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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 8:42:42 GMT -5
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Oct 15, 2014 8:53:12 GMT -5
Nice thoughts, but multi-billion dollars flowing through universities won't budge so easily. Not to mention all the employers that pretty much view that as the accepted way things happen.
College needs to go fully digital first and then some interesting things can start to happen.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Oct 15, 2014 8:58:14 GMT -5
Arrggh. NOT now!!!! We are in the college application process as I type. It has been a VERY llllooooonnnnngggg road to this point. Do not even dare to simply SUGGEST a change to the status quo until THIS one gets through. But, yeah, I am stunned at the changes in college, the search process, the application process, and, of course, the tuition since I went hundreds of years ago. Without even touching the actual college model, let's lose the heavy admissions spam mail that suggests YOUR child is special and is being "singled out" to apply with this "special" short form application. Oy vey. Anything to get the application numbers up, I suppose, but it can mess with your kid's equilibrium.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Oct 15, 2014 9:05:29 GMT -5
Well, there WILL be changes one way or another. The drop in the college-age population now that the Baby Boomers are almost done reproducing is going to create a college version of "survival of the fittest". And I am a Luddite. I am totally and completely against creating a purely on-line college model. IMHO, so much of the value of college is the social interaction between students, between students and professors, and between the college community and the outside world. No computer software will ever recreate that. Besides, our kids will never leave home if they don't first get their feet wet in a college dorm.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 9:23:22 GMT -5
I don't think everything has to be online.
I like this part best:
Lose the Transcript “We now live in a world where you can get any piece of information at any time. What if it wasn’t about information accumulation, but about developing competencies and skills,” Stein Greenberg says of this slightly more vocational proposition, in which students build individualized skill portfolios. “What if a transcript could be as unique as a fingerprint and really show and emphasize the skills you have going forward?”
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 9:24:03 GMT -5
I hated the dorm. I would never have finished college if dorms were required for 4 years...
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 15, 2014 9:24:58 GMT -5
While there are some viable ideas in there, I think more of it is nonsense. When I hire someone with an accounting degree (remember I'm in accounting) from a good instution I can be confident the person has the base skill set needed to do the job for which I am hiring them. If I had to hire someone who took 6-8 years to "self direct" their education I'm pretty sure that some would be seriously lacking some of the needed knowledge. Also (remember I'm kinda old school so I 'm just speaking frankly - no necessarily picking on anyone) it sounds kinda hippy-dippy lets give people even more excuses not to get their shit together and grow up. Just curious, who is going to support them while they figure out what the "arc of their life" is? Now the whole "Learning should be for your lifetime" I'm totally on board with, and yes that is a particular mindset we need to encourage more. But at the end of the day, let's face it - you need a job to support yourself (unless you think it's the obligation of others to support you ) and one way or another you need to acquire the skills to do so. Learning for the sake of learning is great, but it doesn't put food on the table.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 15, 2014 9:25:09 GMT -5
Interesting thoughts, but I don't see how applicable it might be. In other words, long on ideas, short on specifics and applicability to everyday life.
1. Lose the 4 year degree.
I do agree that taking longer than 4 years to complete a degree isn't that big of a deal, and there shouldn't be a stigma associated with it. However, I think these researchers are assuming students have unlimited funds to drag college out for six years, maybe taking a year off to tour Europe. I didn't have the money for that kind of thing, and I imagine most 18-22 year olds don't either. The author seems to assume all students are affluent enough to do this kind of thing. Plus, it also ignores the reality of finding a job. In an ideal world, a student can go and get a job for a year in their industry, but things aren't that easy. A lot of employers aren't interested in hiring young and inexperienced workers and giving them meaningful work, especially without the degree. I don't see any work outside of your proposed field of study having any real meaning. If I want to be Vetrinarian, what good would working as a Waiter or truck driver do? Conversely, what vet would hire me without any real formal education? In my experience also, most employers don't want to hire people on a short term basis, like one year.
2. Lose the high school to college model
While the idea of waiting until you're ready sounds good in theory, there is a reason most people do college in their young adult years. You don't have the responsibilities of a family and a mortgage and a demanding job. The longer you wait, the more responsibilities will accumulate and the harder it will be to devote your full attention to school. It can be done, but it's easier to focus on classes when you're 19 with no kids, no job, and no house. Also, as mentioned above, just taking your time and exploring topics that interest you sounds like something you do when money is not a concern. This statement totally ignores the very real financial costs that college imposes on most.
3. Lose the transcript
It's an interesting idea, but would apply to some fields of study better than others. I majored in physics in college. It's not really something you can design a "skill portfolio" for. Physics is the kind of area where you are presented with a problem, and either your answer to the problem is right or it's not. There really isn't a "in between." The way you demonstrate mastery of the material is providing solutions to problems.
4. Lose the major
Does every person who goes to college need a lofty and arguably unreachable goal? I went to college because I wanted a good job and I enjoyed science. That was all the motivation I needed. If I had to come up with something like "I'm going to win the Nobel prize in Physics" what purpose would it serve. I knew I'd probably never win the Nobel prize or solve some great world problem. The article argues that you should take your time and examine your options before committing to something, but then turns around and asks students to declare their life mission.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 15, 2014 9:26:24 GMT -5
I don't think everything has to be online. I like this part best: Lose the Transcript “We now live in a world where you can get any piece of information at any time. What if it wasn’t about information accumulation, but about developing competencies and skills,” Stein Greenberg says of this slightly more vocational proposition, in which students build individualized skill portfolios. “What if a transcript could be as unique as a fingerprint and really show and emphasize the skills you have going forward?” When I'm hiring people I don't have the time or desire to figure out their individual fingerprints...I need to know they have a core skill set.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 15, 2014 9:30:46 GMT -5
Basically it seems like those promoting this idea are those that are lifetime students in ivory towers anyway. Most people don't have the money to be an indefinite student and take 6-8 years to "self-direct" their learning.
And Thecaptain made a good point. Majors are useful in establishing core competencies for specific fields. If we ditch that model, employers will have to try and discern from a "skill based portfolio" who has the skills they need and who doesn't.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Oct 15, 2014 9:32:25 GMT -5
Not everything can be online, either.
Some things, like the arts or anatomy classes I would think need to have some face-to-face component. I wouldn't want a tech to stick me with a needle who has only read about it online. I'm not sure how one would have band or orchestra rehearsals online, either.
However, a good online program will foster lots of interactions. The online programs I support have discussion forums that are lively and web conferences. Both of which are mandatory and that is reflected in a grade.
The fallacy is that online is cheap. Online done well is not cheap. If you want to create a course that accommodates all types of learners, that's not going to be cheap.
MOOCs have not taken off. In fact, one of the major MOOC providers will start charging soon. If you want a paper demonstrating you took a coursera course, you now have to pay $50 for it.
We have a competency based degree program in my state. To keeps costs down, they are hiring college students to serve as admission advisors.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 9:32:57 GMT -5
It isn't just taking longer though... Why wait till 12th grade? Why are we supporting dual systems that reproduce similar classes at high school and college level. I could see just a s many kids being ready to start early as are liable to wait a few more years, or maybe they Change, or combine novel dual degrees in ways that inspire innovation. We should be inspiring polymaths, not limiting education options to a specific set of classes.
Yes, I think work is essential. Again, I don't see why it has to wait until 18 or 22... If kids were doing real work they were engaged in earlier, it would be terrific. (Hey, I'd go so far as to suggest that sending kids out on apprenticeships for 3 years would be a lot better than any middle school...)
I learned as much from work as I did from college. I like the idea of building experience and education simultaneously.
I think skill based will be the wave of the future. I like the idea of core competency levels for Algebra II, or Accounting 101... And take the class. Or read the book, or form a study group, whatever, and pass the competency and put it on your transcript.
Like passing the bar used to be...
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 15, 2014 9:34:44 GMT -5
I don't think everything has to be online. I like this part best: Lose the Transcript “We now live in a world where you can get any piece of information at any time. What if it wasn’t about information accumulation, but about developing competencies and skills,” Stein Greenberg says of this slightly more vocational proposition, in which students build individualized skill portfolios. “What if a transcript could be as unique as a fingerprint and really show and emphasize the skills you have going forward?” When I'm hiring people I don't have the time or desire to figure out their individual fingerprints...I need to know they have a core skill set. We live in a world where hundreds of people can apply for a single opening. A position with dozens of applicants is not uncommon. Hiring managers don't have time to sift through 50+ portfolios of self directed learning and lofty goals to figure out who is the right person for the job.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 9:34:47 GMT -5
Seriously, does every graduate in the country of a specific program achieve and display the same competencies?
I think not, having taught with some people who could not do algebra or construct a letter or recommendation.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 9:36:31 GMT -5
Being an accountant, for instance, could still be a certified position, but instead of getting the degree, you pass the competencies and how you manage to do that is your own business.
I actually think companies that will set the example for the future will do things much differently.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Oct 15, 2014 9:38:19 GMT -5
I also think it is quite a bit of nonsense
Lose the Transcript “We now live in a world where you can get any piece of information at any time. What if it wasn’t about information accumulation, but about developing competencies and skills,” Stein Greenberg says of this slightly more vocational proposition, in which students build individualized skill portfolios. “What if a transcript could be as unique as a fingerprint and really show and emphasize the skills you have going forward?”
Just because you can google something doesn't mean that you can understand it, especially in a technical field. I am a chemical engineer. I use Google ALL the time to look up physical and chemical properties. But having the information doesn't do you a bit of good unless you have the uderstanding of what they mean, and that understanding was gained in the chemistry classes that I took in college. This applies to all STEM fields, and others, like accounting and business.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Oct 15, 2014 9:41:48 GMT -5
I don't think everything has to be online. I like this part best: Lose the Transcript “We now live in a world where you can get any piece of information at any time. What if it wasn’t about information accumulation, but about developing competencies and skills,” Stein Greenberg says of this slightly more vocational proposition, in which students build individualized skill portfolios. “What if a transcript could be as unique as a fingerprint and really show and emphasize the skills you have going forward?” I don't think it should be an either/or proposition. There IS value in knowledge for knowledge's sake. I think we need to understand cultural differences and world history and appreciate art in order to move about the world. A mix of knowledge-based and skill-based education creates a better worker-bee, IMHO. There are still purely liberal-arts (knowledge-based) colleges and there are still purely technical (skill-based) colleges for the choosing. But, IMHO, the best colleges deftly blend the two. Fortunately, for those whose personal preference is for a unique, individualized, competency-based education rather than a pre-determined path of courses, there already are schools that offer such an approach. But, these schools tend to be on the very small size and will be faced with even smaller applicant pools down the road. Their sustainability is threatened. I'm not sure how to prevent their loss other than through some big-hearted, deep-pocketed donors.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 15, 2014 9:48:05 GMT -5
Seriously, does every graduate in the country of a specific program achieve and display the same competencies? I think not, having taught with some people who could not do algebra or construct a letter or recommendation. In accounting, substantially yes. A majority of the advanced classes are taught from the same book (at least that's what were were told in the CPA review class). I have this book on my shelf, every one I've ever hired (except for the international students) has laughed and said they have the same book. If someone graduated with an accounting degree I can expect them to know: Table of Contents 1 Financial Accounting and Accounting Standards 2 2 Conceptual Framework for Financial Reporting 42 3 The Accounting Information System 82 and so on... www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-1118147294.htmlNow will everyone have the same level of competencies? Of course not, but I know the basic framwork is there if they've managed to graduate.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 15, 2014 9:49:58 GMT -5
Being an accountant, for instance, could still be a certified position, but instead of getting the degree, you pass the competencies and how you manage to do that is your own business. I actually think companies that will set the example for the future will do things much differently. Isn't that how a cirriculum is designed? Aren't we back to where we are now, but without the individual having to figure it out for themselves?
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Oct 15, 2014 9:50:52 GMT -5
Fortunately, for those whose personal preference is for a unique, individualized, competency-based education rather than a pre-determined path of courses, there already are schools that offer such an approach. But, these schools tend to be on the very small size and will be faced with even smaller applicant pools down the road. Their sustainability is threatened. I'm not sure how to prevent their loss other than through some big-hearted, deep-pocketed donors. Western Governors University is not threatened. Nor is it small. It's also the reason why my state now offers a degree program that is based on competencies. Head folks at my university (a top research institution) were worried about the competition from Western Governors in combination with the political climate of the state.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 9:54:15 GMT -5
And if you want the traditional route, take it. I'm suggesting there are many ways to gain core competencies and the 'traditional' classroom might not be the best way for many, nor do I think it should be the only way.
I certainly think colleges will be changing, radically. It will be interesting to see.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 9:58:33 GMT -5
Not everyone needs a class to understand something.
I looooved my Teaching Math class in college.... He handed out the syllabus first day, when projects were due and test were to be given. He did not require attendance... I showed up to take tests and hand in projects. Never went to another class... Got an A.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Oct 15, 2014 10:08:33 GMT -5
And if you want the traditional route, take it. I'm suggesting there are many ways to gain core competencies and the 'traditional' classroom might not be the best way for many, nor do I think it should be the only way. I certainly think colleges will be changing, radically. It will be interesting to see. We don't necessarily disagree, here, Oped. I just think there should be a number of approaches since there is no one learning style. And, there currently is a wide variety of colleges out there -- I was happily surprised to see how varied a college education now is from school to school. A hundred years ago when I applied to college, one's choices were really limited to just the lecture/assessment model. That's no longer the case. In fact, ODS is likely going to attend a school that leans a little toward individualization within a broader framework -- perfect for him since his hearing issues make perfect recall a challenge in a purely traditional knowledge-based setting (i.e., Wesleyan). But, he does have a large fund of general knowledge and does enjoy learning about knowledge-based areas of inquiry so a school that offers a mix of liberal arts and technical instruction is perfect. My point is, there ARE already colleges to meet almost any learning style/interest so the article in the OP isn't suggesting anything too revolutionary. The number -- and maybe even the variety -- of colleges will likely drop in time. I hope not. But, the shrinking applicant pool suggests it is inevitable. I agree, it WILL be interesting to see.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 10:12:35 GMT -5
And my point is that I don't think 'college' as it exists has to be a necessary component of becoming competent...
I know the attic all says reinventing college, but I think reinventing higher education, or even generally speaking education, or career preparation is probably better.
But some people have a hard time imagining something outside the 4 years of set curriculum, major with transcript, system.
That's ok. But I think it will be changing.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 15, 2014 10:53:38 GMT -5
It isn't just taking longer though... Why wait till 12th grade? ... Running Start is a program that allows 11th and 12th grade students to take college courses at Washington's 34 community and technical colleges, Washington State University, Eastern Washington University, Central Washington University, The Evergreen State College, and Northwest Indian College if the institution's governing board decides to participate in the program. Students earn both high school and college credits for these courses. Running Start students and their families do not pay tuition, but they do pay mandatory fees, buy their own books, and provide their own transportation. Students receive both high school and college credit for these classes, thus accelerating their progress through the education system. www.sbctc.ctc.edu/college/s_runningstart.aspx My ex had students tell her that they were taking English at the local community college because it was easier than her class at the high school. So much for high expectations.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 15, 2014 11:13:49 GMT -5
Being an accountant, for instance, could still be a certified position, but instead of getting the degree, you pass the competencies and how you manage to do that is your own business. I actually think companies that will set the example for the future will do things much differently. So, basically what you're proposing is to work in a particular field, you take a test or otherwise demonstrate the skills needed and get a certificate (or something) showing you have those skills or competencies.
But you're ignoring the convenience of the curriculum. As thecaptain said, a lot of college coursework is pretty standardized. In my field (health physics) there are a few textbooks that everyone knows and everyone has on their shelf. All college courses use these same textbooks. Sure, the editions change, but it's not like atomic theory has changed much since it was discovered.
The problem I see with the model you're proposing is it puts the onus to figure out what courses to take and how to learn on the student. If I wanted to make a career transition and become a nurse, for instance, I'd have no idea where to even start studying without looking at a curriculum and the table of contents of popular nursing textbooks.
You need some order to the madness.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 15, 2014 11:16:28 GMT -5
I thought most HS's had some arrangements with community colleges to allow 11th and 12th graders to take college level courses?
My area of Podunk USA can't be the only place that has it.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 15, 2014 11:45:48 GMT -5
I also think it is quite a bit of nonsense Lose the Transcript “We now live in a world where you can get any piece of information at any time. What if it wasn’t about information accumulation, but about developing competencies and skills,” Stein Greenberg says of this slightly more vocational proposition, in which students build individualized skill portfolios. “What if a transcript could be as unique as a fingerprint and really show and emphasize the skills you have going forward?”Just because you can google something doesn't mean that you can understand it, especially in a technical field. I am a chemical engineer. I use Google ALL the time to look up physical and chemical properties. But having the information doesn't do you a bit of good unless you have the uderstanding of what they mean, and that understanding was gained in the chemistry classes that I took in college. This applies to all STEM fields, and others, like accounting and business. Not only this, but the transcript does tell you what subjects that you *should* have some knowledge in. It doesn't quantify the knowledge, but it would tell you if the person you are interviewing has knowledge of molecule biology, even if they have a botany concentration. Transcripts get you in the door, lacking experience. After you get experience, that trumps a lot.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Oct 15, 2014 11:47:36 GMT -5
I thought most HS's had some arrangements with community colleges to allow 11th and 12th graders to take college level courses?
My area of Podunk USA can't be the only place that has it. My HS had an arrangement with the tiny religious college attached to it where seniors could take college level English. That was early '80s when I was in HS. The culinary degree my mom got at the CC was the same program as that taught in the HS BOCES in late '80s (my cousin did the BOCES program and recommended it to my mom). So, yeah this idea has been around for a while.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Oct 15, 2014 11:54:41 GMT -5
What I'd like better than just the opportunity to take college courses in HS would be the opportunity to zip thru HS (and college) at a faster pace if you want. It is almost impossible to graduate from HS early here, since you have to take four years of gym and English! You would have to double up on those two to graduate early. Excellent students are more likely to try to find more interesting and challenging courses to take, rather than meeting the letter of the rules to graduate early.
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