The Free Market Finds A Way To Prevent Rape...

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

As a society, I think we have a duty to make sure women are protected from sexual assault wherever they go.  I would not ever 'blame the victim'.  I am not saying that women "should" have to think about the risks of going out to a bar, or signing up for college classes, or joining the armed forces.  And I'm not saying they should avoid all risks.  However, and again- I may just be misinformed about how widespread the problem is, but when I think about the places a woman might want to employ a date-rape-drug-detecting nail polish, I am not thinking about table 23 at Applebee's, or the local Irish Pub.  I'm thinking about nightclubs that might be described as 'meat markets' by some.  And I'm thinking there are other, more effective preventative measures- like the "buddy system", etc.  I'm not saying don't do anything- but I'm thinking there's a 1 to 10 scale of risk in just about everything, and I'd avoid the 8, 9, and 10's for sure.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 4, 2014 14:01:13 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

think some people take this idea way, way too far in an effort to protect woman from victim blaming. They suggest we never teach any skills to protect ourselves because the minute we suggest we need to protect ourselves, we are blaming the victim. . . We have to find balance between protecting ourselves & ensuring we don't make women feel worse than they already do if they are raped. .

I was just saying that to a friend yesterday after reading the thread on YM about the celebrity nude photos. 

I'd totally buy my daughters this nail polish.

I read this in disbelief.  Store your nude photos in the cloud, and you're surprised they got hacked?

[Deleted]

Sept 4, 2014 14:05:01 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

As a society, I think we have a duty to make sure women are protected from sexual assault wherever they go.  I would not ever 'blame the victim'.  I am not saying that women "should" have to think about the risks of going out to a bar, or signing up for college classes, or joining the armed forces.  And I'm not saying they should avoid all risks.  However, and again- I may just be misinformed about how widespread the problem is, but when I think about the places a woman might want to employ a date-rape-drug-detecting nail polish, I am not thinking about table 23 at Applebee's, or the local Irish Pub.  I'm thinking about nightclubs that might be described as 'meat markets' by some.  And I'm thinking there are other, more effective preventative measures- like the "buddy system", etc.  I'm not saying don't do anything- but I'm thinking there's a 1 to 10 scale of risk in just about everything, and I'd avoid the 8, 9, and 10's for sure.

"Meat Market"? You just described every campus pub ever. And pretty much all bars with dancing. Women should be able to go out to a meat market looking for some meat they want to engage with, and not have to avoid the place in case some chump roast wants to take her against her will. I think the problem here is that you aren't appreciating how prevalent the problem is and how many places and activities qualify as 8's and 9's.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Sept 4, 2014 14:05:54 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 4, 2014 14:01:13 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

think some people take this idea way, way too far in an effort to protect woman from victim blaming. They suggest we never teach any skills to protect ourselves because the minute we suggest we need to protect ourselves, we are blaming the victim. . . We have to find balance between protecting ourselves & ensuring we don't make women feel worse than they already do if they are raped. .

I was just saying that to a friend yesterday after reading the thread on YM about the celebrity nude photos. 

I'd totally buy my daughters this nail polish.

I read this in disbelief.  Store your nude photos in the cloud, and you're surprised they got hacked?

Apparently Apple devices force you to store all photos on the cloud.  Not an Apple fan so no idea on how true this is. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Paul I think part of the issue is you're thinking of rape in terms of what you see in crime dramas and movies. It's actually pretty rare that some random dude at a "meat market" drugs you and then hauls you away to attack you.

It's far more common on college campuses and in the military.

 A lot of times date rape is committed by someone you are familiar with, which is often why it goes unreported, the woman gets guilted into thinking she asked for it by taking a male colleague up on attending a party or other event.

And society reinforces tends to reinforce that viewpoint. Which is where the whole "rape culture" thing comes in.

[Green Eyed Lady]

It happens a lot on college campuses and part of the reason for that is that too many young men do not understand that society views non consensual sex as a crime.

The above comment is worth discussing if an acutal answer is to be found.  Obviously, we have a huge problem on college campuses and in the military.  My question here is for the men.

Was there ever a time in your young life - past the time you knew what sex was - that you did not understand that society viewed non-consensual sex as a crime?   Part two of my question:  Do you think other young men don't understand this?

[Angel!]

Sept 4, 2014 14:15:09 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

And society reinforces tends to reinforce that viewpoint. Which is where the whole "rape culture" thing comes in.

  The way the one Ohio rape case was present by the much of the news media & the way many reacted was ridiculous.  These poor young boys, star athletes, great students, are going to have their whole lives screwed up because of a drunk girl.  People were blaming the girl for screwing up these guys lives.  A little more blame probably should have been on the guys for acting reprehensibly & then recording it & sharing it.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 4, 2014 14:45:02 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Sept 4, 2014 14:15:09 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

And society reinforces tends to reinforce that viewpoint. Which is where the whole "rape culture" thing comes in.

  The way the one Ohio rape case was present by the much of the news media & the way many reacted was ridiculous.  These poor young boys, star athletes, great students, are going to have their whole lives screwed up because of a drunk girl.  People were blaming the girl for screwing up these guys lives.  A little more blame probably should have been on the guys for acting reprehensibly & then recording it & sharing it.

I wouldn't argue with you on this.  It was reprehensible, and those 'boys' are men who deserve severe punishment.  The rest of their lives?  What about the rest of HER life?

However, the rape door swings both ways and plenty of false allegations of rape have ruined many lives as well.  The Duke case comes to mind.

[zibazinski]

Actually the C & W bar that DD and her friends frequented was known for NOT being a meat market but just a fun  and safe place to hang out. Perfect spot for a prick to drug a young woman.

[973beachbum]

Sept 4, 2014 15:04:54 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 4, 2014 14:45:02 GMT -5 Angel! said:

  The way the one Ohio rape case was present by the much of the news media & the way many reacted was ridiculous.  These poor young boys, star athletes, great students, are going to have their whole lives screwed up because of a drunk girl.  People were blaming the girl for screwing up these guys lives.  A little more blame probably should have been on the guys for acting reprehensibly & then recording it & sharing it.

I wouldn't argue with you on this.  It was reprehensible, and those 'boys' are men who deserve severe punishment.  The rest of their lives?  What about the rest of HER life?

However, the rape door swings both ways and plenty of false allegations of rape have ruined many lives as well.  The Duke case comes to mind.

Absolutely!!!

Rape isn't mistake, it is a violent crime and the punishemnt should reflect that.  Her being drunk doesn't mean they get to commit violent crimes against her.  Last time I checked drinking was legal and there is no punishment for doing legal things.   But I'm sure the memory of being raped is more punishment that most of us would wish on our worst enemy and that will last the rest of her life.

As far as punishment these men should spend the rest of their lives in prison.  Maybe if we started doing that others would realize it isn't a little thing that won't ruin the rest of their lives and not do it. 

[zibazinski]

I taught my son that no means no, even if you're 3/4 of the way into it. Plus, never when drunk. I pointed out at the time he probably believed me, that most men can't perform with too much alcohol in their systems either so things are much better when both are reasonably aware of what's happening. Told him if she changes her mind, pick yourself up, get your clothes on and go home and count your blessings that she told you in time for you to get out.

[Phoenix84]

*shrugs* if you don't like it for whatever reason, no one says you have to purchase and use it.

I don't see anyone proposing a law saying it's use is mandatory.

And, as laterbloomer said, if this product is wrong, then so are burglar alarms, guns, tasers, pepper spray, and locks on your doors.

[Deleted]

Sept 4, 2014 15:04:54 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 4, 2014 14:45:02 GMT -5 Angel! said:

  The way the one Ohio rape case was present by the much of the news media & the way many reacted was ridiculous.  These poor young boys, star athletes, great students, are going to have their whole lives screwed up because of a drunk girl.  People were blaming the girl for screwing up these guys lives.  A little more blame probably should have been on the guys for acting reprehensibly & then recording it & sharing it.

I wouldn't argue with you on this.  It was reprehensible, and those 'boys' are men who deserve severe punishment.  The rest of their lives?  What about the rest of HER life?

However, the rape door swings both ways and plenty of false allegations of rape have ruined many lives as well.  The Duke case comes to mind.

Stop it! Just stop it! False allegations are much rarer and have absolutely nothing to do with rape cases. Under no circumstances should the Duke case be attached to the Ohio case. Delete that last sentance!

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 5, 2014 11:43:01 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Sept 4, 2014 15:04:54 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I wouldn't argue with you on this.  It was reprehensible, and those 'boys' are men who deserve severe punishment.  The rest of their lives?  What about the rest of HER life?

However, the rape door swings both ways and plenty of false allegations of rape have ruined many lives as well.  The Duke case comes to mind.

Stop it! Just stop it! False allegations are much rarer and have absolutely nothing to do with rape cases. Under no circumstances should the Duke case be attached to the Ohio case. Delete that last sentance!

Nothing is off the table for discussion because you don't like it.  I didn't mean to intentionally connect the two cases, but I do mean to defend those who are falsely accused of a horrific crime, who've done jail time, and whose reputations are ruined for all time for what amounts to buyer's remorse.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 5, 2014 9:20:37 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I taught my son that no means no, even if you're 3/4 of the way into it. Plus, never when drunk. I pointed out at the time he probably believed me, that most men can't perform with too much alcohol in their systems either so things are much better when both are reasonably aware of what's happening. Told him if she changes her mind, pick yourself up, get your clothes on and go home and count your blessings that she told you in time for you to get out.

When the time comes, I'll tell my son very directly: real men take ice cold showers when they need to. You'll never be ashamed you did the right thing.

[justme]

Sept 4, 2014 14:30:52 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

It happens a lot on college campuses and part of the reason for that is that too many young men do not understand that society views non consensual sex as a crime.

The above comment is worth discussing if an acutal answer is to be found.  Obviously, we have a huge problem on college campuses and in the military.  My question here is for the men.

Was there ever a time in your young life - past the time you knew what sex was - that you did not understand that society viewed non-consensual sex as a crime?   Part two of my question:  Do you think other young men don't understand this?

I think the problem stems from getting guys to understand what constitutes non-consensual. That any type of no is not, regardless of how she says it. That no, you don't actually know that she really wants it. Etc.

I also wonder if a problem is most guys think of rape as those awful ones depicted in crime dramas where the girl is jumped on the street and dragged into the alley. They rarely, if ever, depict ones where the girl asks to stop at some point and it turns from consensual to non-consensual.

[Deleted]

Sept 5, 2014 12:05:21 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 5, 2014 11:43:01 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Stop it! Just stop it! False allegations are much rarer and have absolutely nothing to do with rape cases. Under no circumstances should the Duke case be attached to the Ohio case. Delete that last sentance!

Nothing is off the table for discussion because you don't like it.  I didn't mean to intentionally connect the two cases, but I do mean to defend those who are falsely accused of a horrific crime, who've done jail time, and whose reputations are ruined for all time for what amounts to buyer's remorse.

Why? Do you mention all actual rapes every time one of those cases is brought up? You are part of the problem. When you mention false accusations whenever rape is mentioned you belittle it. Now we have to spend time talking about something totally different rather than how to stop rape.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 5, 2014 12:43:52 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Sept 5, 2014 12:05:21 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Nothing is off the table for discussion because you don't like it.  I didn't mean to intentionally connect the two cases, but I do mean to defend those who are falsely accused of a horrific crime, who've done jail time, and whose reputations are ruined for all time for what amounts to buyer's remorse.

Why? Do you mention all actual rapes every time one of those cases is brought up? You are part of the problem. When you mention false accusations whenever rape is mentioned you belittle it. Now we have to spend time talking about something totally different rather than how to stop rape.

You couldn't be more wrong. False accusations take away from the real reports of rape, and make a real victim's true story seem less credible.  Those women that cry wolf on rape are worse than the real rapists themselves.  The not only victimize innocent men, but they victimize every woman who has ever been raped, or ever will be raped.

[Deleted]

Sept 5, 2014 12:54:13 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 5, 2014 12:43:52 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Why? Do you mention all actual rapes every time one of those cases is brought up? You are part of the problem. When you mention false accusations whenever rape is mentioned you belittle it. Now we have to spend time talking about something totally different rather than how to stop rape.

You couldn't be more wrong. False accusations take away from the real reports of rape, and make a real victim's true story seem less credible.  Those women that cry wolf on rape are worse than the real rapists themselves.  The not only victimize innocent men, but they victimize every woman who has ever been raped, or ever will be raped.

See? Now you are talking about that rather than talking about how to stop rapes from happening. The issue the rest of us are discussing is how to change a culture in which rape is not treated as a serious crime. Part of the reason it isn't is because every time it comes up some jerk changes the subject to the poor victims of false allegations. Stop it! Most reports of rape are real and the perpetrators don't get nearly the punishment you think these falsely accused do.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 5, 2014 13:54:12 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Sept 5, 2014 12:54:13 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

You couldn't be more wrong. False accusations take away from the real reports of rape, and make a real victim's true story seem less credible.  Those women that cry wolf on rape are worse than the real rapists themselves.  The not only victimize innocent men, but they victimize every woman who has ever been raped, or ever will be raped.

See? Now you are talking about that rather than talking about how to stop rapes from happening. The issue the rest of us are discussing is how to change a culture in which rape is not treated as a serious crime. Part of the reason it isn't is because every time it comes up some jerk changes the subject to the poor victims of false allegations. Stop it! Most reports of rape are real and the perpetrators don't get nearly the punishment you think these falsely accused do.

You can't stop rape from happening.  You can't stop murder.  The problem is that while it is a black and white issue- rape is rape, and it's always wrong- we have this complicated system which regards the accused as innocent until proven guilty, and the requirement that the accusation be proven.  And that's before you get into the unique harm that rape does its victims.  How many crimes can be committed against you where YOU feel bad that someone victimized you? 

My answer is: I wish I knew how to stop rape.  There are many ways to prevent it, and some of them are better than others, but this idea seems like a way to at least help prevent one way women are victimized.  I'm still scratching my head at why feminists would be upset over it.

[Deleted]

Not all feminists are upset about it. As I said, I'm a feminist and I think it's a good tool.