zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 26, 2014 11:31:46 GMT -5
I'd freak. I'm already concerned because we have one little boy in our old fart neighborhood and he's already in a no boundary situation. As in he just walks into other people's homes. He came into a neighbors bathroom where she was. He's 6, he knows better. He's going to end up shot or hurting someone. People watch their animals if he's around. Parents are oblivious to their Damien.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Nov 26, 2014 11:33:12 GMT -5
People have different levels/views of nudity, privacy in one's home and curtains. What's offensive to you is not necessarily the same thing as what's offensive to me.
Totally irrelevant. It's not AT ALL okay to decide for someone else what their comfort level should be.
I don't understand how this is remotely debatable. Unless those women gave him permission to film them, he violated them. It is NOT okay to look at someone naked without their permission. It's not okay to film them naked without their permission. It is a crime. We may not agree with how it's prosecuted, but it is a criminal act.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 26, 2014 11:33:33 GMT -5
I have no curtains anywhere and I live in a family neighborhood. I do have them on my bathroom but I back up to a woods. If you go through the woods, you could see me probably in my underwear or less. I don't expect anyone back there but deer.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Nov 26, 2014 11:34:12 GMT -5
I am not sure but there's a good chance I would, yes. It would break my heart but I don't think I could sweep a nonconsensual sex crime under the rug just because my own kid committed it. It's not who I am. If I've raised a child who thinks that it's okay to take/share nude photos of neighborhood women, that means I've failed both him and myself on such a massive scale that I would need to reevaluate everything. 15 is (IMO) old enough to take responsibility for a criminal act. If this kid was photographing women nude without their permission, he is a criminal. I know it's not that straightforward - just thinking about this happening in my own family is seriously depressing - but at the end of the day, I have to remember that sex offenders tend to escalate. Today it's nude photos, tomorrow it could be rape. (And it's not like he has to escalate to rape in order for there to be a victim - the women he photographed are already victims.) I would try to keep him off the sex offender registry and get him treatment. I'd do everything I could to help him. I would likely have our entire family in therapy trying to get a handle on what went wrong and how. But I do not believe I would "save" him from facing criminal prosecution. Not necessarily. Teenage boys are a whirlwind of out-of-control hormones that over-take any common sense they may have. I'm NOT saying what this kid did was right, but I don't think it means his parents are terrible or to blame. I'm trying to figure out why there are so many women getting undressed with open curtains or blinds in this neighborhood? Really? I'm thinking about my neighborhood right now and can't think of a single female you'd catch a glimpse of nude through window... I often get dressed in the 1/2 bath of our house. Which has a lacy curtain over frosted glass. But in summer, it's not much of a blocker. This side of the house has a neighbor about 8 feet from the window. None of the windows line up but there are several on their house facing ours. They usually have the curtains/blinds closed. The neighbor has a couple of boys, approximately 8 and 10. They could probably get a reasonable view, if they wanted to.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 26, 2014 11:36:32 GMT -5
Looking through windows and snapping photos of women is creepy and disturbing but I am not sure any real harm has ensued from that per se.
Are you serious? No real harm has ensued? He's filming women naked without their permission. You'd be okay with him doing that to you? Or your daughter? People have different levels/views of nudity, privacy in one's home and curtains. What's offensive to you is not necessarily the same thing as what's offensive to me. Or Mmhmm (sorry, I needed a name.) And that's ok. But if 2 of the women don't feel violated and the 3rd one does, the cops/justice system/whatever needs to operate for the 3rd woman. Which is why apologies are important because then they know. The article said that the Dad apologized to the women, so they know. Maybe that's the reason he called the cops. I don't know. It didn't say if the kid had apologized or not either. No need to apologize. You're welcome to use my alias anytime, and I totally agree with you. People have different levels of tolerance for this sort of thing. It's a breach of privacy to be sure and that's very upsetting to some. They no longer feel safe in their own homes.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Nov 26, 2014 11:37:18 GMT -5
Well, it just wasn't one woman. It was several. And, there's just too much information missing.
A kid just doesn't go from 0 to 60 in a day or two.
Why didn't parents know what was going on until just now? Sorry, but I'm NOT going to assume my kid is an angel. I'm going to assume, at some point, they are going to use technology in an improper/illegal way. Not a matter of if, but when.
Our policy is that we reserve the right to look at where they are going on the internet and see what they are doing. We may look, we may not.
We also don't know what kind of therapy is available to the kid, or how therapy works for their insurance. If the kid really does have a problem, ( and at the outset, a BIG leap from what little there is in the article), normal, generic therapists don't know how to deal with sex addiction. They aren't trained.
One of the first therapists I saw told me that my husband could eventually watch porn again, on a limited basis. That's like telling an drug addict that if they just get high on major holidays, they absolutely are still sober and in recovery.
We were VERY lucky that my heath insurance covers sex addiction therapists. Many health insurance companies don't. My husband was also able to call up our insurance company and say "I'm an addict and I need help" (or whatever he said. I don't know, exactly, but it was along those lines.)
Who knows, maybe the family's insurance needs some sort of documentation that there's an issue before they will provide mental health services. And, maybe that documentation has to come from someone in a position of authority vs mom or dad.
We also tend to let our kids experience natural consequences of their behavior, and I'm pretty tough love with my kids. I've spent too much of my life (actually 75% of it) enabling other people's behavior. So, yes, I could totally see having the kids deal with the police if they break the law.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 26, 2014 11:37:20 GMT -5
Well, what are you going to do about that?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 26, 2014 11:38:32 GMT -5
Sorry, that wasnt for you but for Beth.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Nov 26, 2014 11:38:40 GMT -5
People have different levels/views of nudity, privacy in one's home and curtains. What's offensive to you is not necessarily the same thing as what's offensive to me.
Totally irrelevant. It's not AT ALL okay to decide for someone else what their comfort level should be. I don't understand how this is remotely debatable. Unless those women gave him permission to film them, he violated them. It is NOT okay to look at someone naked without their permission. It's not okay to film them naked without their permission. It is a crime. We may not agree with how it's prosecuted, but it is a criminal act. In terms of "am I going to prosecute you for this?" and "do I feel harmed?" yes, it is relevant. I'm not arguing that he didn't commit a criminal act. I'm talking about going to the cops and/or prosecuting is HIGHLY dependent on the women involved and their feelings for this. And what the total scope of the crime was. If it's just pictures of me, viewed only by the kid, I'm more likely to shrug it off. But once you get into distribution, not a chance in hell do I give this a pass. It's a criminal act either way but my feelings are very different based on the scope.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Nov 26, 2014 11:39:21 GMT -5
Not necessarily. Teenage boys are a whirlwind of out-of-control hormones that over-take any common sense they may have. I'm NOT saying what this kid did was right, but I don't think it means his parents are terrible or to blame.
I'm speaking for myself only. Consent is a HUGE issue in my house. At two years old, Babybird has the right to say no if she doesn't want to be touched or hugged. If she asks us to stop tickling her, we do. When she gets older, if she doesn't want her pictures on Facebook or the Internet, I'll do everything in my power to remove every image I've ever posted of her that's still accessible. Things like that are totally her choice.
In turn, we are teaching her to respect other people's boundaries. We are in the process of teaching her about "personal space." It's not okay to jump on people if they don't want you to, it's not okay to stick your fingers in someone else's mouth, etc. (standard toddler fare, it's not like I'm freaking out about any of this). But it is important to me that she learn how to respect people's boundaries, and that she feels absolutely empowered to defend her own (respectfully) at all times. It is vital to me that she understand consent. Respecting it, and defending it.
If I have a boy at some point, same goes for him.
So if this were MY house, MY son, it would mean that everything I'd ever taught him about what is possibly one of the most important values I have went completely out the window. He either totally disregarded, or never learned in the first place, the importance of consent. For me, that would be a personal and parental failure of epic proportions. I don't even know how to describe how devastated I would be.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Nov 26, 2014 11:40:29 GMT -5
None of the windows line up but there are several on their house facing ours. They usually have the curtains/blinds closed. The neighbor has a couple of boys, approximately 8 and 10. They could probably get a reasonable view, if they wanted to.
That doesn't mean they have the right to film you without permission. It doesn't really matter how you feel about it, unless you specifically give them permission to do so.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Nov 26, 2014 11:40:36 GMT -5
Well, what are you going to do about that? Not a damn thing at this point.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 26, 2014 11:42:24 GMT -5
If my son was committing criminal acts, then mostly yes, I would call the Police. I would rather my son be in jail and learn the consequences of criminal behavior earlier in life rather than later depending on the circumstances. If my child harmed anyone in any way or was having addiction issues and driving, etc I would contact the Police. However, this is a bit more grey to me. Looking through windows and snapping photos of women is creepy and disturbing but I am not sure any real harm has ensued from that per se. I would certainly bring it to his attention and seek the services of a counselor immediately. I mean teen boys are known for doing a boatload of stupid. And, yes the sex offender registry is something that will haunt him for the rest of his life. So, this is a tough one. You sure have an odd sense of what is right and wrong.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Nov 26, 2014 11:44:53 GMT -5
In terms of "am I going to prosecute you for this?" and "do I feel harmed?" yes, it is relevant. I'm not arguing that he didn't commit a criminal act. I'm talking about going to the cops and/or prosecuting is HIGHLY dependent on the women involved and their feelings for this. And what the total scope of the crime was. If it's just pictures of me, viewed only by the kid, I'm more likely to shrug it off. But once you get into distribution, not a chance in hell do I give this a pass. It's a criminal act either way but my feelings are very different based on the scope.
I agree that the women (the victims) should have some say about whether this is prosecuted. They should be informed and allowed to make the decision for themselves. Victims of sex crimes aren't always given that luxury, but they should be in my opinion.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Nov 26, 2014 12:01:28 GMT -5
IDK. I think it would depend on my kid's behavior up to that point. If he's already a kid with problems and I'm already dealing with them. I'd really try to take the "cold, creul, heartless" view - ie be rational and not let my "aw, he's just a teen doing teenager stuff!" view and try to do what's best for the kid long term (maybe involving the police WOULD be beneficial).
Do typical male teens really spend alot of time and effort to get photos of neighborhood women naked? Was it just one 'series' of photos from a chance opportunity OR does the kid have a whole collection of photos from many 'not so chance' opportunities? Is the kid 'trading' photos with some one else?
I'm thinking a chance opportunity coupled with some bad judgement on the kid's part would probably cause me to discuss the ramifications of what he's done (even though he (and who ever he shared the photos with) found it titallating. If he's going out of his way for these pictures I'd be seriously considering my approach and his history of behaviors before deciding what to do.
Most of those news stories about kids who do horrible awful things usually have a history of escalating behaviors that the adults around them rationalize as "kid being a kid".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 12:01:32 GMT -5
I am not OK with him doing it. I think there need to be consequences. I don't think this automatically classifies the kid as a Sexual predator who needs to be remanded to a watch list for life...
That's a completely different argument than saying that "no harm ensued" from what he did. At issue was whether or not to call the police. As I said, knowing the likely outcome, barring further incident/factors, I'd likely not because he'd be listed. I also said I think this practice is counterproductive in youth cases because it would lead people not to report or seek help when it does the most good.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Nov 26, 2014 12:04:28 GMT -5
In terms of "am I going to prosecute you for this?" and "do I feel harmed?" yes, it is relevant. I'm not arguing that he didn't commit a criminal act. I'm talking about going to the cops and/or prosecuting is HIGHLY dependent on the women involved and their feelings for this. And what the total scope of the crime was. If it's just pictures of me, viewed only by the kid, I'm more likely to shrug it off. But once you get into distribution, not a chance in hell do I give this a pass. It's a criminal act either way but my feelings are very different based on the scope.
I agree that the women (the victims) should have some say about whether this is prosecuted. They should be informed and allowed to make the decision for themselves. Victims of sex crimes aren't always given that luxury, but they should be in my opinion. And since the article stated that the Dad apologized to them, they know. And that may be WHY he went to the cops, because if he didn't bring this to the authorities, they would. And that's their choice/decision/right.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Nov 26, 2014 12:06:11 GMT -5
I wonder if telling these women/turning him in actually harms them more? If I had pictures taken of me, I would want them deleted immediately and preferably, not even know about it. I would HATE to have my picture used as evidence and seen by a bunch more people--police, judge, lawyers.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Nov 26, 2014 12:10:05 GMT -5
Do typical male teens really spend alot of time and effort to get photos of neighborhood women naked? Was it just one 'series' of photos from a chance opportunity OR does the kid have a whole collection of photos from many 'not so chance' opportunities? Is the kid 'trading' photos with some one else? I don't know. My kid brother just downloaded images from the web. And then didn't clear the browser which is how I found them. I told Mom (he lived at home and was probably 15 or so, I'd moved out) and she pointed out a binder where he kept printouts. Which still blows my mind - Mom knowing about his pron stash and turning a blind eye... I'd have expected her to toss it. But then again, she read all of our crappy romance novels, including the ones with a light sex scene so maybe I shouldn't be so naive. If my older brother had pictures/Playboy/whatever, I still haven't heard about it.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 26, 2014 12:11:45 GMT -5
"In terms of "am I going to prosecute you for this?" and "do I feel harmed?" yes, it is relevant. I'm not arguing that he didn't commit a criminal act. I'm talking about going to the cops and/or prosecuting is HIGHLY dependent on the women involved and their feelings for this. And what the total scope of the crime was. If it's just pictures of me, viewed only by the kid, I'm more likely to shrug it off. But once you get into distribution, not a chance in hell do I give this a pass. It's a criminal act either way but my feelings are very different based on the scope." I agree that the women (the victims) should have some say about whether this is prosecuted. They should be informed and allowed to make the decision for themselves. Victims of sex crimes aren't always given that luxury, but they should be in my opinion. I hope whether he is or is not prosecuted is not left up entirely to the women who pictures were taken. This puts the neighborhood women in an extremely awkward position. They have to decide to prosecute a neighbor's child for what is clearly criminal behavior. It's tough living next door or so to a neighbor whose son you just got labeled a sexual offender. Let the women have their say of disgust but let the police be the bad guys in pressing for prosecution.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Nov 26, 2014 12:12:43 GMT -5
At issue was whether or not to call the police. As I said, knowing the likely outcome, barring further incident/factors, I'd likely not because he'd be listed. I also said I think this practice is counterproductive in youth cases because it would lead people not to report or seek help when it does the most good.
Whether to call the police would definitely be a weighty decision. It might depend on any number of factors - we might consult with a lawyer first to find out the potential consequences.
But if this was my family and we decided not to notify authorities, in NO way would we be pretending that it was because what he did "didn't cause harm."
And if I seem sensitive on this point, it's because I've seen firsthand or heard of waaaaaay too many cases where sex offenders got off scot free for their crimes, and the reasoning for that is VERY OFTEN "Well, s/he was dumb and screwed up but we don't want his/her life totally ruined over one stupid mistake." Especially when the offender is a teenager. I've personally witnessed teenage rapists being excused for their crimes outright for that exact reason and it's bullshit.
Driving drunk is also a "stupid teenage mistake" but no one suggests that teenagers who commit it shouldn't have to face up to the consequences just because they're young and stupid and we don't want their whole life ruined. We hold them accountable. So why would we not hold 15 year olds criminally accountable for nonconsensual sex crimes?
Yes, it's bad to be registered as a sex offender for life. And I don't agree with kids being on the registry for life. But a) some mistakes have really serious consequences, and this should be one of them, and b) like I said, how the kid should be punished is a totally different argument than whether what this kid did was wrong.
It drives me crazy when people rationalize the actions of sex offenders in the name of "not ruining their lives."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 12:13:04 GMT -5
Porn is everywhere.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Nov 26, 2014 12:18:02 GMT -5
I hope whether he is or is not prosecuted is not left up entirely to the women who pictures were taken. This puts the neighborhood women in an extremely awkward position. They have to decide to prosecute a neighbor's child for what is clearly criminal behavior. It's tough living next door or so to a neighbor whose son you just got labeled a sexual offender.
How much say the victims should have is a fine line for sure. But let's be clear - "the women" didn't label the son anything. HE labeled HIMSELF a sex offender by his actions (if they decide to prosecute and that's the end result).
I don't think the decision should be TOTALLY up to the women, partially for the reason you stated (and partially for other reasons). There is often a lot of very bad backlash for victims who "ruin the lives" of the person who committed a crime against them.
But people who would consider the women at fault for "labeling" the kid a sex offender and would make them feel awkward (or worse) for that are definitely part of the problem.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Nov 26, 2014 12:18:53 GMT -5
And this is not that. P**n is consensual.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 12:19:34 GMT -5
Killing a person while driving drunk results in killing a person. I never said harm wasn't done, I think only one person did.... . There are levels of harm however. I'm not saying photographing someone isn't a violation, but it's not close to the level of violation you are discussing in killing a person. You seem to be assuming he is/will be a violent rapist, which is by no means a certainty with information given. We really don't know the disposition of the teenager. Most of us have said that would be a great factor. Question, if he just looked would it be different?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 12:21:17 GMT -5
And this is not that. P**n is consensual. Did I say it was? I wasn't responding to you, but whoever ws talking about their parent and brother...
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Nov 26, 2014 12:23:18 GMT -5
You seem to be assuming he is/will be a violent rapist, which is by no means a certainty with information given.
I'm not assuming that at all. It's a possibility, but even if he never commits another crime in his life that doesn't mean he's not a sex criminal. Not all sex criminals are violent.
Did I say it was? I wasn't responding to you, but whoever ws talking about their parent and brother...
Sorry, I thought that was in response to something else. I was reading too fast.
Question, if he just looked would it be different?
Yes. Film brings it to another level.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 26, 2014 12:43:54 GMT -5
... Question, if he just looked would it be different? If a 15 year old boy were walking down the sidewalk and saw a naked female in a window? I would say she is committing the crime, i.e. satisfying her exhibitionist sexual desire using an under aged person. If he went through the woods to get the view, he would be at fault.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 12:55:45 GMT -5
So, in our current society where we carry at least three things on our person that snap photos and take pictures excessively of everything from our food to our feet... if the kid was passing by and caught a peek and snaped a pic, he's now a sexual criminal.
Im not saying its OK. I am not saying that's what happened. I don't know exactly what happened. BUT i can definately see how a 15/16 yr old male COULD be in possession of pictures without being what I would consider a sexual criminal. Thus why disposition and intent, etc are important.
I've been in the special eduation field for a long time. I have observed that early intervention can be instrumental in changing someone's path.
I also have watched while early labeling becomes a self fullfilling prophecy.
Label a 15 year old a sexual criminal and what limitations are you placing on them? And what peer group are you casting him in to... and sometimes, well if you are one...
Intervention is needed here. What the teenager did was not right. He needs to know that. Depending on his disposition and intent, other actions might be warrented. But I would not AUTOMATICALLY label this person a sexual criminal and place him on a sexual offender list.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Nov 26, 2014 13:03:12 GMT -5
Intervention is needed here. What the teenager did was not right. He needs to know that. Depending on his disposition and intent, other actions might be warrented. But I would not AUTOMATICALLY label this person a sexual criminal and place him on a sexual offender list.
I wouldn't automatically "label" him that way in the legal sense either because as we all keep saying, it would depend on the totality of the situation and the kid in question. I mean, I would really like to believe a 15 year old could be rehabilitated and redirected so that nothing like this ever happened again. If we can't rehabilitate a 15 year old... let's just say I *really really really* hope it's at least possible.
But if he took nude pictures of women without permission, he's a sex criminal whether he is legally labeled that way or not.
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