djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 2, 2015 15:06:30 GMT -5
McWilliams and i agree about 99% on this stuff. give me your address and i will send you a copy of this book. I have nothing against majority rule. I went to all private schools and never had any children. I still have to pay school taxes on my property tax bills. Another type of majority rule. Your stated issues are more of the same, but have zero effect on me. Are they better? That would be subjective to who you're talking to. I'm just neutral on those issues. none of the issues i just mentioned have any impact on me, jma. this is not about "what i want for me". this is about what jibes with my beliefs.I still can't agree or disagree on what "your" issue is in regards to victimless crime as I don't know what it is. I seem to lack the verbal crowbar with which to pry it out of you Thanks for the book offer. If I wish to read it I'll just download it myself. I've currently have about 30 books in waiting so it might be awhile. if you want to know my beliefs, read the book. they are a decent reflection of my beliefs (on a bad day, probably better). if not, i can't really afford to spend any more time discussing it in detail. i have literally spent days of my life already discussing it with Virgil, Paul, and to a lesser degree tallguy and EVT. and that has been fun- don't get me wrong- but it just feels old, now. so, forgive me. no offense. Happy New Year.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Jan 2, 2015 16:00:39 GMT -5
Why should whether or not jail time is a possible penalty have anything to do with the decision to arrest someone- because it doesn't. No reason at all to arrest someone over this- it is part of their effed up police strategy and a waste of resources. It matters to the question asked: "why not just give him a ticket?" Tickets are given out when the punishment is a fine. Arrests are made when the punishment could include jail time. That's true of every crime I know. Not true at all. This country does not have the resources to do that anyway- it is a mix of officer discretion, policy,etc. whether someone gets a citation or gets arrested.
Don't get hung up on the word ticket- how does a misdemeanor citation in lieu of arrest sound? It is not a ticket- it is summons to appear in court where if you do not show up you get a bench warrant- which you will be arrested for.
Maybe the NYPD wants to arrest everyone they can but it is a stupid idea and a waste of taxpayer dollars- but that is not how it is normally done.
Sometimes it takes a change of law- like they did in various places to take the discretion away from the officers who loved arresting people for possession of weed and changed it to a citation only offense- before that the cop just could it out, write a citation, or arrest- and people wonder why so many poor and minorities were arrested on drug offenses.....because the suburb cops are not going to arrest junior college boy for a joint- and I should know- I have been caught with weed several times including having warm roaches in the ash tray, a dugout, and once a small pipe- and never got arrested for it.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 2, 2015 16:55:32 GMT -5
I know, and people want speed bumbs, red light cameras, and Christmas lights down by New Year's. There are still no victims. there is no END to what people want to make their little worlds less offensive to their patrician sensibilities. but i was born to offend. A trait we share. My portable basketball hoop has been up overnight since Christmas- right out front in the driveway apron. Cars parked on the street. I don't give a fuuuuuuuuuuuu.....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 18:26:07 GMT -5
That my friends is a choke hold. The sky is green with pink and purple polka-dots. Both your sentence and my example sentence have exactly the same amount of truth in them. It's not a choke hold
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 18:32:27 GMT -5
Yup. Saw that. Not a choke hold. A choke hold is a hold with the INTENT to choke. That is intended to immobilize. Keep calling it a choke hold, and I'll keep correcting that it's not.? That honestly looks like a choke hold to me; a hold for cutting off blood and air. If a HS wrestler tried to put their arms like that in a match, they'd be stopped immediately, just like if they tried joint lock positions, gouging or spiking. Some positions are extremely dangerous and can do immense damage with relatively little force. We got trained in what not to do for everyone's safety along with what to do to win matches. An arm flat against a windpipe is serious business, that's the power of a bone and heavy muscle vs. vital arteries and cartilage. To the untrained eye it may look like one. That doesn't make it one. If I'm in a restaurant kitchen, wearing black slacks, a white Chef's tunic/jacket, an apron and one of those funny chef's hats... I may look like a chef... but it doesn't make me one. (trust me on this... you DON'T want me cooking for you!)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 19:04:15 GMT -5
To the untrained eye it may look like one. That doesn't make it one. If I'm in a restaurant kitchen, wearing black slacks, a white Chef's tunic/jacket, an apron and one of those funny chef's hats... I may look like a chef... but it doesn't make me one. (trust me on this... you DON'T want me cooking for you!) Quoting you from a previous post as to why you feel it is not: My training is that certain positions and holds have defined names. Force used/intent does not determine what a hold is called. A full nelson is a full nelson, whether someone is applying collarbone cracking pressure and cranking the neck, or whether it's a gentle hold for demonstration purposes. The limb and hand arrangement determine that it is a full nelson hold. Intent and force used are only sub factors. Certain positions are inherently more dangerous. Clearly, it a hold is being used. We both agree on that. You say the hold is to immobilize. The immobility derives from locking an arm around the throat, as shown in the picture. I was trained that holds across the throat are choke holds, regardless of pressure used, and are not to be used, ever, in a HS match. They are flat out illegal moves, regardless of force involved. It's roughly the same way that fighters can't grip genitals. It could get very ugly very easily given the relative strength of the tissues involved.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 19:10:41 GMT -5
To the untrained eye it may look like one. That doesn't make it one. If I'm in a restaurant kitchen, wearing black slacks, a white Chef's tunic/jacket, an apron and one of those funny chef's hats... I may look like a chef... but it doesn't make me one. (trust me on this... you DON'T want me cooking for you!) Quoting you from a previous post as to why you feel it is not: My training is that certain positions and holds have defined names. Force used/intent does not determine what a hold is called. A full nelson is a full nelson, whether someone is applying collarbone cracking pressure and cranking the neck, or whether it's a gentle hold for demonstration purposes. The limb and hand arrangement determine that it is a full nelson hold. Intent and force used are only sub factors. Certain positions are inherently more dangerous. Clearly, it a hold is being used. We both agree on that. You say the hold is to immobilize. The immobility derives from locking an arm around the throat, as shown in the picture. I was trained that holds across the throat are choke holds, regardless of pressure used, and are not to be used, ever, in a HS match. They are flat out illegal moves, regardless of force involved. It's roughly the same way that fighters can't grip genitals. It could get very ugly very easily given the relative strength of the tissues involved. Incorrect. The immobility derives from locking an arm around the NECK, not the throat (the throat is a limited part of the neck, yes, but the throat is NOT the focus, the entire neck is), thus immobilizing the head and controlling action of the body (where the head goes, the body follows).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 19:24:13 GMT -5
Incorrect. The immobility derives from locking an arm around the NECK, not the throat (the throat is a limited part of the neck, yes, but the throat is NOT the focus, the entire neck is), thus immobilizing the head and controlling action of the body (where the head goes, the body follows). Yes, if you'd like to define that more clearly, you are correct, the throat is part of the neck. The officer's forearm is pressed to the front of the man's neck, and his hands are locked. That is a position that is called a choke hold from what I was taught. Are you amenable to the logic that intent/force are sub factors of a hold? Adding in, the body does follow the head, but in grappling what was emphasized for us was controlling the heaviest parts of the bodies; if a man's chest is pinned, there is rarely any escape in a match. As a woman, I had an advantage that my hips were a bit heavier than my chest, and I could alligator thrash. Where my hips went, my shoulders wrenched to follow as long as some bruising was fine.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 19:45:49 GMT -5
Incorrect. The immobility derives from locking an arm around the NECK, not the throat (the throat is a limited part of the neck, yes, but the throat is NOT the focus, the entire neck is), thus immobilizing the head and controlling action of the body (where the head goes, the body follows). Yes, if you'd like to define that more clearly, you are correct, the throat is part of the neck. The officer's forearm is pressed to the front of the man's neck, and his hands are locked. That is a position that is called a choke hold from what I was taught. Are you amenable to the logic that intent/force are sub factors of a hold? Adding in, the body does follow the head, but in grappling what was emphasized for us was controlling the heaviest parts of the bodies; if a man's chest is pinned, there is rarely any escape in a match. As a woman, I had an advantage that my hips were a bit heavier than my chest, and I could alligator thrash. Where my hips went, my shoulders wrenched to follow as long as some bruising was fine. That particular picture was freeze framed just before he released his hold (you do know that as people fall, sometimes their positions can be adjusted through no fault of their own... right?). He started the hold, with the crook of his elbow protecting the windpipe area, to take the subject down to the ground. That particular picture makes for good fodder for the "it's a choke hold, it's a choke hold, it's a choke hold" crowd... but doesn't tell the whole story, and, it's still not a choke hold. It's a take down hold that involves the neck and control of the head.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 20:21:14 GMT -5
That particular picture was freeze framed just before he released his hold (you do know that as people fall, sometimes their positions can be adjusted through no fault of their own... right?). He started the hold, with the crook of his elbow protecting the windpipe area, to take the subject down to the ground. That particular picture makes for good fodder for the "it's a choke hold, it's a choke hold, it's a choke hold" crowd... but doesn't tell the whole story, and, it's still not a choke hold. It's a take down hold that involves the neck and control of the head.I watched the video and the take down. I did not see an elbow protecting the windpipe in the process. The elbow looked off to the side the entire time, while the forearm was hooked across the front of the man's throat. Regardless, the problem with an "arms around the neck take down hold" if you will, is that it's not just the windpipe that is in danger. Major arteries in the neck take blood to the brain. Pressure on them chokes off oxygen to the brain even if the windpipe is clear. The "choke" of choke holds can mean choking off blood only, not just air to the lungs. For what it's worth, I have had a choke hold placed on me. Not in HS, in college, when an older friend was teaching me some martial art techniques he'd learned overseas in the Marines. He was much taller/bigger, and his elbow was protecting my windpipe. From blood pressure grip alone I got starbursts on black and my teeth were chattering from shakes afterwards. I recovered fairly quickly, but at the time could run for hours straight, climb ropes and slam out pushups, lots blood flow and lung capacity to spare. The only analogous thing I know of to pressure on the neck is when a person swimming next to me panicked and tried to hold me under water while they used me to stay afloat. The neck and genitals are just very bad places to have someone gripping, it's barred and very dangerous because there's too little resistance to massive damage.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 20:31:26 GMT -5
Whatever. It's not a choke hold.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Jan 2, 2015 21:39:08 GMT -5
This is old crap- it was a choke as a choke refers to either air or blood- i.e. vascular restraint counts. He died of it. Medical examiner says so. Evidence says so. The officer violated policy. A man is dead because he did. And the blood is on the Mayor and not on the cop that killed a citizen for some reason
But back to the topic- too bad they didn't decide to ease up on the mass arrests a few months ago- Garner would still be alive and owning another fine
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 2, 2015 21:47:04 GMT -5
That my friends is a choke hold. The sky is green with pink and purple polka-dots. Both your sentence and my example sentence have exactly the same amount of truth in them. It's not a choke hold One more time. This is the song ...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 2, 2015 21:48:30 GMT -5
Whatever. It's not a choke hold. One more time. This is the song ...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 21:50:07 GMT -5
Whatever. It's not a choke hold. One more time. This is the song ... Don't "one more time" me... I'm not the one mistakenly (intentionally or not) calling it a choke hold.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 2, 2015 21:52:21 GMT -5
This is the silliest argument I've seen (outside a kindergarten) in quite some time. Do carry on.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 21:56:37 GMT -5
This is the silliest argument I've seen (outside a kindergarten) in quite some time. Do carry on. I agree!
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 2, 2015 21:57:02 GMT -5
One more time. This is the song ... Don't "one more time" me... I'm not the one mistakenly (intentionally or not) calling it a choke hold. Hey don't shoot me. I'm just the piano player playing it one more time: This is the song ...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 2, 2015 21:58:33 GMT -5
This is the silliest argument I've seen (outside a kindergarten) in quite some time. Do carry on. I agree!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 22:00:54 GMT -5
Don't "one more time" me... I'm not the one mistakenly (intentionally or not) calling it a choke hold. Hey don't shoot me. I'm just the piano player playing it one more time: This is the song ... My point was, you could "play it" for the people that "request the song" instead of the guy sweeping up the floor after the dance...
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jan 3, 2015 9:10:28 GMT -5
Richard, I respect you.
BUT, that is a damn chokehold.
If I remember correctly this was taught to me in armed combat basic training and that is exactly what it was called.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jan 3, 2015 9:14:22 GMT -5
He asphyxiated. He died from lack of oxygen. So, yeah.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jan 3, 2015 9:14:58 GMT -5
Let's put the blame where it belongs here. It does not belong on the police.
1. The Federal and state governments have to stop passing stupid laws they expect AND DEMAND the police to enforce. Same for city councils.
2. As a civilian it is your duty not to break the law. Especially when you know what the law is, and you continue to do it, time after time.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jan 3, 2015 9:18:19 GMT -5
Well, that is true too. We stop reflexively calling the Police for every disagreement on the planet. And, we better stop passing ridiculous law upon law upon law.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jan 3, 2015 9:20:52 GMT -5
BTW, how many laws are there in the USA? Can anyone find a good link for that ? I have been looking around.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jan 3, 2015 9:24:26 GMT -5
Well, that is true too. We stop reflexively calling the Police for every disagreement on the planet. And, we better stop passing ridiculous law upon law upon law. Only bad things can eventually happen when you are told to enforce stupid laws. It is the law of averages. It eventually has to happen.
The brutal truth is, a policeman never knows what incident is going to go bad until after it has already gone bad, and is too late to change the outcome. I speak from experience I was an MP, and in the military they had some real stupid enforcement requirements, and when enforcing them, situations could and would blow out of proportion to the situation.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jan 3, 2015 9:26:22 GMT -5
BTW, how many laws are there in the USA? Can anyone find a good link for that ? I have been looking around. Does it really matter? The data would be outdated in a New York minute. (or insert "a Congressional day")
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jan 3, 2015 9:28:40 GMT -5
Case in point: New Year's day it became illegal in New York to take a selfie with a Tiger.
Now, if a policeman was involved at the time of the selfie, I see nothing good coming out of that situation
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jan 3, 2015 10:13:44 GMT -5
Yup. Saw that. Not a choke hold. A choke hold is a hold with the INTENT to choke. That is intended to immobilize. Keep calling it a choke hold, and I'll keep correcting that it's not. A choke hold would involve the officer having both hands around his throat. Got it?
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Post by Shooby on Jan 3, 2015 11:41:06 GMT -5
He DIED of asphyxiation. Duh.
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