Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Sept 22, 2014 17:44:33 GMT -5
religion. So here it is in a nutshell. One of our employees has a side business that generates a lot of waste. He brought in his large truck and trailer full of crap so that he can go to the after work. Only he parks it right by the main entrance- which is a really dumb place to park a large vehicle plus it looks awful. The last time he did this the owner of the company had commented that it looks bad and it shouldn't be there. So truck shows up again today so I asked the supervisor to have the employee move it to the back so that it wasn't as noticeable. I also suggested that he take it to the on Saturday, rather than bringing it to our site. The employee is now claiming I'm violating HIS religious rights because I'm forcing him to work on Saturday. Except he isn't of a religion that requires no saturday work. However our owner is. The employee refuses to work sundays (which is always optional) because because it's his sabbath. But now is trying to claim that I'm forcing him to violate the owners sabbath by suggesting he do his stuff on his day off which is saturday. For the record, the owner couldn't care less what the employees do on saturday as long as they aren't doing it at his company. Seriously- the guy came into the office ranting and raving about how I was "forcing" him to work on Saturday and how dare we suggest that he do anything on his time off. I was trying to be nice figuring that the guy probably did most of the waste generating on Saturday and just didn't make it to the (closed on sundays). But now I just want to fire him for being a PITA.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 17:50:56 GMT -5
You aren't forcing him to have a side business. You'd actually prefer it if he didn't.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 22, 2014 17:52:19 GMT -5
No good deed goes unpunished.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Sept 22, 2014 17:52:47 GMT -5
Was there somewhere less conspicuous that he could park the truck? I'm not getting a mental picture of how ugly this thing is, so I'm not understanding why you were taking things a step further and asking him to leave the truck at home and on Saturdays.
I think his understanding of the sabbath is weak and opportunistic.
You may be missing the bit about how he wants to have his truck empty early on Saturday so there is room for more stuff. (Just guessing here, but it sounds logical.) Asking him to empty the truck on Saturdays is therefore impinging on his income.
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Sept 22, 2014 17:55:50 GMT -5
He can't detract from the appearance of the business with his truck, because he doesn't own the parking lot. He can't yell at you, because you're trying to be reasonable. He doesn't have any case against you, because his own religion doesn't prevent him from working on Saturdays.
At the very least, since he's already been warned once, he needs to give you a sincere apology and be written up for insubordination, or fired. He can make up his mind which he wants.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Sept 22, 2014 17:55:51 GMT -5
One more question, is there a loss prevention issue with him parking in the back?
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Sept 22, 2014 18:01:40 GMT -5
BTW, I've already jumped to the conclusion that the guy is a scrapper and the truck has some variant of "GOT JUNK?" emblazoned on it.
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Sept 22, 2014 18:02:25 GMT -5
The problem involves his side business and is therefore his problem to solve. Your company has every right to require that he not bring his random detritus to your place of employment and position it in such a way that it reflects badly on the company. If that means not bringing it at all, then that is what it means. What Whiny Butt does about the detritus generated on his own time by his side business is his problem. Merely suggesting that he might deal with it on a Saturday is nothing more than a suggestion of a possible solution to his problem. Your company is placing no requirement on him other than that he not create a nuisance to your company. He's trying to turn it into some sort of religious issue for reasons of his own.
He sounds like a jerk. I'd can him. That would solve your problem as well as his by providing him with plenty of time during the week to deal with his mess. Win-win.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Sept 22, 2014 18:06:23 GMT -5
Was there somewhere less conspicuous that he could park the truck? We have an employee parking lot in the back. We have a small parking lot in the front that office staff and visitors use. For a visual- this isn't his truck but you'll get the idea.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Sept 22, 2014 18:17:20 GMT -5
Already had it. Look the guy's claim that he's being forced to work on Saturday/a sabbath is laughable. Probably insanely dishonest too. (I suspect that his real problem is that what you have proposed will cut into the income that he would otherwise make on Saturdays.) I'd love to can the guy for this type of dishonesty too. Go ahead and seeth for a while. You need to get this worked through your system outside of work. Now step back and consider the situation. Your boss takes Saturdays off for religious reasons. He's probably someone who takes his sabbatarianism seriously. Now start looking at the hundreds of ways that this could blow up or get distorted or misrepresented. Doesn't letting him park in the back or cover signage with a tarp sound good now?
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Sept 22, 2014 18:31:08 GMT -5
Actually that was my first suggestion. He responded to the supervisor that there was no room. Supervisor suggested he come in early to be sure he had room to park and he didn't like that suggestion. He also accused another guy of "ratting him out". Not sure where that came from. It's not like the truck wasn't completely obvious.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 22, 2014 18:34:06 GMT -5
OMFG. They're everywhere, aren't they?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 22, 2014 18:34:10 GMT -5
Some people are just assholes.
Park in the back or lose your job. And here's the number to the EEOC.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 22, 2014 18:47:55 GMT -5
Fire his ass and you won't have whiners anymore. DF has ONE asshole at work. Why? Because he tolerates it. The rest of his employees, good ones, bitch like hell which is crazy on his part because why tolerate a jerk and piss off good people? I've never understood this thinking.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Sept 22, 2014 20:35:52 GMT -5
I love Swamp's suggestion, I really do. It's the correct legal answer.
But I'm not sure that it takes into account how volitile the situation is. The owner of the company observes the sabbath, that makes things complicated.
It isn't easy to carve out a Sabbath for yourself in this society and if you have managed to do so, the odds are very good that it means a lot to you. My experience with owners and bosses who observe a Sabbath, or claim to observe one, is that they can be wildly unpredictable when someone claims that religious beliefs are being violated. It does not seem to matter what faith the boss is, or how observant they appear to be (although I sometimes think that the less observant someone is, the weirder their response), or how educated they are. There's a sensitivity there that can surprise you.
Please be careful. The transparent bogosity of this employee's claim may not be the trump that you think it is. Religious employers who have encountered hostility to their own faith or observance are really hard to predict. This guy's laughable claims might get quite a bit more credence than you expect.
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Sept 22, 2014 20:47:52 GMT -5
Give him a written warning that his truck is not permitted on the front parking lot. If he parks it on the front lot again, his employment will be terminated. Have him sign and date the warning.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 22, 2014 21:32:44 GMT -5
I love Swamp's suggestion, I really do. It's the correct legal answer. But I'm not sure that it takes into account how volitile the situation is. The owner of the company observes the sabbath, that makes things complicated. It isn't easy to carve out a Sabbath for yourself in this society and if you have managed to do so, the odds are very good that it means a lot to you. My experience with owners and bosses who observe a Sabbath, or claim to observe one, is that they can be wildly unpredictable when someone claims that religious beliefs are being violated. It does not seem to matter what faith the boss is, or how observant they appear to be (although I sometimes think that the less observant someone is, the weirder their response), or how educated they are. There's a sensitivity there that can surprise you. Please be careful. The transparent bogosity of this employee's claim may not be the trump that you think it is. Religious employers who have encountered hostility to their own faith or observance are really hard to predict. This guy's laughable claims might get quite a bit more credence than you expect. Unless his side business is somehow related to his job and required, then he can't say they are making him work on Saturday and therefore violating his rights. He is opting to have a side business and it is up to him to find a way to do it that does not impact his job. If that is impossible without working Saturday, that is his problem.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Sept 22, 2014 22:14:14 GMT -5
Tell him he is correct and should not have to work on his religious weekends <<sarcasm>> and fire him so he has more time to his truck M-F. All problems solved - for you and your company because you will be rid of a PITA and no unsightly truck parked at your business. For him - he has all the time in the world for his side full time job.
And what a nut ball. They really are everywhere.
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toomuchreality
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Post by toomuchreality on Sept 23, 2014 5:07:48 GMT -5
It's kind of frightening, how weird some people can be.
I used to work with a girl that should have been fired ages ago. Instead the company kept finding her positions in another dept. Every time they attempted to fire her, she would come up with some equal rights BS claim. When they tried to let her go for the 5th or 6th time (I think), she claimed it had something to do with discrimination because of her kids. She had already changed her race several times, as well as her marriage status etc. The thing is, she never had been married, or had any kids.
When they asked for proof/verification of the children, she showed them the pictures of kids she had sent $19 (?) per month for, over seas! You know the ones, you see advertisements for on T.V. The starving children in Biafra, or where ever. -OMG! Are you kidding me?! She got away with it again!
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marvholly
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Post by marvholly on Sept 23, 2014 5:29:47 GMT -5
This guy needs to be fired BUT you need a clear & traceable series of infractions & warnings. He is WAAAY too 2 faced. Start a log NOW. Write him up for EVERYTHING you find & can think of. Make him sign & date them.
I figure you will need 3, maybe 6 months, until you can let him work his side business FT.
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milee
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Post by milee on Sept 23, 2014 5:48:00 GMT -5
Ugh. The guy is a scammer and obviously it's bogus to claim that your infringing on his religious rights, but here's one of those crazy areas that as a business you're wise to just avoid rather than face the risk of fighting.
You're not forcing him to work on Saturdays, you merely made a suggestion that he use his Saturdays to do his personal business. Totally reasonable but probably overstepping. So you can solve that particular issue by just refraining from making any suggestions about when he can do the run. Just make a company policy that unsightly vehicles and vehicles with trailers cannot park_____________________ and don't have any further talks with him.
As for the EEOC claim yes, it's totally stupid for him to assert that you're violating his rights. But here's the awful and crazy thing you discover as a business owner. It costs employees and ex employees nothing to pursue a case of discrimination because the EEOC does the work and pays the fees on behalf of the employee. So it costs nothing to try it on and there's no disadvantage to doing so. Worse yet, you may end up getting an EEOC office that wants to make this a test case. As an employer you may defend yourself successfully but be out the thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees for the defense... totally sucks. Best to just avoid it. Stop talking about what he can/should/would do on Saturdays.
Oh, and start finding some other way to get rid of this guy. Scammers like this always end up finding a way to scam. If it's not the religious freedom claim, it will be a slip and fall or some other BS. You now know what this guy is - don't wait to get scammed.
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xia
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Post by xia on Sept 23, 2014 7:05:33 GMT -5
Wow this guy is a total jerk. My understanding has always been that whoever owns the parking lot is responsible for its maintenance therefore has a right to set any rules for the people parking there. As an example, the company I work for had to actually post rules about no animal carcasses in beds of trucks after we had some seasonal hunters coming to first shift directly from night’s hunt with a dead dear tossed in the bed of their trucks. Company had to issue similar rule about taking up more then one parking spot because we had few people who had a lawn care side business showing up with trailer piled with lawn movers and lawn equipment in tow so they could go directly to their second job. We really have no extra parking spaces so it was creating a problem. As for truck filled with junk: what if something was to fall out and hurt someone or damage someone else’s car? What if the junk contains asbestos or lead or whatever other dangerous or corrosive things junk is bound to randomly contain? If I were you I would not only make him park it in designated space only but would make him provide paperwork stating his junk is free of lead/asbestos/what-not each time he wants to park his junk in company's parking lot. It he wants to invoke religion (which in his care is total bs) I would invoke OSHA. I would bet they have rules for that
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Sept 23, 2014 10:18:15 GMT -5
You're not forcing him to work on Saturdays, you merely made a suggestion that he use his Saturdays to do his personal business. Totally reasonable but probably overstepping. So you can solve that particular issue by just refraining from making any suggestions about when he can do the run. Just make a company policy that unsightly vehicles and vehicles with trailers cannot park_____________________ and don't have any further talks with him.
I realized in my frustration was that I typed it wrong. I didn't actually say he should go on Saturday. I told supervisor to remind him that the was open on saturday. But the implication was there.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Sept 23, 2014 10:55:48 GMT -5
And what a nut ball. They really are everywhere.
And, unfortunately, they breed.
Time to make parking lot rules. Effective in one week. This will give him time to scout a new parking place and decide if he wants to get there early enough to park in 'his' spot in the back lot.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Sept 23, 2014 22:40:38 GMT -5
The problem would be solved if he was paid enough so he didn't HAVE to have a second job! Surely this is somehow Obama, Bush, or Clinton's fault.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Sept 23, 2014 23:02:15 GMT -5
A friend of the family owns a small business. One of his employees just robbed a convenience store, and drove away in the COMPANY TRUCK. It was all caught on camera. I think it's safe to say that not everyone is operating with all their marbles. While I completely respect Milee's posts and think her caution is smart, I'd simply post a generic rule that ALL employees must park in the back so that there is room for customers in front. Effective immediately. Make it generic and not up for discussion. This doesn't have to be a big deal.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Sept 24, 2014 11:05:12 GMT -5
A friend of the family owns a small business. One of his employees just robbed a convenience store, and drove away in the COMPANY TRUCK. It was all caught on camera. I think it's safe to say that not everyone is operating with all their marbles. While I completely respect Milee's posts and think her caution is smart, I'd simply post a generic rule that ALL employees must park in the back so that there is room for customers in front. Effective immediately. Make it generic and not up for discussion. This doesn't have to be a big deal. It's still going to be a big deal, because he claimed he tried to do that and there wasn't any room...at which point someone suggested he simply arrive to work earlier to assure a spot. Telling everyone to park in the back if there isn't room isn't going to solve anything.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Sept 24, 2014 11:19:42 GMT -5
A friend of the family owns a small business. One of his employees just robbed a convenience store, and drove away in the COMPANY TRUCK. It was all caught on camera. I think it's safe to say that not everyone is operating with all their marbles. While I completely respect Milee's posts and think her caution is smart, I'd simply post a generic rule that ALL employees must park in the back so that there is room for customers in front. Effective immediately. Make it generic and not up for discussion. This doesn't have to be a big deal. It's still going to be a big deal, because he claimed he tried to do that and there wasn't any room...at which point someone suggested he simply arrive to work earlier to assure a spot. Telling everyone to park in the back if there isn't room isn't going to solve anything. There is usually enough room. The issue is that he would have to get there early in order to take two head to head parking spots. If he gets there just before shift, the spots available will not be configured to allow for him to park.
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milee
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Post by milee on Sept 24, 2014 12:48:12 GMT -5
It's still going to be a big deal, because he claimed he tried to do that and there wasn't any room...at which point someone suggested he simply arrive to work earlier to assure a spot. Telling everyone to park in the back if there isn't room isn't going to solve anything. There is usually enough room. The issue is that he would have to get there early in order to take two head to head parking spots. If he gets there just before shift, the spots available will not be configured to allow for him to park. Unless this POS trailer is welded to his truck (highly unlikely), he doesn't need two head to head spots. He's just too lazy to back the trailer into a spot, unhook it and then park the truck in another spot.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Sept 24, 2014 12:56:57 GMT -5
There is usually enough room. The issue is that he would have to get there early in order to take two head to head parking spots. If he gets there just before shift, the spots available will not be configured to allow for him to park. Unless this POS trailer is welded to his truck (highly unlikely), he doesn't need two head to head spots. He's just too lazy to back the trailer into a spot, unhook it and then park the truck in another spot. True, but if he took the time to hitch it up after work, he'd be too late to go to the - which defeats the purpose of him bringing it onsite to begin with. See parking up front is his only option!
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