4 radical ideas for reinventing college

[giramomma]

Oct 15, 2014 11:13:49 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

The problem I see with the model you're proposing is it puts the onus to figure out what courses to take and how to learn on the student. If I wanted to make a career transition and become a nurse, for instance, I'd have no idea where to even start studying without looking at a curriculum and the table of contents of popular nursing textbooks.

You need some order to the madness.

It's not really hard to match up readings to well crafted learning objectives.


One competency might look like this

1) Anatomy and physiology
1a. Identify the 230 bones in a human skeleton
1b. Identify the parts of the circulatory system and and describe how the system works
1c. Identify the parts of the limbic system and describe how the system works

2) "Soft" Skills
2a. Explain what compassionate care is.
2b. Define what ethics is. Provide 2 examples of ethical nursing care and 2 examples of unethical nursing care.

I'm not trying to be snarky, but you seem to be smart enough to figure out that if a competency is to identify the bones in the skeleton, you'd figure out how to obtain a book or video that labels all the bones in a skeleton.

The competency model is saying "Well, if you take an anatomy class at a community college and it covers the same material, and you can prove you know all the bones in the body through the assessments that have been designed and vetted, well, we won't make you sit through the 4 credit course again."




 

[The Captain]

Oct 15, 2014 11:16:28 GMT -5 swamp said:

I thought most HS's had some arrangements with community colleges to allow 11th and 12th graders to take college level courses?

My area of Podunk USA can't be the only place that has it.

DD is too young yet for this but my niece and nephew are older.

Our community college will allow this if there is capacity.  It's called the running start program here as well.  My nephew was able to pick up several credits this way.  My niece not so much so because enrollment had increased so much and she had too many conflicts with her science and math classes.

[Deleted]

But it isn't just about picking up credits early in the same old system...

[Deleted]

The US remains one of the only countries in the world where a Bachelors degree is 4 years ... 

But since higher education is a VERY big business, I can't see universities moving to a 3-year degree anytime soon, unless they are brought there kicking and screaming.

There are some schools that are moving in that direction, though. 

[milee]

Oct 15, 2014 19:02:33 GMT -5 @debthaven2 said:

The US remains one of the only countries in the world where a Bachelors degree is 4 years ... 

That's one of the big reasons we're urging our sons to consider going to at least undergraduate school in the UK. Not only are they slightly less expensive, the degree is complete in 3 years. Makes a huge difference in total cost.

[cronewitch]

I think leaving home is good for youngsters. We just sent off an 18 year old with his AA degree to a college more than 100 miles from home. This will allow his parents to start thinking of him as adult, he will be more confident after having to figure things out. He has a dorm and meal plan so he will be fine but no car. He is studying finance but also meeting new people and trying new things. He will need to take classes he doesn't think are important if it was like when I was in school but they will help him develop as a person. Online classes might teach some material but like living at home a going to CC don't get them to experience new things.

I would love a school to be able to offer each student the classes they need to graduate when they need them. He should need two years but my guess is they won't have his classes and he will take longer mostly waiting. They should schedule the required classes before they start so they can finish on time.

[973beachbum]

My problem is this "new" model starts out requiring, or at least assuming, all kids going to college are totally self motivated.  Man does that not describe almost any teenager I have ever met!

Most teens need some outside pushing to do things like take certain classes, hand in homework and study for tests.  If my kids, and 99% of their friends, were just given the syllabus to a class, they would never actually learn anything, and probably wouldn't start trying until the night before the final exam.

Skipping that part, I really think it is easier to go to college right out of HS simply because it is still fresh in their minds.  I defy anyone here to take a test on something they haven't done in 5 years to pass it.  HS students take algebra I in 9th grade.  College is four years later if they don't take a few years off.  Take a year or three off and it becomes five to seven years later.  The person can be incredibly intelligent and yet fail miserably simply because of the steep learning curve from those extra years out of school.

My Dd is in college to become a HS English teacher.  As it is it will be an almost hurculean thing to graduate in four years I can't imagine what it would be like to try and do it in three!

[teen persuasion]

Oct 16, 2014 8:06:10 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

My problem is this "new" model starts out requiring, or at least assuming, all kids going to college are totally self motivated.  Man does that not describe almost any teenager I have ever met!

Most teens need some outside pushing to do things like take certain classes, hand in homework and study for tests.  If my kids, and 99% of their friends, were just given the syllabus to a class, they would never actually learn anything, and probably wouldn't start trying until the night before the final exam.

Skipping that part, I really think it is easier to go to college right out of HS simply because it is still fresh in their minds.  I defy anyone here to take a test on something they haven't done in 5 years to pass it.  HS students take algebra I in 9th grade.  College is four years later if they don't take a few years off.  Take a year or three off and it becomes five to seven years later.  The person can be incredibly intelligent and yet fail miserably simply because of the steep learning curve from those extra years out of school.

My Dd is in college to become a HS English teacher.  As it is it will be an almost hurculean thing to graduate in four years I can't imagine what it would be like to try and do it in three!

Wouldn't that be at least five years?  You need a master's to teach, at least in my state.

[973beachbum]

Oct 16, 2014 8:48:57 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Oct 16, 2014 8:06:10 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

My problem is this "new" model starts out requiring, or at least assuming, all kids going to college are totally self motivated.  Man does that not describe almost any teenager I have ever met!

Most teens need some outside pushing to do things like take certain classes, hand in homework and study for tests.  If my kids, and 99% of their friends, were just given the syllabus to a class, they would never actually learn anything, and probably wouldn't start trying until the night before the final exam.

Skipping that part, I really think it is easier to go to college right out of HS simply because it is still fresh in their minds.  I defy anyone here to take a test on something they haven't done in 5 years to pass it.  HS students take algebra I in 9th grade.  College is four years later if they don't take a few years off.  Take a year or three off and it becomes five to seven years later.  The person can be incredibly intelligent and yet fail miserably simply because of the steep learning curve from those extra years out of school.

My Dd is in college to become a HS English teacher.  As it is it will be an almost hurculean thing to graduate in four years I can't imagine what it would be like to try and do it in three!

Wouldn't that be at least five years?  You need a master's to teach, at least in my state.

Most students do take five years but you can do it in four it is just really hard.  There also is a ba/ma combined program where you go straight to the masters to teach but you can do it with just a batchelors plus pass the teaching exam.   There was a move to make the masters mandatory but it got pulled back.  Aside from the added costs it was never proven to actually better the teaching in the classroom.  They said the only things that proved to do that were actually being in the classroom and mentoring while in the classroom.

So while I'm all for education, a year of extra school at the graduate level cost would have to be proven to add actual benefit to someone other than the people charging for that year, or the people getting the extra money in their paycheck before it would pass without a serious stink.

[alabamagal]

You also have a lot of kids not making it in 4 years because they need remedial classes.  Also can depend on major, changing schools, other things.  Some fields require that you take classes in a certain order and it could take 4 years if you are on track.  When DS was accounting major, you had to take several classes in order starting your freshman year in order to take your senior level classes (he changed to finance)

DD graduated college in 3 years plus 2 summers in Marine Biology.  She took summer classes at the beach (ok, they were real classes).  Because of the summer classes, normal time is 3 1/2 year, she made it in 3 because of her AP credits.

DS1 will be graduating in Dec, total time 4 1/2 years.  He was undecided his first year, so that delayed him some, and he is double majoring in Finance & Economics.  He also self studied and passed his first 2 actuary exams and will be taking his 3rd.

DS2 is in his 3rd year and will graduate in 4 1/2 or 5.  He started out at a mid-level state school and this year transferred to the top level school and changed major from Accounting to Finance.  The school he is at has one of the top rated business schools in the country, so I think he will be better off.  This is my child who started Kindergarten early, so maybe it all evens out.

heck I took 5 years to graduate.  Started at a top level private school, Biology pre-med, and then transferred to Engineering school.  I had to catch up on Engineering classes and couldn't do it in 2 years due to prerequisites.  Worked out ok for me.

[Deleted]

Oct 16, 2014 8:06:10 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

My problem is this "new" model starts out requiring, or at least assuming, all kids going to college are totally self motivated.  Man does that not describe almost any teenager I have ever met!

Most teens need some outside pushing to do things like take certain classes, hand in homework and study for tests.  If my kids, and 99% of their friends, were just given the syllabus to a class, they would never actually learn anything, and probably wouldn't start trying until the night before the final exam.

Totally agree! Here's DS' path:

1. Went to a military boarding school for HS because he needed structure.

2. Went to well-regarded private university (Drake).  Structure imposed by military school didn't "stick" when he got to college.  About 2 years in he was on academic probation and in danger of being thrown out.

3.  Found Jesus.  No, I'm not kidding.  A resident assistant in the dorm was the son of a pastor and DS got involved in his church.  (I'd raised him Christian but on the more liberal end of the spectrum).  Our amateur theory is that DS found the structure he needed again in that church.  In addition, when DS, DH and I agreed that DS needed therapy the pastor recommended a psychologist who was an absolute treasure.  (DH and I had a conference call with him, paying his usual rate, and he was positive, down-to-earth, and seemed to have figured DS out pretty well.)

4.  Got motivated, finished his degree in 4.5 years, GPA something in the 2.0-2.5 interval.

5.  Got a part-time job in Customer Service at a very good insurance company where a lot of his friends from church worked.  Bless that company.  Within 6 months they brought him on FT, with benefits, and he's been promoted 3 times since then (been there 6 years now). 

NOW, DS says he should have gone to the local community college for a couple of years, then joined the insurance company (apparently they hire people with 2-year degrees) then finished his degree while he worked.

Ummm, yeah.  It would have saved us a bundle, but at 18 he was unable to focus on long-term goals.  It's easy for him now, having gotten to the point of owning a house, having a job he enjoys, and having a lovely wife and child, to see the light at the end of the tunnel because he's there.  He didn't see it at age 18.

Another thought:  I'm taking an entry-level Geology class at the local community college and there are supposed to be 22 students in the class.  On any given day, 10-12 show up.  This includes the Labs, which count towards part of your grade.  I know I'm in a privileged position:  I live very close, I have no work or kid responsibilities and no other classes- but it just boggles my mind that people pay tuition and then don't show up.

[teen persuasion]

Oct 16, 2014 8:59:58 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Oct 16, 2014 8:48:57 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Wouldn't that be at least five years?  You need a master's to teach, at least in my state.

Most students do take five years but you can do it in four it is just really hard.  There also is a ba/ma combined program where you go straight to the masters to teach but you can do it with just a batchelors plus pass the teaching exam.   There was a move to make the masters mandatory but it got pulled back.  Aside from the added costs it was never proven to actually better the teaching in the classroom.  They said the only things that proved to do that were actually being in the classroom and mentoring while in the classroom.

So while I'm all for education, a year of extra school at the graduate level cost would have to be proven to add actual benefit to someone other than the people charging for that year, or the people getting the extra money in their paycheck before it would pass without a serious stink.

Definitely different by state. Here, master's required, so norm is six years, five would be accelerated BS+MSED 4+1.  I don't know of any "teaching test", but you need observation (1 semester) + student teaching (another full semester), do that is one full year right there.  Certification has changed, too. DH was one of the last groups eligible for permanent certification, now it is a temporary.

[thyme4change]

Lose the Transcript

“We now live in a world where you can get any piece of information at any time. What if it wasn't about information accumulation, but about developing competencies and skills,” Stein Greenberg says of this slightly more vocational proposition, in which students build individualized skill portfolios. “What if a transcript could be as unique as a fingerprint and really show and emphasize the skills you have going forward?”

My daughter's school insists they are so superior because they don't give grades.  They give a complicated grid of competencies and weaknesses.  I have no f*#^king idea how she is doing because I have 76 lines of data showing she is all over the board.  Then 2 weeks before school was up the teacher said "Your daughter is going to be moved down a level in English next year because she didn't do well."  Okay - I look at her grid - more competencies than weaknesses, and I still don't understand what happened.  I know half a dozen people who left the school because even though we get the grid every month, the school informed them their child will fail right at the very end.  Maybe there is a better way to communicate, but holy s&&t, if I have to shift through 30 pages of academic jargon to try and figure out what this applicant did in school - for every applicant   - I am ready to punch someone just thinking about it.  Sum it up for me.  If I need more detail, I will ask for it.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

My question about the portfolio thing is how long would it be applicable?    My "portfolio" would now be 10 years out of date.

Would you just keep adding to the thing, mine would equal a novella by now.  Can you imagine how big it'd be in 20 years?

 

I haven't had anyone ask for my transcripts in years, but they were never asked for so I could proved I "learned something".  It was a quick way for potential employers to verify I graduated and do indeed have a biology background.   It's a lot harder to fake transcripts than it is a diploma.

I can't imagine every employer being willing to slog thru hundreds of individualized portfolios attempting to discern if the candidates have achieved proper knowledge in the field they are hiring for.    It's much simpler to take a transcript and see that John took Accounting 101 but Mary did not.

[Angel!]

Oct 15, 2014 9:32:57 GMT -5 oped said:

It isn't just taking longer though... Why wait till 12th grade? Why are we supporting dual systems that reproduce similar classes at high school and college level.

Part of the dual system is that many kids don't take these classes in high school, so they need to be offered in college as well. If you are successful in HS you often don't have to repeat a subject.

I think skill based will be the wave of the future. I like the idea of core competency levels for Algebra II, or Accounting 101... And take the class. Or read the book, or form a study group, whatever, and pass the competency and put it on your transcript. 

Like passing the bar used to be...

Isn't that basically what AP tests are? Then my school had entrance tests in a many subjects so that you could just test out & not have to take low level classes. If you pass the algebra test, then you don't need to take the class. I guess I don't see the skills as much different than the current system in a lot of ways. Maybe allow more tests?

But, then I think tests don't always reflect competency. I am a good test-taker & quick learner.. I can study the night before & pass with flying colors. What I don't do when I do this is retain anything long-term. Then I had a friend in college who would know a subject inside & out (he was usually the one showing me the night before a test what I needed to know), but he was a horrible test-taker. Long term I can guarantee he has more knowledge than me on the topics, but test scores would never reflect that fact.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Another thought: I'm taking an entry-level Geology class at the local community college and there are supposed to be 22 students in the class. On any given day, 10-12 show up. This includes the Labs, which count towards part of your grade. I know I'm in a privileged position: I live very close, I have no work or kid responsibilities and no other classes- but it just boggles my mind that people pay tuition and then don't show up.


I see the same thing in my CAD class I'm taking.  The first day of class, every single one of the 25 computers was in use.  Yesterday, I think that there were maybe 12 in the class.

[Angel!]

Oct 16, 2014 17:04:10 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Another thought: I'm taking an entry-level Geology class at the local community college and there are supposed to be 22 students in the class. On any given day, 10-12 show up. This includes the Labs, which count towards part of your grade. I know I'm in a privileged position: I live very close, I have no work or kid responsibilities and no other classes- but it just boggles my mind that people pay tuition and then don't show up.


I see the same thing in my CAD class I'm taking.  The first day of class, every single one of the 25 computers was in use.  Yesterday, I think that there were maybe 12 in the class.

When you are young you are more focused on the grade than the skill.  There were certain classes I skipped all the time in college, I know I only went to physics on test days.  But, I can learn by reading, which some people can't.  I spent most of highschool & college unbelievable bored sitting through lectures.

[billisonboard]

Oct 16, 2014 17:07:45 GMT -5 Angel! said:

... But, I can learn by reading, which some people can't.  I spent most of highschool & college unbelievable bored sitting through lectures.

I am the opposite. I attended lectures and did little of the reading. I also stopped taking notes. I found that I struggled to spell things and then, when I refocused on the lecture, realized I had missed a bunch. I did, however, have paper and pen out and doodled. It made my professors nervous if I just sat there listening. (This was back in the days before people just recorded the lectures.)

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Oct 16, 2014 17:07:45 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Oct 16, 2014 17:04:10 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Another thought: I'm taking an entry-level Geology class at the local community college and there are supposed to be 22 students in the class. On any given day, 10-12 show up. This includes the Labs, which count towards part of your grade. I know I'm in a privileged position: I live very close, I have no work or kid responsibilities and no other classes- but it just boggles my mind that people pay tuition and then don't show up.


I see the same thing in my CAD class I'm taking.  The first day of class, every single one of the 25 computers was in use.  Yesterday, I think that there were maybe 12 in the class.

When you are young you are more focused on the grade than the skill.  There were certain classes I skipped all the time in college, I know I only went to physics on test days.  But, I can learn by reading, which some people can't.  I spent most of highschool & college unbelievable bored sitting through lectures.

Nope, when I did my undergrad I skipped very few classes there too, and most of my classes had a lab associated with it that you used the things that you learned in class and translated them to an experience.  And as my CAD class is a skill you are acquiring, it's really not something you can learn out of a book.  You need to be sitting in front of one of the computers performing the tasks as well.

[Angel!]

Oct 16, 2014 17:16:02 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Oct 16, 2014 17:07:45 GMT -5 Angel! said:

When you are young you are more focused on the grade than the skill.  There were certain classes I skipped all the time in college, I know I only went to physics on test days.  But, I can learn by reading, which some people can't.  I spent most of highschool & college unbelievable bored sitting through lectures.

Nope, when I did my undergrad I skipped very few classes there too.  And as my CAD class is a skill you are acquiring, it's really not something you can learn out of a book.  You need to be sitting in front of one of the computers performing the tasks as well.

Maybe I should have said "when many people are young".  Of course there are many exceptions. 

CAD I could see needing to attend, unless you already knew it & the class was moving very slowly.  In retrospect I am kind of surprised we didn't have a CAD class.  We covered it a tiny bit in the freshmen year of engineering.  Seems like there should have been more focus there.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

I've been calling CAD Etch-a-Sketch for adults.  

When I can get the computer to work the way I want it to, it's awesome.  When it doesn't, I can't remember ever being so frustrated at something!

[teen persuasion]

Oct 16, 2014 16:26:16 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Oct 15, 2014 9:32:57 GMT -5 oped said:

It isn't just taking longer though... Why wait till 12th grade? Why are we supporting dual systems that reproduce similar classes at high school and college level.

Part of the dual system is that many kids don't take these classes in high school, so they need to be offered in college as well. If you are successful in HS you often don't have to repeat a subject.

I think skill based will be the wave of the future. I like the idea of core competency levels for Algebra II, or Accounting 101... And take the class. Or read the book, or form a study group, whatever, and pass the competency and put it on your transcript. 

Like passing the bar used to be...

Isn't that basically what AP tests are? Then my school had entrance tests in a many subjects so that you could just test out & not have to take low level classes. If you pass the algebra test, then you don't need to take the class. I guess I don't see the skills as much different than the current system in a lot of ways. Maybe allow more tests?

But, then I think tests don't always reflect competency. I am a good test-taker & quick learner.. I can study the night before & pass with flying colors. What I don't do when I do this is retain anything long-term. Then I had a friend in college who would know a subject inside & out (he was usually the one showing me the night before a test what I needed to know), but he was a horrible test-taker. Long term I can guarantee he has more knowledge than me on the topics, but test scores would never reflect that fact.

I wish we could just test out of taking classes!  That would be great.  Unfortunately, I don't think it is possible here, especially with science classes.  Labs are required, you cannot take the Regents without having all the labs submitted; this has been an ongoing problem with the Chem teacher who seems to lose student labs regularly, so that some students have to scramble to redo their labs that disappeared.

More jobs seem to require degrees rather than just relevant experience or competencies.  We are going to run into this soon at my library.  None of us, including the director, have a library degree, but the state at some point made it mandatory for directors at the least to have one.  Our director was grandfathered in, with the understanding that when she retired her replacement would need the degree.  Unfortunately, no one got that in writing from the politician at the time, and he has left office in disgrace.  I have looked into the courses for the degree, but it seems most of the topics I have learned on the job.  The cost of obtaining the degree would not increase my pay, our small rural library budget doesn't stretch that far.  The current degree model doesn't allow for testing out of unnecessary courses, they want you to take all the required courses at full tuition.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Unfortunately, I don't think it is possible here, especially with science classes. Labs are required, you cannot take the Regents without having all the labs submitted; this has been an ongoing problem with the Chem teacher who seems to lose student labs regularly, so that some students have to scramble to redo their labs that disappeared.


You can test out of some of the first level classes.  My niece and nephew have done that for Biology and Physics, not sure about whether either of them proficiencied out of Chemistry.

My niece who started college this fall graduated HS with nearly a full year of college credit.  I think that she calculated that she could graduate in 3 years for her marketing degree but she was going to have difficulty if she combined it with a double major in Spanish....I think she needed 3.5 years.

[Deleted]

Who said competencies come without knowledge?  However knowledge and competencies can come without college. 

I guess its not a stretch for me because we've been doing it. We have portfolios and they have been an easy mix of traditional and not so traditional learning opportunities. Son has never set foot in a classroom, yet managed to proficient in bio and advanced in Algebra on the state tests of competencies in those subjects. 

If high school is going to a # of hours plus pass 6-8 core capacities I see a lot more people not going. I could have done that in about half the time personally. I did get my teaching BS in 3.5 even switching majors, and would have been done in 3 if I knew about summer classes earlier. And that working up to 30 hours a week. Which taught me just as much, if not more, than college ever did..

[giramomma]

Oct 17, 2014 0:23:56 GMT -5 oped said:

 And that working up to 30 hours a week. Which taught me just as much, if not more, than college ever did..

This so much. For me it wasn't work as much as it was my extra activities.

I'd love to move into arts management someday. I don't need a Master's degree. My undergraduate combination does JUST fine. When I was in college a friend and I put on concerts yearly, wrote (and won) grants, arranged everything from start to finish.

I wish there would have been a mechanism for me to explain all the skills I got from this experience. Because my degree didn't do it. And neither did the crap jobs I held. There were no such thing as portfolios when I went to college.

The teaching at one of my jobs has been replaced with helping out with finances. I'm helping out with grants, donation thank you letters,  I'm also learning quickbooks and eventually will be in charge of payroll and budgeting. A portfolio would be fabulous to demonstrate these skills that I'm picking up, especially since I'm not sure if any of this will actually be paid experience.

I also have one article published in a respected music journal. I really should put that in a portfolio vs on my resume. I never know where to put *that,* since being that article has nothing to do with any of my current job duties right now.

[973beachbum]

Oct 16, 2014 11:39:25 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Oct 16, 2014 8:59:58 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Most students do take five years but you can do it in four it is just really hard.  There also is a ba/ma combined program where you go straight to the masters to teach but you can do it with just a batchelors plus pass the teaching exam.   There was a move to make the masters mandatory but it got pulled back.  Aside from the added costs it was never proven to actually better the teaching in the classroom.  They said the only things that proved to do that were actually being in the classroom and mentoring while in the classroom.

So while I'm all for education, a year of extra school at the graduate level cost would have to be proven to add actual benefit to someone other than the people charging for that year, or the people getting the extra money in their paycheck before it would pass without a serious stink.

Definitely different by state. Here, master's required, so norm is six years, five would be accelerated BS+MSED 4+1.  I don't know of any "teaching test", but you need observation (1 semester) + student teaching (another full semester), do that is one full year right there.  Certification has changed, too. DH was one of the last groups eligible for permanent certification, now it is a temporary.

www.ets.org/praxis/states

It is in almost every state.  I would think that the one or two that don't have something else instead, and not nothing. If they didn't I can't imagine how hard it would be for teachers trying to switch states with their lisence.  As it is I doubt most states would even look at an applicant until after they had passed the praxis. 

The rest of what you said with observation and student teaching is the same in every state I have seen.  They still manage to do it in 4 years though.  Although some do do the 4+1 for a masters instead.  The rest of the requirements are the same though whether they do the masters or the BA/BS.

[teen persuasion]

Oct 17, 2014 7:17:43 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Oct 16, 2014 11:39:25 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Definitely different by state. Here, master's required, so norm is six years, five would be accelerated BS+MSED 4+1.  I don't know of any "teaching test", but you need observation (1 semester) + student teaching (another full semester), do that is one full year right there.  Certification has changed, too. DH was one of the last groups eligible for permanent certification, now it is a temporary.

www.ets.org/praxis/states

It is in almost every state.  I would think that the one or two that don't have something else instead, and not nothing. If they didn't I can't imagine how hard it would be for teachers trying to switch states with their lisence.  As it is I doubt most states would even look at an applicant until after they had passed the praxis. 

The rest of what you said with observation and student teaching is the same in every state I have seen.  They still manage to do it in 4 years though.  Although some do do the 4+1 for a masters instead.  The rest of the requirements are the same though whether they do the masters or the BA/BS.

Looks like my state only uses praxis for one test: Speech & Language Pathology.  The state has its own set of content area tests, though; those are part of the certification process. Somehow that is not quite what I thought you meant by "teaching test".  I apologize if I misunderstood.

[973beachbum]

No problem it was my fault for thinking it was used everywhere.  The teachers talk about it like lawyers do the bar exam.  You have to pass the praxis to teach.  And it is used so widely around this end of the country, I didn't realize there were states that didn't use it.

This does sound like something that could make it hard to switch states with your license though.  With people so mobile today I would think states would be working towards having the same standards in all of them.   And I don't actually care which standards they are.  I'm sure they are all high enough for someone to teach with.  Any shortfalls IMO have more to do with working with people type of things than content issues. 

So why does every state have it own wheel?  Wouldn't it be easier to just have one wheel that everyone uses?   Is teaching algebra in Oregon really different than in Pennsylvania?

[teen persuasion]

Oct 17, 2014 8:32:22 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

No problem it was my fault for thinking it was used everywhere.  The teachers talk about it like lawyers do the bar exam.  You have to pass the praxis to teach.  And it is used so widely around this end of the country, I didn't realize there were states that didn't use it.

This does sound like something that could make it hard to switch states with your license though.  With people so mobile today I would think states would be working towards having the same standards in all of them.   And I don't actually care which standards they are.  I'm sure they are all high enough for someone to teach with.  Any shortfalls IMO have more to do with working with people type of things than content issues. 

So why does every state have it own wheel?  Wouldn't it be easier to just have one wheel that everyone uses?   Is teaching algebra in Oregon really different than in Pennsylvania?

Cuz our wheel is better, dammit!

Poking around on my state's link, the is mention of reciprocal relationships allowing you to teach in other states.  Anecdotally, our state's teaching grads are sought after by other states due to our higher standards, and many new grads are forced to relocate to other states to get teaching experience.  Teaching jobs are notoriously difficult to get into here.  I got to know a family that moved to the area from SD, and she was a science teacher.  They lived here a year, and she could not find an opening anywhere.  Her former school was willing to rehire her if they returned.  They eventually moved to Arizona to follow the DH's job.  She had a teaching job in three days there.

[thyme4change]

but now - companies are looking for a 4 year degree for their assistants.

My theory for why so many jobs are asking for a degree, is because a college degree does prove something.  It proves you will follow the procedure, jump through the hoops, check all the boxes and do what you are told.  You can't graduate without getting the list of requirements and taking all the classes you need to satisfy that list of requirements.  Corporations need a lot of people that can follow instructions and work the process until the job is done.  

If high school is going to a # of hours plus pass 6-8 core capacities I see a lot more people not going. I could have done that in about half the time personally. I did get my teaching BS in 3.5 even switching majors, and would have been done in 3 if I knew about summer classes earlier. And that working up to 30 hours a week. Which taught me just as much, if not more, than college ever did..

I understand that most intelligent and hard working people could burn through the necessities of high school and college in half the time.  But why?  I knew a guy who started medical school at 16 years old because he was so brilliant.  And he had huge regrets.  You have decades to work - many decades.  Why fly through?  Plenty of perfectly successful people graduated high school at 18, and college at 22 or even 23 and still went on to have a 42 year career.  No big whoop if they had shaved off a year or two and had a 44 year career.