual crimes go, i IGNORE THEM. in other words, i willfully violate them at every opportunity. i have no respect for laws which gird the liberties of individuals, and i would encourage all other like minded individuals to act with as much contempt until such a time and place as the professional nanny class will be forced to cut their reins.Unless you give me more detail about you feel is or isn't a crime, I can't agree or disagree with you. i gave you 500 pages of detail. read it. edit: if you are bummed about having to spend the money, i will give it to you as a Christmas gift. just send me your address to my personal IM, and i will send you a copy. i encourage everyone who has not read this book to read it, and would happily do so for you, in this case.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 13:34:49 GMT -5
Vagrancy generally only negatively affects the vagrant. Yet it is a crime. I disagree. It negatively affects the shop or homeowners and how their property looks... on public areas it drags down the appearance (and reputation) of the neighborhood or area. Not to mention property values. That would be the damage DJ is talking about.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 2, 2015 13:35:15 GMT -5
I know, and people want speed bumbs, red light cameras, and Christmas lights down by New Year's. There are still no victims. there is no END to what people want to make their little worlds less offensive to their patrician sensibilities. but i was born to offend.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 2, 2015 13:36:02 GMT -5
I disagree. It negatively affects the shop or homeowners and how their property looks... on public areas it drags down the appearance (and reputation) of the neighborhood or area. Not to mention property values. That would be the damage DJ is talking about. you will note that i have not commented on this particular issue.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 14:05:22 GMT -5
Yup. Saw that. Not a choke hold. A choke hold is a hold with the INTENT to choke. That is intended to immobilize. Keep calling it a choke hold, and I'll keep correcting that it's not.? That honestly looks like a choke hold to me; a hold for cutting off blood and air. If a HS wrestler tried to put their arms like that in a match, they'd be stopped immediately, just like if they tried joint lock positions, gouging or spiking. Some positions are extremely dangerous and can do immense damage with relatively little force. We got trained in what not to do for everyone's safety along with what to do to win matches. An arm flat against a windpipe is serious business, that's the power of a bone and heavy muscle vs. vital arteries and cartilage.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 14:06:27 GMT -5
How do my statements negatively affect you (ie; Damaging)? they made me grumpy. I've never discussed this subject with you before. If you don't have the time to discusss it i have the time to discuss it. however, when it turns into a semantics discussion, when i have probably posted 50x on this idea....., why are you logged on here at a discussion forum answering my posts and posts from others? to discuss issues that i have not already discussed 50x.Consensual crime isn't absurd, yes, it is.it's accepted by the majority, as a part of our society. the majority believes in a physical hell presided over by the dark prince. forgive me for being less than impressed with what the majority accepts. as far as consensual crimes go, i IGNORE THEM. in other words, i willfully violate them at every opportunity. i have no respect for laws which gird the liberties of individuals, and i would encourage all other like minded individuals to act with as much contempt until such a time and place as the professional nanny class will be forced to cut their reins.Unless you give me more detail about you feel is or isn't a crime, I can't agree or disagree with you. i gave you 500 pages of detail. read it. 1) Grumpy doesn't count. As you said, feelings and sensibilities. You're contradicting yourself. 2) Absurd is just one descriptive word applied to a persons feelings on a law, who is in the minority. 3) Rule by the majority is what happens here. It happens when people vote. Ignore the rule of law at your own risk, that doesn't mean anything to me. 4) 500 page book doesn't tell me what "your" issue is in regards to certain laws. (I'm still waiting for EVT's 10,000 plus examples of lies from Fox news, you'll have to get in line. That's a lot of reading! )
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 14:12:16 GMT -5
I know, and people want speed bumbs, red light cameras, and Christmas lights down by New Year's. There are still no victims. there is no END to what people want to make their little worlds less offensive to their patrician sensibilities. but i was born to offend. The people born to offend usually seem to be the ones who worry the most about people who carry guns. I wonder why that is.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 2, 2015 14:19:17 GMT -5
i gave you 500 pages of detail. read it. 1) Grumpy doesn't count. As you said, feelings and sensibilities. You're contradicting yourself. no, i am not. i was using my feelings as an example of WHY "negatively affecting" is not sufficient. i am negatively affected by a lot of stuff in my life. but this discussion is limited to physical harm of my person or property. so yeah, my feelings don't count. and neither do "the majority"'s.
2) Absurd is just one descriptive word applied to a persons feelings on a law, who is in the minority. or the majority. when this book was written, most people thought that MJ should not be allowed for medical use. now it is allowed for medical use. when this book was written, gay marriage was only allowed in one state. now it is allowed in 35, and the majority supports it. when this book was written, Sodomy laws were in place in 3/4 of the US. now they are in place in NONE. so, yeah, it is just one descriptive word. but no, he is not in the minority on every one of these issues. things are changing in the US, for the better. 3) Rule by the majority is what happens here. It happens when people vote. Ignore the rule of law at your own risk, that doesn't mean anything to me. 4) 500 page book doesn't tell me what "your" issue is in regards to certain laws. (I'm still waiting for EVT's 10,000 plus examples of lies from Fox news, you'll have to get in line. That's a lot of reading! ) McWilliams and i agree about 99% on this stuff. and he explains it in a way more thorough and thoughtful way than i EVER will. give me your address and i will send you a copy of this book.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 2, 2015 14:24:14 GMT -5
there is no END to what people want to make their little worlds less offensive to their patrician sensibilities. but i was born to offend. The people born to offend usually seem to be the ones who worry the most about people who carry guns. I wonder why that is. you got that right, pardner. i don't want some clown setting his differences with me at gunpoint because he is to dimwitted to use his mouth.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 14:49:00 GMT -5
1) Grumpy doesn't count. As you said, feelings and sensibilities. You're contradicting yourself. no, i am not. i was using my feelings as an example of WHY "negatively affecting" is not sufficient. i am negatively affected by a lot of stuff in my life. but this discussion is limited to physical harm of my person or property. so yeah, my feelings don't count. and neither do yours.
2) Absurd is just one descriptive word applied to a persons feelings on a law, who is in the minority. or the majority. when this book was written, most people thought that MJ should not be allowed for medical use. now it is allowed for medical use. when this book was written, gay marriage was only allowed in one state. now it is allowed in 35, and the majority supports it. when this book was written, Sodomy laws were in place in 3/4 of the US. now they are in place in NONE. so, yeah, it is just one descriptive word. but no, he is not in the minority on every one of these issues. things are changing in the US, for the better. 3) Rule by the majority is what happens here. It happens when people vote. Ignore the rule of law at your own risk, that doesn't mean anything to me. 4) 500 page book doesn't tell me what "your" issue is in regards to certain laws. (I'm still waiting for EVT's 10,000 plus examples of lies from Fox news, you'll have to get in line. That's a lot of reading! ) McWilliams and i agree about 99% on this stuff. give me your address and i will send you a copy of this book. I have nothing against majority rule. I went to all private schools and never had any children. I still have to pay school taxes on my property tax bills. Another type of majority rule. Your stated issues are more of the same, but have zero effect on me. Are they better? That would be subjective to who you're talking to. I'm just neutral on those issues. I still can't agree or disagree on what "your" issue is in regards to victimless crime as I don't know what it is. I seem to lack the verbal crowbar with which to pry it out of you Thanks for the book offer. If I wish to read it I'll just download it myself. I've currently have about 30 books in waiting so it might be awhile.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 14:55:00 GMT -5
The people born to offend usually seem to be the ones who worry the most about people who carry guns. I wonder why that is. you got that right, pardner. i don't want some clown setting his differences with me at gunpoint because he is to dimwitted to use his mouth. I don't think anyone would. Just on a million to one chance it happens, don't use the words clown or dimwit. There are a lot of unstable people out there with little to lose. I'd miss you here.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 2, 2015 15:02:10 GMT -5
you got that right, pardner. i don't want some clown setting his differences with me at gunpoint because he is to dimwitted to use his mouth. I don't think anyone would. Just on a million to one chance it happens, don't use the words clown or dimwit. There are a lot of unstable people out there with little to lose. I'd miss you here. i'll use whatever words fit. but thanks for the advice.
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