djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 29, 2014 23:22:15 GMT -5
Non-resistance is NOT consent. Keep asserting it is, but it isn't going to make you right. My comparison was a bit tongue-in-cheek to demonstrate the utter stupidity of that assertion, but it's still valid. Don't like it? Too bad. Trying to reason with you is like trying to talk to a brick wall. You are a man who admits he sees nothing wrong with giving a woman a smack if she deserves it and now you assert that it's perfectly fine to force yourself on a woman if she doesn't fight you tooth and nail. Have a party all by yourself, Paul. Cause I'm not playing anymore. Steff is right. This is downright creepy. i think she meant "yourself" in the sense of "oneself", but simply asking would clear that up. GEL is one of the most honorable people on the board, Paul- and generally sympathetic to the conservative side of the argument. as such, i think you are burning bridges with a natural ally to not assume the best of her in this situation. |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 29, 2014 23:24:59 GMT -5
The post where I asserted anything of the sort will be produced, or it is defamatory. Remember, my real name is known here by many. I'm not going to be libeled here or anywhere else. Not my problem. Why is your real name known here, paul? Whose decision was that? Furthermore, where was ToS broken? It wasn't, that's where. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 29, 2014 23:27:40 GMT -5
i guess i am lucky, but i have only been told "no" once. it is really not something you need to ask, if you are half as much in tune with your partner as you are with yourself. but i guess that is a problem for some people. The vast majority of my bad experiences were when I was in my teens and the guys were too. While you could chalk it up to teens - I'm still talking 18/19. that was when i got my one "NO".  BUT - I've still gotten it from guys in my later 20s. Not that they kept going when I said no, but they kept bugging with a "come on" "are you sure" "you really sure". As a person, I don't think they're bad or horrible. But I do firmly blame it on society that in the past I've had to repeatedly confirm a "no" to them. Like guys are conditioned to not accept the first no. And that scares me for other girls/women that aren't sure enough to say no for a second time. yeah, that takes a lot of conviction- more that most guys have. |
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 29, 2014 23:29:01 GMT -5
"Participating willingly" is such a fucked up level of what consent is I don't know if I can even explain it. The number of guys out there who think girls just "tough it out" through sex and just "lay there like a fish" are outstanding. So to those guys a girl not fighting back (like a lot of organizations/etc suggest after saying no doesn't work) or just laying there after fighting didn't work is to them a "consent". Which it's not. I think most schools of thought say that if they don't respond to NO and STOP right off the bat your best chance for staying alive is to stop fighting. Which plays right into the whole "they're not fighting they're consenting". Personally I'd rather die fighting then live with not fighting, but I also realize that I'm a stubborn son of a bitch. Not everyone is like that. If they don't respond to "no" and "stop" then we can presume that everything after that is rape, and your response-- to offer resistance or not-- is just your means of surviving the assault. So, let's not move forward from this post as if I implied not offering resistance to clear cut rape is "consent", shall we? The bottom line is this- assuming you were not attacked, you're with someone you know, you willingly start down the road towards sex, you never offer a "no" or a "stop", and you don't resist in any way, or give any other indication you're not down with what's going on-- I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to agree with mmhmm on this one. That's consensual sex you just had there. To be blunt - the problem IS "the road to sex". The fact that it exists. That if you do A then B is expected and you have to make a big fireworks announcement that B is not allowed even though A was. My point, and one of the biggest problems with rape/not rape, is that guys are conditioned and told that NO just means "try harder". Because I've fucking lived it. I have straight out told guys "you can spend the night as long as you realized we're not having sex and it's not on the table" literally word for word and once they get in my place they start pushing for sex. Literally and explicitly. Yes, some of that could be the guys I've dated are just assholes. But explain why the accepted my terms of "you can come in but no sex" saying that WORD FOR WORD but them coming in and trying to change the terms. THAT is the problem. The fact that I have explicitly said NO SEX in a non compromised positions and yet more often then not they don't take what I say at face value. Yeah, you could say I should just turn them away. But silly me for thinking that when I set clear rules with an adult that they accept that they'd actually keep it. Spoiler alert - some guys can. And, shocker, the guy who was best at it in most recent history had a daughter. |
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 29, 2014 23:34:01 GMT -5
The vast majority of my bad experiences were when I was in my teens and the guys were too. While you could chalk it up to teens - I'm still talking 18/19. that was when i got my one "NO". BUT - I've still gotten it from guys in my later 20s. Not that they kept going when I said no, but they kept bugging with a "come on" "are you sure" "you really sure". As a person, I don't think they're bad or horrible. But I do firmly blame it on society that in the past I've had to repeatedly confirm a "no" to them. Like guys are conditioned to not accept the first no. And that scares me for other girls/women that aren't sure enough to say no for a second time. yeah, that takes a lot of conviction- more that most guys have. Unfortunately in my age I've realized that if it's a resounding NO on my part I have to send the guy away before anything gets close to that. But I still argue the problem is that most guys don't immediately shirk away at the word no. It's honestly the biggest turn off for me, when they can't accept the first no. Crossed out guys I've really liked otherwise. Hell, one guy I currently like has gotten to that point. It's not so much that he wants to (that's always good) but the whole not respecting me and what I say that's the issue. |
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Sept 29, 2014 23:40:54 GMT -5
Non-resistance is NOT consent. Keep asserting it is, but it isn't going to make you right. My comparison was a bit tongue-in-cheek to demonstrate the utter stupidity of that assertion, but it's still valid. Don't like it? Too bad. Trying to reason with you is like trying to talk to a brick wall. You are a man who admits he sees nothing wrong with giving a woman a smack if she deserves it and now you assert that it's perfectly fine to force yourself on a woman if she doesn't fight you tooth and nail. Have a party all by yourself, Paul. Cause I'm not playing anymore. Steff is right. This is downright creepy. i think she meant "yourself" in the sense of "oneself", but simply asking would clear that up. GEL is one of the most honorable people on the board, Paul- and generally sympathetic to the conservative side of the argument. as such, i think you are burning bridges with a natural ally to not assume the best of her in this situation. Thank you, dj. You are correct. I should have said "oneself" instead of "yourself". I do not know Paul. I certainly didn't mean to imply HE would do such a thing, but rather he had posted that silence and lack of resistance are implied consent. Example: I don't know you, Paul. I don't know what you would do or what you would not do. I do know what you posted and that is what I was responding to. I do apologize if you took it to mean that I thought YOU, personally, would force yourself on a woman. That still doesn't detract from the fact that you have a skewed and totally wrong view of what consent actually consists of and I will not apologize for being offended and stunned that there are still people in this world who think that way. |
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Sept 29, 2014 23:55:01 GMT -5
No YOU compared "no one wants to be robbed" and "women WANT to have sex". Rape and having sex are two DRASTICALLY different things. Yes. She was. In response to mmhmm: Keep that in mind if you are ever being robbed at gunpoint. If you don't scream your head off and don't try to kick him in the balls, you secretly want to get robbed and are, therefore, giving consent to be robbed. If you do as you are told, hoping to not get shot, you are just asking for it, lady! Why do I let this stuff raise my BP? Now I have a headache. She brought in the idea of robbery (something that NO PERSON WANTS) to compare it with something that MANY people want (sex). Misunderstand if it makes you happy. Richard, you obviously did not understand the point she was trying to make at all. She wasn't comparing sex to robbery. And unlike you she isn't making a statement that most people want sex. (That really has no relevance in a discussion about rape which is generally about control and power. The sex act is at best secondary.)
I think the reason you know so many people who have been falsely accused or said they accused falsely is perhaps you are too afraid to learn the truth of the statistics. Most rapes are committed by people known by the victim. (Male and female, I've been reading some horrible stuff about guys victimized at elite boarding schools.  )
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 29, 2014 23:56:00 GMT -5
Not in so many words, but they left room- indeed, you left room- for ambiguity in your posts which is what Richard pointed out. I'm glad you've finally cleared it up and stated precisely what I stated when we started going back and forth at reply #65. Sooooooo many words is YOUR playground. One word is the definition of rape and that word is NO. What the fuck is so hard to understand about that  If a woman is not bruised, bleeding, half dead and dying it's not rape. OK. Got it. She also can't get pregnant, yada yada. And of course, every woman is out to "get" every man by withdrawing permission after the fact and crying RAPE!!!!!!!!! Or steal your money, or envies that special little penis, or whatev. Oh, I must be a feminazi. Well, call me Eva Braun!  I get a total Rush off of that, ya know? What sort of world do some of you men live in? It's gotta be scary in there. And, this is just a guess mind you, a lot of women don't wanna live there. Just sayin'.  And the bold is the worst point. Ideally, in a perfect world I should have been able to report the guy who woke me up by forcing my hand to grab his junk (when I was completely sober and it was a guy I had known for several months). But I knew perfectly well that it was a "light" assault (didn't progress to rape) and the fact that I willingly stayed there (after his insistence of not wanting me to drive home and then walk home by myself at that hour) the chance of it going anywhere were slim to not. Honestly, to this day if I think too hard about it I feel like shit because he could have done something worse than what he did to me, but the backlash from the police and if it went to trial kept me from reporting a "minor" assault. |
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Sept 30, 2014 0:01:23 GMT -5
If the person who's in the position to give consent actually gives consent and participates willingly, no rape has been committed. If that person later asserts no consent was given, that person is in the wrong. Nobody has said otherwise. We've been talking about situations in which consent WAS NOT GIVEN. What is it about that you're having trouble grasping? Well, see there's still ambiguity here because you say "gives consent" AND participates willingly. I'm saying participates willingly IS consent. There doesn't HAVE TO BE A "Do you want to have sex?" followed by a "yes, let's do it" for sex to be consensual. Otherwise, we'd have to assume that resistance without an actual "No" is not no. Actions do count. There does need to be an indicator that both parties consent as they move through various sexual activities onto actual sex - intercourse or otherwise.
Without that consent, verbal or non-verbal, one can be just like a pedophile who takes advantage of the youth of his victim(s) because they might not resist. The big difference sadly then, would be that the person would be a legal adult versus a legal child.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Sept 30, 2014 0:17:24 GMT -5
Well, then you're wrong. Never heard the story of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf"? You pull the fire alarm every day at random times, people stop responding to the fire alarm. How do you know false accusations are not that common? I agree with you that it is likely that most cases of rape that are reported have merit, but I have no data- and you supplied no data to back up the assertion that false accusations are not that common. Further, to the accused, it doesn't matter if he was the only one that year, now does it? S peaking of common- the various forms of rape feminists spend most of their time wringing their hands over are not that common. Certainly not as common as claimed. And you're correct- thinking people do...behave accordingly. They are not stupid. And that's why most of the bullshit about "rape culture" goes in one ear and out the other. You may not agree, but in my opinion, the author is right on. The smartest thing for a woman- or really anyone to do- is to stay relatively sober, develop better situational awareness, and employ safety measures like the buddy system. It's very difficult to grab two women off the street, now isn't it? There's a "form" of rape that feminists DON'T spend their time worrying over? Really? And it's most common? I always thought feminists, or rather women in generally and hopefully at one point all men worry against all types of rape. Might be far fetched, but hey - I'm a dreamer. Really. Its like Dayum...
Maybe he's going to come out all pro-male on male rape too. Those pansy-asses in jail want it, and if those guys in boarding school just traveled in packs the headmaster and other teachers wouldn't be raping them...
  
I guess he didn't read or watch the movie Kite-runner(?) either. Two male children versus more male children in a gang -> one male child being raped with other male observers in attendance.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 30, 2014 1:03:59 GMT -5
Is it ironic or just sad that the cries against the 'concept of rape culture' only continue to prove its existence... much like the discussions of racism we have on this board, it makes me realize how far we really have to go. It is interesting the different people you meet on a message board. Or maybe it is just people are more willing to be honest when IRL they know they would get judged. You can't be too surprised though...these are the same guys that said whats-his-name was just defending himself. Apparently a woman just can't be a victim in their eyes. Seems a very misogynistic view. Kind of OT, but I mentioned to several male coworkers that I knew some people that believed it was self-defense. They were shocked anyone could believe that. And now that I have gone OT I just want to add...why are you guys even trying? Someone that somehow believes that rape is a non-issue and we should be more concerned with beheadings at the workplace isn't going to ever have a rational post on this topic. All it is going to do is rile you up more and more. I understand it, because honestly how could anyone be so thickheaded to say some of this shit? But a few seem to be. So I suggest if it makes you angry, don't reply and just walk away from the thread. Or reply to DJ who seems very rational and probably is more representative of the average male than the ones you are arguing with. Just my 2 cents. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 2:10:41 GMT -5
Deleted because it was childish.
But it was kinda funny. No fair... I didn't get to see it. I LIKE funny-childish. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 2:18:35 GMT -5
i guess i am lucky, but i have only been told "no" once. it is really not something you need to ask, if you are half as much in tune with your partner as you are with yourself. but i guess that is a problem for some people. The vast majority of my bad experiences were when I was in my teens and the guys were too. While you could chalk it up to teens - I'm still talking 18/19. BUT - I've still gotten it from guys in my later 20s. Not that they kept going when I said no, but they kept bugging with a "come on" "are you sure" "you really sure". As a person, I don't think they're bad or horrible. But I do firmly blame it on society that in the past I've had to repeatedly confirm a "no" to them. Like guys are conditioned to not accept the first no. And that scares me for other girls/women that aren't sure enough to say no for a second time. Just out of curiosity has it occurred to you that guys are "conditioned" to keep going because women make them keep going? And I'm not talking about women that "finally give in". I'm talking about women that KNOW they will give in, ahead of time, and want to give in, but only after they "make the guy earn it". |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 30, 2014 2:28:48 GMT -5
The vast majority of my bad experiences were when I was in my teens and the guys were too. While you could chalk it up to teens - I'm still talking 18/19. BUT - I've still gotten it from guys in my later 20s. Not that they kept going when I said no, but they kept bugging with a "come on" "are you sure" "you really sure". As a person, I don't think they're bad or horrible. But I do firmly blame it on society that in the past I've had to repeatedly confirm a "no" to them. Like guys are conditioned to not accept the first no. And that scares me for other girls/women that aren't sure enough to say no for a second time. Just out of curiosity has it occurred to you that guys are "conditioned" to keep going because women make them keep going? And I'm not talking about women that "finally give in". I'm talking about women that KNOW they will give in, ahead of time, and want to give in, but only after they "make the guy earn it". Are you kidding me? We're not talking about Pavlov's dogs here. We're talking about human beings, with minds. They can think and make decisions based on logic. "Conditioned"? Really? Give me a break! As I said before, perhaps it's the people you hang with.  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 2:40:02 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity has it occurred to you that guys are "conditioned" to keep going because women make them keep going? And I'm not talking about women that "finally give in". I'm talking about women that KNOW they will give in, ahead of time, and want to give in, but only after they "make the guy earn it". Are you kidding me? We're not talking about Pavlov's dogs here. We're talking about human beings, with minds. They can think and make decisions based on logic. "Conditioned"? Really? Give me a break! As I said before, perhaps it's the people you hang with. Could be the people I used to hang out with... I'll grant you that. Most of them were women (I have worked in places that were predominately staffed with female employees, and co-workers are a high percentage of people I "hung out" with.). I take it by your scorn you've never come across women that "make the guys earn it". |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 30, 2014 2:58:28 GMT -5
Not to my knowledge, Richard. I don't spend a lot of time prying into (or worrying about) other people's relationships, though. I just have more faith in people of both genders than it would appear you have. I give men credit for more sense than to be subject to that sort of "conditioning", and I give women credit for more sense than to try that sort of nonsense. Maybe as teens when they don't know their tails from their eyebrows, but not once they've become adults.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Sept 30, 2014 3:56:57 GMT -5
BS. It can't be that rare.. I personally know of two instances. One was my brother, the other was a former female friend that bragged about her false accusation years after she had done it (she did it before I knew her, and bragged about it several years later). Maybe it's the people you hang around with. In 72 years on the planet, I know of no case of this, personally. It happened to my youngest brother. He was taken to the police station and grilled by a detective for 5 hours. The detective came out and told my mom that there was no doubt in his mind that the sex was consensual and she only accused my brother of rape because her boyfriend found out and she didn't want to admit that she cheated on him with a guy she met at a party. Every aspect of my brothers version of events checked out, and the accuser had several inconsistancies in hers. That said, if her dad had been golfing buddies with the DA or police chief, my brother probably would have been facing charges. How often it happens, I don't know, but it's probably less rare than the rape culture crusaders wish it was. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 5:38:10 GMT -5
There are false accusations in all crime. Nowhere else do you question all victims because of the low percentage of false reports. Nowhere else is the actul crime so underreported.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 30, 2014 5:51:58 GMT -5
FYI, the pattern jury instructions for rape trials in NY specifically say that there does not have to be resistance for it to be rape.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 30, 2014 7:35:52 GMT -5
Why debate labels like "rape culture"? It's sufficient to characterize a society by actions and consequences.
If a woman engages in behaviours such as drinking, partying, provocative dress, sexual flirting, etc., she increases her likelihood of being raped. In past threads I've posted articles and whitepapers quantifying these correlations.
Since this is the unyielding reality in which we live, my advice has always been to avoid these behaviours. Reality doesn't care whether a sexual encounter is rape or not, nor does a busy highway care whether a man intends on getting safely across or not. The risks and consequences are known. Those who engage in the risks suffer the consequences.
Since the legal definition of rape isn't in flux insofar as I'm aware, what profit is there in assigning moral blame post factum? If I were criminally victimized, the surest way to tell whether I considered myself blameworthy would be to observe whether I amended my behaviours as a result of the crime. For example, if I began avoiding dark alleys after being mugged in one, this would be a rather obvious acknowledgement of the risks of walking through dark alleys. I suspect that a legion of well-wishers assuring me "the mugging wasn't your fault; you did nothing wrong" still wouldn't compel me to walk through a dark alley again. I've moved beyond idealism to reality.
The backlash against the "rape culture" label is likely motivated by the public's tendency to commute "you are not to blame" to "you should be able to engage in behaviour X consequence-free" to "you can engage in behaviour X consequence-free", where this third implication is demonstrably false. In other words, in our haste to console victims of crimes, we inadvertently sanction behaviours that lead to more victimization.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 8:21:28 GMT -5
No, the backlash has always been there. Long before the phrase rape culture existed women were told they wouldn't have been raped if they hadn't been wearing that, drinking that, at that party, walking in that part of town, unmarried, had their ankles showing or looked that man in the eye. Or they have been told it wasn't rape because they wanted it, they didn't say no loudly enough, or soon enough or you can't expect a guy to stop now! The condition existed long before the name for it.
Believe me, no one has EVER ignored the idea of false allegations. Every allegation ever made has been labelled a false allegation. Feminists screaming about the rape culture and insisting it stop is a backlash to how our culture dismisses rape of women as a serious crime worthy of punishment. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 8:24:34 GMT -5
BTW Hannah Graham is still missing and they think the guy that took her murdered at least 2 other women.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 30, 2014 8:52:11 GMT -5
BTW Hannah Graham is still missing and they think the guy that took her murdered at least 2 other women. I've been following that, later. If things are as they sound like they are, this guy is a menace who belongs under the jail! |
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Sept 30, 2014 8:58:58 GMT -5
The vast majority of my bad experiences were when I was in my teens and the guys were too. While you could chalk it up to teens - I'm still talking 18/19. BUT - I've still gotten it from guys in my later 20s. Not that they kept going when I said no, but they kept bugging with a "come on" "are you sure" "you really sure". As a person, I don't think they're bad or horrible. But I do firmly blame it on society that in the past I've had to repeatedly confirm a "no" to them. Like guys are conditioned to not accept the first no. And that scares me for other girls/women that aren't sure enough to say no for a second time. Just out of curiosity has it occurred to you that guys are "conditioned" to keep going because women make them keep going? And I'm not talking about women that "finally give in". I'm talking about women that KNOW they will give in, ahead of time, and want to give in, but only after they "make the guy earn it". What kind of sick game playing people do you know? I realize that could be worded nicer, but hell no I do not know anyone like that.
While I have discovered many male engineers are less socially adept than their peers say in marketing or business, thankfully none that I know would ever do some of the dumb assery that is talked about here.
In fact they don't follow the belief that men can't control themselves either, that they will get swept up in the moment ... that if they desire you, you can always get them to have sex with you. So not true. They seem to have iron like control and will just like myself. Apparently we were all brought up with the idea you could control yourself in spite of the fact many come from different states and even countries than I do.
You really should try to hang with a better class of people. Get a belief system upgrade. If there is a Landmark Forum near you, sign up post haste for the beginning course. There you will learn and know important things like what you say is about you and what I say is about me.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Sept 30, 2014 9:08:21 GMT -5
The vast majority of my bad experiences were when I was in my teens and the guys were too. While you could chalk it up to teens - I'm still talking 18/19. BUT - I've still gotten it from guys in my later 20s. Not that they kept going when I said no, but they kept bugging with a "come on" "are you sure" "you really sure". As a person, I don't think they're bad or horrible. But I do firmly blame it on society that in the past I've had to repeatedly confirm a "no" to them. Like guys are conditioned to not accept the first no. And that scares me for other girls/women that aren't sure enough to say no for a second time. Just out of curiosity has it occurred to you that guys are "conditioned" to keep going because women make them keep going? And I'm not talking about women that "finally give in". I'm talking about women that KNOW they will give in, ahead of time, and want to give in, but only after they "make the guy earn it". I'm old fashioned. I admit it. But dang. All this sounds about as romantic as picking ticks off dogs. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 9:10:22 GMT -5
The vast majority of my bad experiences were when I was in my teens and the guys were too. While you could chalk it up to teens - I'm still talking 18/19. BUT - I've still gotten it from guys in my later 20s. Not that they kept going when I said no, but they kept bugging with a "come on" "are you sure" "you really sure". As a person, I don't think they're bad or horrible. But I do firmly blame it on society that in the past I've had to repeatedly confirm a "no" to them. Like guys are conditioned to not accept the first no. And that scares me for other girls/women that aren't sure enough to say no for a second time. Just out of curiosity has it occurred to you that guys are "conditioned" to keep going because women make them keep going? And I'm not talking about women that "finally give in". I'm talking about women that KNOW they will give in, ahead of time, and want to give in, but only after they "make the guy earn it". Wow, another way to blame women for men's behaviour. Amazing. |
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zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,914
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 30, 2014 9:14:23 GMT -5
I've heard that same thing. I realize a lot of people hate, and maybe with good reason, surveillance, but that camera found that creep. I'm grateful.
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Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 64,919
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 30, 2014 9:26:00 GMT -5
this can't be real....not in this day and age....there just can't be people who still think like this.  Someone needs to fess up. Which one of you posters forced Paul, yes FORCED paul, into posting this Facebook snap shot where Paul's real name is exposed for all of us to see and know. Would the culprit please step forward and announce yourself, damn it. This is an outrage. Outrage I say. |
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justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
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Post by justme on Sept 30, 2014 10:17:52 GMT -5
The vast majority of my bad experiences were when I was in my teens and the guys were too. While you could chalk it up to teens - I'm still talking 18/19. BUT - I've still gotten it from guys in my later 20s. Not that they kept going when I said no, but they kept bugging with a "come on" "are you sure" "you really sure". As a person, I don't think they're bad or horrible. But I do firmly blame it on society that in the past I've had to repeatedly confirm a "no" to them. Like guys are conditioned to not accept the first no. And that scares me for other girls/women that aren't sure enough to say no for a second time. Just out of curiosity has it occurred to you that guys are "conditioned" to keep going because women make them keep going? And I'm not talking about women that "finally give in". I'm talking about women that KNOW they will give in, ahead of time, and want to give in, but only after they "make the guy earn it". It's a bit of the chicken and the egg, but not quite. Is it that it's common knowledge/thought that you can wear a girl down and thus guys do just that and girls eventually get tired of saying no. Or is it that society has deemed woman to be people pleasers and not cause a scene so that lends them to be. Personally, it pisses me off that another person is trying to convince me to want what they want. And I'm honestly racking my brain trying to remember the last guy that took me on a date and when I said no to him asking to come up left it at that vs trying to convince me to let him up. |
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djAdvocate
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only posting when the mood strikes me.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 30, 2014 10:20:15 GMT -5
yeah, that takes a lot of conviction- more that most guys have. Unfortunately in my age I've realized that if it's a resounding NO on my part I have to send the guy away before anything gets close to that. But I still argue the problem is that most guys don't immediately shirk away at the word no. It's honestly the biggest turn off for me, when they can't accept the first no. Crossed out guys I've really liked otherwise. Hell, one guy I currently like has gotten to that point. It's not so much that he wants to (that's always good) but the whole not respecting me and what I say that's the issue. well, i think there are a couple of things going on. one is respect/no respect. the second is ego. getting rejected sucks, but the whole sense of worth can get bound up in sex in a way it is not bound up in other social interactions. |
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