Wow, this is pretty rough

[Firebird]

www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/07/this-widows-4-kids-were-taken-because-she-left-them-home-alone/374514/

Basically (according to the letter), this widow left her four kids (aged 5 to 10) home alone while she took college courses a short distance away, and they were taken away by the state without so much as a warning first.

This is one of those cases where I really feel for the mom, who was obviously in a tough spot and didn't have family close by to help her out.  I think a little investigation and possible remediation of the issue before traumatically yanking her kids from her care (and separating them) would have been nice.  Leaving them home was wrong, but the kind of immediate emergency removal described here should be reserved for the very worst situations.  The kids who are getting the shit beat out of them, the kids who get no food at home, the kids who live in crack houses, and so forth.

And this is another situation where welfare really misses the mark.  If she'd just had access to affordable daycare for her children while she attended college to eventually support them herself, none of this would have happened. 

Very sad. 

[Pants]

I disagree - I don't think she was wrong to leave them home alone. The oldest is 10, it's not like they were all toddlers. A 10-year old (not all 10-year olds, but many) can:
-Call 911 in event of an emergency
-Use the microwave and potentially the stove to make food
-Lock and unlock doors in case of emergency
I think they laws about children being home alone are too harsh right now.

[wyouser]

Wonderful time of the year to have that happen. Affordable day care? Right up there with an "affordable Care Act"...

[Firebird]

I don't have any issue with a 10 year old being left home alone, but I think that's too young to be supervising three younger siblings, including a five year old.  Maybe if it were JUST the 10 year old and 5 year old, but two more kids in the mix is asking for trouble. 

It depends on the kids obviously.  But I've known a fair number of 5-6 year olds.  I wouldn't feel comfortable with a 10 year old supervising most of them, especially with other kids.  Some 5 year olds are content to zonk in front of the TV or with a book, and some aren't.  Some 10 year olds are equipped to look after younger siblings, and some aren't. 

When I was about 5, I used to play with a friend down the street and some days her mom wasn't there.  We got into all kinds of trouble.  My friend even ended up prank calling 911 on one occasion.  Her older brother did nothing to stop us. 

I don't think kids that age should be supervised by kids only a couple of years older.  But this definitely wasn't the solution if the kids were otherwise well looked after and healthy. 

[milee]

IMHO it's a gray area. And for gray areas, it would make sense to try to work with the family first. Not only because there are so few foster homes and it's expensive to put kids in foster care, but because most kids do best in their own home so if it's possible to provide some support or training that would be best.

I can see many situations where it would make sense for a responsible 10 year old to be home alone.  I can see a few situations where a responsible 10 year old would be safe at home with a slightly younger sibling.  I am having trouble seeing a situation where it would be safe to have a 10 year old home alone supervising 3 other children, one as young as 5.  It's just too much responsibility with too much possibility of things going wrong.

But again, it would be less expensive and a better outcome for the kids if social services would work with the mom to get her some child care help if the only issue really was lack of supervision while the mom was at college courses. 

[yogiii]

I used to babysit two kids (3 and 5), M-F from 8-5 over the summer starting when I was 11.  I don't know what this woman's 10 year old was like but if anything like me, he/she would have been perfectly competent and possibly excited about watching the siblings for a couple hours.  Very sad story, I feel so bad for those kids and what they had to endure.

[yogiii]

Would I leave my kids with an 11 y/o?  No way in hell!

[Deleted]

It would be a lot cheaper for the county to help her with childcare than take her kids away.  Less traumatic on everyone too.  My 12 year old has been staying home for several years.  He's just not the kind who's going to get into any trouble, he'll just read or play video games.  But, I'm currently heading out to get my 4 year old from early release due to the weather and run him to a daycare because I only feel good leaving him with his brother for an hour or so. 

[midjd]

From what I know about the due process procedures in emergency guardianship/custody matters, the story sounds a little off. Removing a child from the home without providing the parent notice or an opportunity to respond (absent a clear, immediate, irreparable emergency) is a blatant violation of constitutional rights. If CPS screwed up and removed the kids without notice, a judge should have held a hearing and noticed everyone up. If both CPS and the judge screwed up, an appellate court should have ordered an emergency hearing. 

For her kids to be removed without notice and spend 2 years in foster care, I think there has to be more to the story.

ETA - in my state, someone can petition for emergency guardianship and the petition can be granted ex parte (without notice to the parent(s)) ONLY if there is a clear and immediate emergency. And even still, the judge has to set the matter for hearing (after granting emergency guardianship) within 10 days and provide notice to the parents.

Removed without notice and in foster care for 2 years? I don't buy it.

[Lizard Queen]

I had friends that started babysitting at 11, maybe even at 10.  Some kids are simply more mature than others (and love being bossy).


 For me, it depends.  Was it just for an hour?  That makes a huge difference to me versus an all-day thing.

[ArchietheDragon]

Not having a support system is hard. At the very least having a good enough relationship with your snoopy neighbors so they don't call the cops on you is a good place to start.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

This woman's kids are taken away. .. but the three year old in Pennsylvania was left in his situation long enough to be murdered.

Who the heck is deciding which kids get taken and which kids remain in the home?

They could have given her a warning and had social services work with her to find child care.

I was babysitting my 4 year old brother by that age for short periods of time. The worst he ever did was run around the house naked screaming. I still have nightmares.

[Firebird]

IMHO it's a gray area. And for gray areas, it would make sense to try to work with the family first. Not only because there are so few foster homes and it's expensive to put kids in foster care, but because most kids do best in their own home so if it's possible to provide some support or training that would be best.



So much this.  I especially hated the part where the kids were separated, put in separate homes, and abused.  It's ALWAYS sad when that happens but it's especially sad in this situation because they didn't even need the "protection" of foster care. 

I'm very glad CPS exists, but it really sucks when they miss the mark and on balance make a situation 10x worse.

I am having trouble seeing a situation where it would be safe to have a 10 year old home alone supervising 3 other children, one as young as 5. It's just too much responsibility with too much possibility of things going wrong.

Me too.  If it's a one-off occurrence ("Johnny, make sure Sarah, Katie and Tommy stay in the living room and play with their games or watch TV for 30 minutes while I run to the grocery store") that's one thing.  But it definitely isn't a viable longterm daycare solution, in my opinion. 

Even adults can't be in two places at once.  If looking after three kids of those ages would be challenging for me, I'd expect it to be VERY difficult (if not impossible) for a fifth-grader.  Especially since he obviously can't take his siblings to the park or anywhere else they would be noticed by adults.  They'd have to stay inside the whole time, and that could get very boring very fast.  Bored kids cause trouble. 

[Firebird]

I used to babysit two kids (3 and 5), M-F from 8-5 over the summer starting when I was 11.

Was there an adult "on call" in case something happened?  I've mentioned before that I allow the 11 year old next door to watch Babybird sometimes but there is NO WAY IN HELL I would let her watch BB all day long without some sort of parental presence in the background.  That's way too long for a kid her age to be watching a toddler, no matter how responsible. 

[Firebird]

For her kids to be removed without notice and spend 2 years in foster care, I think there has to be more to the story.

I agree that the story sounds a little fishy.  If the kids showed signs of abuse or neglect, that would be a different story.  And maybe they did. 

On the other hand, it seems like CPS has really been cracking down lately on not leaving kids home alone at inappropriate ages.  So you never know. 

[Wisconsin Beth]

Nov 24, 2014 13:14:01 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

It would be a lot cheaper for the county to help her with childcare than take her kids away.  Less traumatic on everyone too.  My 12 year old has been staying home for several years.  He's just not the kind who's going to get into any trouble, he'll just read or play video games.  But, I'm currently heading out to get my 4 year old from early release due to the weather and run him to a daycare because I only feel good leaving him with his brother for an hour or so. 

But 12 is often considered the age of babysitting.  I"m fairly sure my state still limits babysitting to 12+.  I'm told there's a more or less blind eye to the 11 yo babysitting but really, unless something happens (or CPS gets called by a neighbor) how are you going to know?  We only hear about the disasters. 

I don't think I'd leave a 10 year old in charge of 3 younger kids.  I don't know how well they'd actually listen to the 10 year old.  And I find it hard to watch my own 2 at ages 5 and 6.  And I'm 44!  But I don't like the automatic response of Pull the kids either.  God knows how many horrible families are out there where the kids keep getting returned to them.  Let's use pulling the kids for them.  This is assuming that the link is correct in that there was no other problems. 

[Wisconsin Beth]

Nov 24, 2014 13:21:44 GMT -5 Firebird said:

For her kids to be removed without notice and spend 2 years in foster care, I think there has to be more to the story.

I agree that the story sounds a little fishy.  If the kids showed signs of abuse or neglect, that would be a different story.  And maybe they did. 

On the other hand, it seems like CPS has really been cracking down lately on not leaving kids home alone at inappropriate ages.  So you never know. 

this is the 1st paragraph by the columnist in the link. 

Conor Friedersdorf Jul 16 2014, 6:00 AM ET

The following is a reader's emailed response to "Working Mom Arrested for Letting Her 9-Year-Old Play Alone at Park." I am withholding her name, though I know it. I cannot independently confirm every detail in her story, but after a bit of online sleuthing, nothing I've learned about her is inconsistent with it.

[midjd]

Oh I don't doubt that her kids were removed, possibly without notice, and she was attending college classes. But I highly doubt that they were placed in foster care for 2 years because the mom left them home alone on occasion. If they were, she has a hell of a civil suit on her hands.

[Firebird]

If they were, she has a hell of a civil suit on her hands.

Maybe it's all an elaborate conspiracy and this is how the county plans to pay for her child care while she finishes school! 

[weltschmerz]

Nov 24, 2014 12:52:18 GMT -5 Firebird said:

www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/07/this-widows-4-kids-were-taken-because-she-left-them-home-alone/374514/

Basically (according to the letter), this widow left her four kids (aged 5 to 10) home alone while she took college courses a short distance away, and they were taken away by the state without so much as a warning first.

This is one of those cases where I really feel for the mom, who was obviously in a tough spot and didn't have family close by to help her out.  I think a little investigation and possible remediation of the issue before traumatically yanking her kids from her care (and separating them) would have been nice.  Leaving them home was wrong, but the kind of immediate emergency removal described here should be reserved for the very worst situations.  The kids who are getting the shit beat out of them, the kids who get no food at home, the kids who live in crack houses, and so forth.

And this is another situation where welfare really misses the mark.  If she'd just had access to affordable daycare for her children while she attended college to eventually support them herself, none of this would have happened. 

Very sad. 

We have affordable daycare up here...$7 a day. However, four kids would add up to $140 a week, and I doubt she could afford even that. It's $560 a month.

[Firebird]

Honestly, if my salary wasn't enough to comfortably cover daycare for all my children (as well as other expenses, obviously) I would have a SICK amount of life insurance on my partner.  Probably seven figures.  Because stuff like this does happen. 

[Deleted]

Nov 24, 2014 13:23:08 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Nov 24, 2014 13:14:01 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

It would be a lot cheaper for the county to help her with childcare than take her kids away.  Less traumatic on everyone too.  My 12 year old has been staying home for several years.  He's just not the kind who's going to get into any trouble, he'll just read or play video games.  But, I'm currently heading out to get my 4 year old from early release due to the weather and run him to a daycare because I only feel good leaving him with his brother for an hour or so. 

But 12 is often considered the age of babysitting.  I"m fairly sure my state still limits babysitting to 12+.  I'm told there's a more or less blind eye to the 11 yo babysitting but really, unless something happens (or CPS gets called by a neighbor) how are you going to know?  We only hear about the disasters. 

I don't think I'd leave a 10 year old in charge of 3 younger kids.  I don't know how well they'd actually listen to the 10 year old.  And I find it hard to watch my own 2 at ages 5 and 6.  And I'm 44!  But I don't like the automatic response of Pull the kids either.  God knows how many horrible families are out there where the kids keep getting returned to them.  Let's use pulling the kids for them.  This is assuming that the link is correct in that there was no other problems. 

Right, but while my 12 year old is great for taking care of himself.  If left with his brother he's more than likely just going to get caught up in a book or on his computer and not notice if his brother decides to nuke the cat or something. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

We have affordable daycare up here...$7 a day. However, four kids would add up to $140 a week, and I doubt she could afford even that. It's $560 a month.

$560 for FOUR kids?

It cost me $545 a month for ONE pre-school aged child before we put her in public pre-school.

It costs me $630 a month for a single infant.

[Firebird]

It costs me $630 a month for a single infant.

Buahaha, it costs $50-55/day/kid here.  No difference in cost between baby and toddler either.  And that seems cheap to me.  Some of the city daycares are like $2500/month. 

[weltschmerz]

Nov 24, 2014 13:54:39 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

We have affordable daycare up here...$7 a day. However, four kids would add up to $140 a week, and I doubt she could afford even that. It's $560 a month.

$560 for FOUR kids?

It cost me $545 a month for ONE pre-school aged child before we put her in public pre-school.

It costs me $630 a month for a single infant.

Yes. Our daycare is heavily subsidized. There have been some changes made recently, where wealthy people would pay a bit more, and everyone is up in arms, with protests in the streets.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Subsidized daycare isn't ever going to happen in the States. Don't want to encourage them poor people to breed like rabbits yanno.

[Deleted]

I thought my daycare lady was cheap at $21/day.  I pay $630/month for preschool with after school care.   $35/week would be awesome! 

[ArchietheDragon]

Nov 24, 2014 14:01:01 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Subsidized daycare isn't ever going to happen in the States. Don't want to encourage them poor people to breed like rabbits yanno.

It already happens in the US.    

[gooddecisions]

Nov 24, 2014 13:43:25 GMT -5 Firebird said:

Honestly, if my salary wasn't enough to comfortably cover daycare for all my children (as well as other expenses, obviously) I would have a SICK amount of life insurance on my partner.  Probably seven figures.  Because stuff like this does happen. 

Maybe by the time her husband was diagnosed with lung cancer it was too late to get life insurance. I know I definitely didn't have all my ducks in a row when I was younger.

Assuming this is true, it's disgusting. My 10 year old neighbor has been begging to babysit my daughters. I haven't let her, but her parents say she is very responsible. Guess I better not even consider or else I might be reported to CPS.

I was 10 when my baby brother was born. We were poor and my mom couldn't afford paid babysitters either. Our grandma watched us a lot, but I watched him a lot while we were home alone, too. Nobody ever reported us, thank goodness.

I imagine this woman doesn't have the money or resources to go after CPS for the harm THEY put her children in- which was WAY worse than them being at home alone for a couple of hours.

[swamp]

Nov 24, 2014 13:14:11 GMT -5 midjd said:

From what I know about the due process procedures in emergency guardianship/custody matters, the story sounds a little off. Removing a child from the home without providing the parent notice or an opportunity to respond (absent a clear, immediate, irreparable emergency) is a blatant violation of constitutional rights. If CPS screwed up and removed the kids without notice, a judge should have held a hearing and noticed everyone up. If both CPS and the judge screwed up, an appellate court should have ordered an emergency hearing. 

For her kids to be removed without notice and spend 2 years in foster care, I think there has to be more to the story.

ETA - in my state, someone can petition for emergency guardianship and the petition can be granted ex parte (without notice to the parent(s)) ONLY if there is a clear and immediate emergency. And even still, the judge has to set the matter for hearing (after granting emergency guardianship) within 10 days and provide notice to the parents.

Removed without notice and in foster care for 2 years? I don't buy it.

I've been involved in emergency removal cases.  There has to be A LOT more to the story.

But if you listed to most of the people in court who have had their kids taken away by the court, they didn't go anything wrong and "the welfare lady took my kid for no reason and the judge won't give her back." Never mind that they continue to live with the kid's rapist, or continue to use drugs, or are not complying with mental health treatment, or don't do the recommended services........