zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 3, 2011 10:30:57 GMT -5
If you are young and start off with one being bad with money but willing to let the other manage it, then I see no issues, but when you get old like me, financial security is EVERYTHING, and I have no tolerance for getting involved (and dumped 3 guys over it because they were either not willing to change or saw ME as their way out-even worse) with train wrecks. Although I admire those that "stand by their man" I am not one of them. If you lose your money because of ill health, that is one thing, but bad management, that's entirely another.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 3, 2011 10:35:57 GMT -5
Me neither. You cheat - you are gone, you hit me - you are gone, you decide you want to be a woman - I am gone, you want to be irresponsible with our money - I am gone. And even though I learned to never say never, I am 99.9999999% sure that above mentioned things are deal breakers.
Lena
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Post by jospaced on Mar 3, 2011 11:16:48 GMT -5
I decided long ago that I would rather die alone than live with someone who is a financial hot mess.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Mar 3, 2011 12:51:21 GMT -5
Elizabeth, if I'm being nosey, please feel free to ignore this or tell me to MYOB. How do you and dh operate then? Do you try to keep separate finances?
My ex-h would do the same thing, agree to something and then run right out and do the opposite. What bothered me the most about his actions was that they screamed "We are not in this together, I am only interested in myself".
The reason we had any assets at all was that he did make a nice salary, and I did insist we save/invest a good chunk of it. It was a struggle every step of the way. When we were in our early 20s, I thought that eventually he would grow up and stop being so selfish and immature. I was very wrong about that.
He is approaching 50 now, has nothing but debts, and is very happy.
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Post by jospaced on Mar 3, 2011 13:07:39 GMT -5
Elizabeth, if I'm being nosey, please feel free to ignore this or tell me to MYOB. How do you and dh operate then? Do you try to keep separate finances? My ex-h would do the same thing, agree to something and then run right out and do the opposite. What bothered me the most about his actions was that they screamed "We are not in this together, I am only interested in myself". The reason we had any assets at all was that he did make a nice salary, and I did insist we save/invest a good chunk of it. It was a struggle every step of the way. When we were in our early 20s, I thought that eventually he would grow up and stop being so selfish and immature. I was very wrong about that. He is approaching 50 now, has nothing but debts, and is very happy. Same here. I am solvent all by myself. If I had stayed, there would be no retirement for me.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Mar 3, 2011 13:09:50 GMT -5
...:::"I've had to budget and be too frugal over the years to be interested in any financial train wrecks. Hence, DF.":::...
Well sure, marry a rich man and... I won't say there can't be problems, but they are much more FUN problems than the alternative.
...:::"I/we were lucky in that my DF actually wanted to change and have a better life for himself. Some people either don't care, or don't want to put the work into it.":::...
This is exactly it. There are some people who want the results enough to do what is necessary to get them. There are others who wish for the results, but will never actually do what they have to do to bring them about.
...:::"Although I admire those that "stand by their man" I am not one of them.":::...
Yeah those silly vows about for richer or for poorer only apply in good times. We should really just remove them altogther. "I vow to love and honor you so long as you stay in fine health, and so long as times are good, and so long as I benefit more than I lose. The second things turn against my favor, I am permitted in leaving and taking at least half of your money with me, whether I deserve it or not."
Hey at least its honest...
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Post by jospaced on Mar 3, 2011 13:15:37 GMT -5
I admit I made a huge mistake in choosing my ex. But, vows notwithstanding, I like to eat and have shelter.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Mar 3, 2011 13:47:29 GMT -5
...:::"I admit I made a huge mistake in choosing my ex. But, vows notwithstanding, I like to eat and have shelter.":::...
Well don't forget, if they break them too, then you are good to go. Vows go both ways. If he/she starves you, then the deal is already broken so you are just asserting your rights.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 3, 2011 14:10:22 GMT -5
DF has a LOT of health issues and it isn't a deal breaker for me but also implied is the fact that he has the money to hire help if those health issues get too much for me to handle alone. Would I get involved if he had health issues and was broke-nope. I worked hard for too many years at a job I hated so I would never have to take a job I hated ever again. I have enough to take care of me but nothing extra for someone who decided to play grasshopper to my ant.
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Post by jospaced on Mar 3, 2011 14:13:34 GMT -5
DF has a LOT of health issues and it isn't a deal breaker for me but also implied is the fact that he has the money to hire help if those health issues get too much for me to handle alone. Would I get involved if he had health issues and was broke-nope. I worked hard for too many years at a job I hated so I would never have to take a job I hated ever again. I have enough to take care of me but nothing extra for someone who decided to play grasshopper to my ant.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 3, 2011 14:21:13 GMT -5
Another thread got me thinking. We always advise marrying someone with similar financial values. Since there are a shortage of people with good financial values, I suspect that means there are some people who are doomed to die alone because they can't find a mate who happens to have good values.
Just because "similar financial values" might be on your wish list for a partner doesn't mean you can't find happiness with someone whose values don't totally mesh with yours.
I absolutely was hoping to find someone who was pretty much like me financially - bonus if he had an EF, no debt, and retirement savings when we met. DBF is 0 for 3 on that score, but he's learning to be better with money and frankly, I'd be insane to pass up a relationship with him because he didn't have the YM board to teach him things at 20 the way I did.
Everyone has their requirements, though. If "same financial values" is one of your non-negotiables, that's different - you just might have to compromise something else that's "nice to have but not required." And I DID have a financial non-negotiable for a relationship: He couldn't be a trainwreck (e.g., six figures of debt, couldn't hold a job, didn't have the ability to pay his bills on a regular basis because he was always blowing his money). DBF's not a trainwreck, he's just not as good with money as I am. The latter was a "nice to have but not required" for me.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 3, 2011 14:23:50 GMT -5
Like I posted on the thread in SS, I married a man 9 years my senior who can't manage his money to save his life. If I could do it all over again, I am not sure I would marry him. I have experienced so much pain and humiliation as a result of his lack money management. I went from having perfect credit to getting anxious every time someone knocked on my door because once we bought a house (in my name), his creditor's knew where to find him and started to serve him with court papers about his debts. He would never fess up to knowing about the debts no matter what I said. His standard response is to look at it like he is confused and says "Oh, I'll call them tomorrow." Never calls. Why would he? He know's it's a valid debt, he just doesn't want to hear me talk about it. If you ignore creditors long enough they will garnish your wages. At one point he was being garnished $1,000 out of his paycheck for a car loan that he never made even ONE payment on before we met. It got so bad that we had to file Ch. 13 BK. A very humbling experience. Anyway, I'm not saying it will be this bad for everyone, but it has resulted in my resentment and a lack of trust towards my DH. So sorry to read this, but I thank you for posting your story. My BF has a terrible money history and as much as we talk about marriage, I am scared shitless of marrying him anytime soon. I'm not going anywhere and we are committed to one another, and he is making strides in righting his wrongs, but I still think being committed in a non-legal way is the way for us for the forseeable future. I believe in getting the milk for free, so to speak. ;D Meghan, I thought you didn't believe in marriage? This post is news to me.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 3, 2011 14:25:33 GMT -5
The other consideration not taken into account here is a persons ability to learn and change. Financial skills are not like eye color - fixed for life. Hubs was in debt, had a junk car and had dropped out of college when we met. He had no one to show him how to make his way in life. But he was (and is) the best person I have ever met. And even though he had no money skills and had instincts about money that were invariably wrong, he was willing to change and learn. And that was the key. Today, he is much more practical about money and is extremely successful in his job and we've lasted for 37 years. All despite the fact he was once a financial trainwreck. Very well put. DBF, as I said, is learning, but he'll never have the freakish interest in personal finance that I do. And in some ways that's a blessing. It's easier not to have a fellow financial control freak in the relationship. He's perfectly happy to let me manage our finances and just tell him when we can't afford something, and when we're married I will be perfectly happy to do just that.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 3, 2011 14:28:36 GMT -5
If I could do it all over again, I am not sure I would marry him. I have experienced so much pain and humiliation as a result of his lack money management. I went from having perfect credit to getting anxious every time someone knocked on my door because once we bought a house (in my name), his creditor's knew where to find him and started to serve him with court papers about his debts. He would never fess up to knowing about the debts no matter what I said. His standard response is to look at it like he is confused and says "Oh, I'll call them tomorrow"
That is one thing I do give DH credit for, he is not in debt.
He would be content to live paycheck to paycheck and doesn't really understand the concept of saving for a rainy day, but at least he is on the same page as I am concerning debt.
If we weren't on the same page concerning debt we wouldn't have been married because there is no way I constantly want to worry about "Guido" coming to break my thumbs because of DH.
I can handle him being a present guy on most days, I'd never be able to tolerate someone driving us into debt along the way.
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dianartemis
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Post by dianartemis on Mar 3, 2011 14:40:43 GMT -5
Bad with money? Doomed to die alone!Well, I'm screwed then.
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Elizabeth
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 3, 2011 14:51:30 GMT -5
Elizabeth, if I'm being nosey, please feel free to ignore this or tell me to MYOB. How do you and dh operate then? Do you try to keep separate finances? My ex-h would do the same thing, agree to something and then run right out and do the opposite. What bothered me the most about his actions was that they screamed "We are not in this together, I am only interested in myself". The reason we had any assets at all was that he did make a nice salary, and I did insist we save/invest a good chunk of it. It was a struggle every step of the way. When we were in our early 20s, I thought that eventually he would grow up and stop being so selfish and immature. I was very wrong about that. He is approaching 50 now, has nothing but debts, and is very happy. Same here. I am solvent all by myself. If I had stayed, there would be no retirement for me. No problem Petunia and Jo. We have a joint account that both of our paychecks are deposited into. I manage all of the bills. He did have his own little spending account for a while, but he kept getting notices from the bank and just tossing them so I finally opened one. Not to my surprise, he had overdrafted the account by $300. The funny thing is this is an account that he has had for many years but it was frozen because he overdrafted it by thousands. Just last year, I found some extra money and paid the bank back, and they reopened his account. Now I need to pay them off again and I'm just going to close it. I do feel like I need to deal with this somehow. We both make good salaries so it's not as big of a deal now as it was when we were broke. But I understand that if I have to keep bailing us out of stupid debts then I may not have a retirement either, and all of the things I dream of doing for my kids in the future will be out the window. I have thought about the D word. But there are many other factors making the decision very difficult.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Mar 3, 2011 15:03:05 GMT -5
...:::"DF has a LOT of health issues and it isn't a deal breaker for me":::...
Or it means you get "your" money sooner.
...:::"Just because "similar financial values" might be on your wish list for a partner doesn't mean you can't find happiness with someone whose values don't totally mesh with yours.":::...
Agreed, but if you ever have to ask for advice, or feel upset about the financial problems, you get to put up with the holier-than-thou comments about how you should never marry someone who isn't good with money and how it was all your fault.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2011 15:08:04 GMT -5
Yeah those silly vows about for richer or for poorer only apply in good times. We should really just remove them altogther. "I vow to love and honor you so long as you stay in fine health, and so long as times are good, and so long as I benefit more than I lose. The second things turn against my favor, I am permitted in leaving and taking at least half of your money with me, whether I deserve it or not." Try walking a mile in our shoes, WWBG. Have you ever gone to work 5 days a week (sometimes 6 or 7 with 80-hour workweeks) and struggled to keep your own financial house in order while someone spent all day drunk on the couch, verbally abusing you and charging things for himself on your (non-joint) credit cards and hiding the bills from you? No, I didn't stand by my man and it was the right decision. They tried to attach my wages for his medical debts (he never filed the insurance claims) and we went for a year without phone service in the house because he ran up nearly $2,000 in long-distance charges and they cut it off. And I didn't get half his assets because he'd run through $200K he inherited from his mother during the years he was unemployed. Only part of that went for household expenses. I did remarry, and DH didn't bring much financially to the marriage, but he's very low-maintenance and he had no debt. He's also wonderfully supportive in other ways. I could not have raised DS (my Ex's son) without him. Although I managed to keep my own credit rating clean because the Ex and I never had any joint credit cards and I made enough to pay the mortgage and the essential bills, I'd live alone rather than get hooked up with a financial basket case like that again. If they're charming company, I'll have a drink with them, travel with them. etc. but no way I'd marry them.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Mar 3, 2011 15:11:03 GMT -5
Oh, I'm not trying to suggest the D word is the answer for you. My ex-h and I had other problems too, which were simply not fixable. I wish you the best of luck in finding a satisfactory compromise with your dh.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 3, 2011 15:16:32 GMT -5
Are you kidding me? After being hosed by his EX, I KNOW a prenup is coming for me.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Mar 3, 2011 15:18:12 GMT -5
"well they started to fight, when the money got tight" ;D B. Joel
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 3, 2011 15:20:27 GMT -5
Oh, I'm not trying to suggest the D word is the answer for you. My ex-h and I had other problems too, which were simply not fixable. I wish you the best of luck in finding a satisfactory compromise with your dh.
Didn't think so, I was just reminding myself of the positives after a head banging session the other day concering some spending.
It could be a lot worse and for the most part he goes along with me.
It's just figuring out how to do it with our brains being wired totally different. It's hard to figure out a system that makes sense to both a present AND a future mentality.
Right now we just had a baby so we got some new expenses and we're still adjusting. It's getting better, but it's been a bit more of an adjustment for him than it has been for me. He has to try to look harder at the future now whether he wants to or not.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Mar 3, 2011 15:43:24 GMT -5
I'd live alone rather than get hooked up with a financial basket case like that again. If they're charming company, I'll have a drink with them, travel with them. etc. but no way I'd marry them.
This was my mantra back in the days before I met DH. I had a couple of serious relationships where they were talking marriage when I discovered stacks of unpaid credit card debt, no plan to work on it, and a "live for today" attitude. Otherwise very nice men. I KNEW I'd rather stay single than marry someone who was OK with tons of debt. The irony is that when DH and I got serious, he got very upset when I told him I owed $800 on my only credit card. We were living together and he would not allow me to pay anything towards the living expenses until it was paid off...
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 3, 2011 15:56:26 GMT -5
Agreed, but if you ever have to ask for advice, or feel upset about the financial problems, you get to put up with the holier-than-thou comments about how you should never marry someone who isn't good with money and how it was all your fault.
I think not. At least, that's never my first reaction when someone posts about financial issues with their partner. And that's not the reaction I've gotten on the few occasions when I've posted about my differences with DBF over financial matters.
The truth of it is that financial issues are so complicated and fraught with so much emotion that even when a couple is 100% on the same page (in a big picture sense) there are going to be disagreements along the way - some major, some minor. Frankly, it wouldn't be healthy otherwise. Who wants to be with someone who just blindly agrees with them all the time?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 3, 2011 16:07:44 GMT -5
Lord, I KNOW DF and I will argue and I will "let it go" because I love him. He's HUGE enabler of his kids to extreme. I just have to learn to keep my mouth shut and my ears closed.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Mar 3, 2011 16:25:02 GMT -5
...:::"No, I didn't stand by my man and it was the right decision.":::...
Thats exactly why I say we should rewrite vows so they say what we really mean from the very beginning. If we aren't going to stay together no matter what, then why say so?
...:::"Are you kidding me? After being hosed by his EX, I KNOW a prenup is coming for me.":::...
Sure, but if he passes, you're golden.
...:::"I think not. At least, that's never my first reaction when someone posts about financial issues with their partner.":::...
Not everyone does it, sure. But I've been a YM community member since 2004, and there are too many posters who needed to make themselves feel better.
...:::"Lord, I KNOW DF and I will argue and I will "let it go" because I love him.":::...
The quotes around let it go imply that you don't really. You may not say anything, but I'm sure you are building resent slowly and surely. Its OK for it to bother you, just don't do that thing women do and try to convince everyone (including themselves) that it doesn't bother you when it clearly does.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2011 16:35:28 GMT -5
I had a couple of serious relationships where they were talking marriage when I discovered stacks of unpaid credit card debt, no plan to work on it, and a "live for today" attitude. Otherwise very nice men. Danger, Will Robinson! Reminded me of an old song written by Smokey Robinson called "First I look at the Purse": I don't care if their legs are thin I don't care if their teeth are big I don't care if their hair's a wig Why waste time lookin' at the waistline? First I look at the purse! A woman can be fat as can be, kisses sweet as honey But that don't mean a thing to me If you ain't got no money If the purse is fat....that's where it's at.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 3, 2011 16:49:16 GMT -5
Prenups also apply at death not just divorce.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Mar 3, 2011 16:50:30 GMT -5
I'm sure you'll figure something out.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 3, 2011 16:53:23 GMT -5
Thats exactly why I say we should rewrite vows so they say what we really mean from the very beginning. If we aren't going to stay together no matter what, then why say so?
That's part of the reason I want to write my own vows. I don't intend to stay with DBF for better or worse in the largest sense. To put it simply, I intend to stay with him for whatever better or worse life throws at us, which is different in my mind from giving him license to sink us and going down with the ship because I promised. Nor would I expect that sort of accommodation from him.
For example, if we lose a house because we have a fire, that's nobody's fault and of course we'll stick it out and get through it together. If we lose a house because I'm a drug addict and I put one too many mortgage payments up my nose, I think my husband would be perfectly entitled to a divorce. Same basic effect, very different causes.
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