djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 3, 2014 13:12:22 GMT -5
Get my point, edit or delete ! I have asked DJ before to include my entire post , without editing or deleting any part of it to fit his agenda. A person should not be able to edit another persons post. 1) i have no recollection of you ever asking me to include your entire post 2) i don't edit posts, i quote (excerpt) them 3) a person should be able to do whatever he pleases here, so long as it does not violate the TAC.
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Sept 3, 2014 13:13:11 GMT -5
I live on the edge. Just editing it it can not be wrong for me and right for everybody else You may excerpt from post! Ok
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 3, 2014 13:14:15 GMT -5
that doesn't sound like something i would say. but Paul did. Your memory is lacking. if you say so. but i reviewed this entire thread, and i didn't find anything like what you quoted. however, i am not perfect. just tell me what post number you got that quote from, and refresh my memory.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 3, 2014 13:16:17 GMT -5
damnotagain, let's not be posting the same post again and again, hmm? Thanks. - mmhmm, Administrator moreover, i don't see any evidence that what he is QUOTING me as saying, i actually said.
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Sept 3, 2014 13:17:09 GMT -5
Get my point, edit or delete ! I have asked DJ before to include my entire post , without editing or deleting any part of it to fit his agenda. A person should not be able to edit another persons post. 1) Right
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 3, 2014 13:17:36 GMT -5
You're riding the ragged edge, damnnot. I live on the edge. Just editing it it can not be wrong for me and right for everybody else no, but it can be wrong for you and wrong for everyone else, as is the case here.
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Sept 3, 2014 13:18:06 GMT -5
if you say so. but i reviewed this entire thread, and i didn't find anything like what you quoted. however, i am not perfect. just tell me what post number you got that quote from, and refresh my memory. Isis is killing children thread
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 3, 2014 13:19:10 GMT -5
previous to today, damn (you said BEFORE). if you ever made that request prior to today, i don't recall it. however, candidly, even if you have, i have only honored that request with ONE person.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 3, 2014 13:27:05 GMT -5
if you say so. but i reviewed this entire thread, and i didn't find anything like what you quoted. however, i am not perfect. just tell me what post number you got that quote from, and refresh my memory. Isis is killing children thread i didn't say what you quoted. here is the exchange: YOU: With the main goal of isis being to establish a caliphate how do you propose the separation of isis from Islam? ME: easy. we treat them as separate from mainstream Islam, even if they don't want us to. my point was this: what ISIS "wants" and what it can reasonably achieve are two different things. there are a lot of people in the US that want a feudal state. there are a lot of people that want anarchism. there are a lot of people that want a religious state. i don't pay much attention to what they want- ONLY to what they can reasonably obtain. the way we treat radicals is as radicals: as not part of the mainstream of the societies in which they exist. and yes, that does seem easy to me. if it doesn't to you, i am puzzled as to why. but again, i never said solving the PROBLEM OF ISIS was easy. you misquoted me. i NEVER do that to you, damn. EVER.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 3, 2014 14:01:04 GMT -5
Whether woman want to or do not want to drive cars is not the point...and your living as a westerner there for 10 years still doesn't give you the insight to say how the woman of the country want to live...The point is woman are not given that right , to drive or not plus to many other basic rights , to many to mention...with held from them.. To have a religiouse police whoes main job is to correct men and woman on the streets with verbal abuse and even beatings by clubs and sticks for what are perceived infractions of what ever...that is sick...As far as Shoobys last comment...while a bit much in some ways..she really is closer to the happenings in a way then she is not...All the above is IMHO.... And how long did you live in Saudi, Dezi? How many Saudi homes were you a guest in while there? How many Saudi friends do you have, and how much of their culture have you actually experienced? Never been there , never lived there..don't know any Saudis ..so never have been in one of their homes socially... I guess that means I am not qualified in your mind for commenting on the region, people, current events..politics of the area..problems that seem to be facing us from actions in that part of the world so I will bow to your feelings and just bow out...
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 3, 2014 14:07:41 GMT -5
And how long did you live in Saudi, Dezi? How many Saudi homes were you a guest in while there? How many Saudi friends do you have, and how much of their culture have you actually experienced? Never been there , never lived there..don't know any Saudis ..so never have been in one of their homes socially... I guess that means I am not qualified in your mind for commenting on the region, people, current events..politics of the area..problems that seem to be facing us from actions in that part of the world so I will bow to your feelings and just bow out... Basically, dezi, that's correct. You don't really know anything other than what you read. You don't know the people at all. You're simply repeating what you've read. Some of us know a bit more than what you've read.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 3, 2014 14:26:16 GMT -5
Never been there , never lived there..don't know any Saudis ..so never have been in one of their homes socially... I guess that means I am not qualified in your mind for commenting on the region, people, current events..politics of the area..problems that seem to be facing us from actions in that part of the world so I will bow to your feelings and just bow out... Basically, dezi, that's correct. You don't really know anything other than what you read. You don't know the people at all. You're simply repeating what you've read. Some of us know a bit more than what you've read. Gotcha....best to just accept the comments of mmhmm who lived there ten years ..how many years ago ..socialized with all stratas of society and got into deep open honest discussions on all aspects of their life and their feelings , no holds bar discussions..how all really felt on things and life..and all others who might have thoughts and ideas best to post on other topics...all hail to the most powerful mmhmm. Gotcha....
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 3, 2014 14:29:16 GMT -5
LOL! great exchange. i have rarely seen tongues so deeply imbedded in cheeks.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 3, 2014 14:29:24 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Mich made some of the same comments, deziloooooo. She's had the same experiences I have and has lived among the people of Saudi, talked to them, and learned from them. You have not. Has nothing to do with me. Has more to do with you making pronouncements about things you've only read, not experienced.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 14:42:56 GMT -5
Whether woman want to or do not want to drive cars is not the point...and your living as a westerner there for 10 years still doesn't give you the insight to say how the woman of the country want to live...The point is woman are not given that right , to drive or not plus to many other basic rights , to many to mention...with held from them.. To have a religiouse police whoes main job is to correct men and woman on the streets with verbal abuse and even beatings by clubs and sticks for what are perceived infractions of what ever...that is sick...As far as Shoobys last comment...while a bit much in some ways..she really is closer to the happenings in a way then she is not...All the above is IMHO.... And how long did you live in Saudi, Dezi? How many Saudi homes were you a guest in while there? How many Saudi friends do you have, and how much of their culture have you actually experienced? *ponders* I hesitate to speak on this much, because my data is second hand from my husband who was there on and off until recently. For his projects, he was never in a western compound, all of his time was spent in local apartments, hotels, or government facilities. If there were local restaurants near where he was put for the time being, he walked to them. The clients were Saudi, other engineers were folks from the UK, and the installation crew and driver were from places like Bangladesh, the Philippines and India. His understanding is that groups like ISIS are not appreciated by Saudi authorities, to put it lightly. Saudi has both Mecca and Medina, and work with huge pilgrimage numbers. His sense is that general order and security are taken very seriously, they do not want chaotic groups. The culture is a different one. DH, like most people who seek out travel or work in other nations, is pretty mellow. He did not spot any women driving, but he did see 9-11 year old boys driving their female relatives.
No attempts at conversing with women were made, he was a solo guy sent by the company to do work and not cause problems, and that was something he was told not to engage in, same with no alcohol or attempting to seek out pork products.
Among general life he did note a very defined social hierarchy based on nation of origin. From those experiences he gathered that it would probably really suck to be a woman from the Philippines and working as a maid or equivalent as far as potential dangers. The installation crew were told to do some things he was not comfortable with them doing at all; sometimes he could force through getting them proper safety equipment, other times they winged it. He said that the lead tech had the heart of a tiger and insane balance to put up devices like he did. Though not allowed, employers do often take employee passports, and employers must sign exit visas for workers to be able to leave the country for any reason. DH surrendered his passport daily at facility checkpoints, and got it back at the end of the day.
Mostly, I get the impression that if the people involved care about each other, the cultural systems can be mutually beneficial and work smoothly. But there are few recourses in several very important situations if things go wrong or the person in power does not care, stops caring, or goes dangerous. My impression is that culturally the system is orderly, but very inflexible.
Just what I gather from chattering with DH over the months anyway. I do think moderates tend not to have loud voices; almost by definition, they're not as intense, easily overlooked in favor of radicals thundering and screaming, saying things that shock large majorities.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 3, 2014 14:52:27 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Mich made some of the same comments, deziloooooo. She's had the same experiences I have and has lived among the people of Saudi, talked to them, and learned from them. You have not. Has nothing to do with me. Has more to do with you making pronouncements about things you've only read, not experienced. When one reads daily as I do articles and comments by specialist, experts on the problems and life in the area by those of the faith and also very importantly the comments after these articles by posters toward the authors and many times more toward fellow posters and see the scism between the two sects..the hatred and distrust ..one can get a pretty fair feeling of the common mans feelings about what is going on in a area..As much a feeling as one who may have lived in a area for a while but has been absent for a while and even there associated with those of a certain social / economic class which is fine and natural but still leaves a lot to be desired in understanding a culture and a area.. The following is a good site to go to every day..it is not the site for Western , USA audiences but it is in english...one should also read the comments after the articles to get a flavor of how the average poster feels about things.. www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/Interesting article just was posted on al jazeera dealing with woman who live in S Arabia, now this is not me spouting my thoughts on the topic by supposedly a few posts by Saudi woman on how they feel living in the country and what they have to deal with and how they actually feel about it..I think to not at least read their comments would be doing them a big dissavor and demean their feelings..Just a thought.. stream.aljazeera.com/story/201408281417-0024113
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 3, 2014 19:18:12 GMT -5
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 3, 2014 19:28:21 GMT -5
And how long did you live in Saudi, Dezi? How many Saudi homes were you a guest in while there? How many Saudi friends do you have, and how much of their culture have you actually experienced? *ponders* I hesitate to speak on this much, because my data is second hand from my husband who was there on and off until recently. For his projects, he was never in a western compound, all of his time was spent in local apartments, hotels, or government facilities. If there were local restaurants near where he was put for the time being, he walked to them. The clients were Saudi, other engineers were folks from the UK, and the installation crew and driver were from places like Bangladesh, the Philippines and India. His understanding is that groups like ISIS are not appreciated by Saudi authorities, to put it lightly. Saudi has both Mecca and Medina, and work with huge pilgrimage numbers. His sense is that general order and security are taken very seriously, they do not want chaotic groups. The culture is a different one. DH, like most people who seek out travel or work in other nations, is pretty mellow. He did not spot any women driving, but he did see 9-11 year old boys driving their female relatives.
No attempts at conversing with women were made, he was a solo guy sent by the company to do work and not cause problems, and that was something he was told not to engage in, same with no alcohol or attempting to seek out pork products.
Among general life he did note a very defined social hierarchy based on nation of origin. From those experiences he gathered that it would probably really suck to be a woman from the Philippines and working as a maid or equivalent as far as potential dangers. The installation crew were told to do some things he was not comfortable with them doing at all; sometimes he could force through getting them proper safety equipment, other times they winged it. He said that the lead tech had the heart of a tiger and insane balance to put up devices like he did. Though not allowed, employers do often take employee passports, and employers must sign exit visas for workers to be able to leave the country for any reason. DH surrendered his passport daily at facility checkpoints, and got it back at the end of the day.
Mostly, I get the impression that if the people involved care about each other, the cultural systems can be mutually beneficial and work smoothly. But there are few recourses in several very important situations if things go wrong or the person in power does not care, stops caring, or goes dangerous. My impression is that culturally the system is orderly, but very inflexible.
Just what I gather from chattering with DH over the months anyway. I do think moderates tend not to have loud voices; almost by definition, they're not as intense, easily overlooked in favor of radicals thundering and screaming, saying things that shock large majorities. You've gotten and excellent and very realistic view of life in the Kingdom, copperboxes. Your hubs knows what he's talking about. We were there for so long I was able to make friends (and the associated inroads) with a number of Saudi families, so spent time in their homes, was invited when a new baby came home, and was treated, in some cases, almost as one of the family. They're really a very hospitable people. You're also right the moderates are less likely to speak up. It's just not their way. They only want to live their lives and care for their families, just as we do.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 3, 2014 19:36:28 GMT -5
It appears Saudi is cracking down, as well. The Middle East is as appalled as we are at the atrocities of ISIS. Saudi Arrests 88
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Sept 3, 2014 21:47:20 GMT -5
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Post by OldCoyote on Sept 3, 2014 21:50:41 GMT -5
As Gainfully employed business person I have customers waiting, time to go to work, Rather than discuss about someone sucking off the Government hind tit. virtually all of the TP people i met at the last rally i attended were collecting social security. I thought there was a difference between SS there and welfare in England.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 3, 2014 23:56:55 GMT -5
virtually all of the TP people i met at the last rally i attended were collecting social security. I thought there was a difference between SS there and welfare in England. all looks gubminty to me.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 3, 2014 23:57:41 GMT -5
you moved the goalposts. i answered your question. but i will answer this one, too. NOW!
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 4, 2014 2:44:22 GMT -5
It appears Saudi is cracking down, as well. The Middle East is as appalled as we are at the atrocities of ISIS. Saudi Arrests 88I thought the Saudis were enouraging and arming many of the Sunni in revolt against Assad and his people...Saudis not happy with Iran, Shia....ISIS is composed of Sunni and many Sunni from Iraq have given support to Isis because of their treatment by outgoing PM , Malicki, of Iraq for the past eight years... There is a paradox going on now where enemies are considering working together since they feel ISIS is a danger to themselves..thus you have US possible cooperating with Iran..Israel even in cooperation with Egypt and quietly with the Saudis too..and all not sure how to react against Assad since he too is fighting Isis..
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 4, 2014 8:43:54 GMT -5
The Saudi royal family is Sunni. The eastern province of Saudi is mostly Shia. Iranians are Persians, not Arabs, and are Shia, for the most part, and are looked on as "different". Because of the attitude of "me against my brother, my brother and I against the village ..." attitude, what you're seeing there isn't all that unusual. They'll work together, to a degree, against a common danger. None of those countries want this mess spilling into their country. ISIS is something very different and they want no part of it. That's why the arrests. I doubt they're over.
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 4, 2014 8:47:58 GMT -5
The enemy of my enemy is my friend?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 4, 2014 8:59:22 GMT -5
The enemy of my enemy is my friend? Exactly, zib.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 4, 2014 13:37:14 GMT -5
The Saudi royal family is Sunni. The eastern province of Saudi is mostly Shia. Iranians are Persians, not Arabs, and are Shia, for the most part, and are looked on as "different". Because of the attitude of "me against my brother, my brother and I against the village ..." attitude, what you're seeing there isn't all that unusual. They'll work together, to a degree, against a common danger. None of those countries want this mess spilling into their country. ISIS is something very different and they want no part of it. That's why the arrests. I doubt they're over. The eastern province of Saudi is where the majority of oil and gas are I believe and Royals are not happy with a majority population of Shia there..Iran has been doing what it can to stir up the population there when it can...as you say , it is a attitude of family , tribe and then if anything left over , country as far as loyalty and support...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 4, 2014 13:41:33 GMT -5
the House of Saud is morally bankrupt. i can't blame pious Muslims for loathing them. the uneasy truce between Islamic Radicalism and the House of Saud is the Wahabbist School System, which is funded through oil revenues. were that to dry up, i am confident that there would be an utter breakdown in social order in the region. or, at least, that is what i have come to believe after reading Sleeping With The Devil, by Robert Baer.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 4, 2014 15:59:51 GMT -5
The Saudi royal family is Sunni. The eastern province of Saudi is mostly Shia. Iranians are Persians, not Arabs, and are Shia, for the most part, and are looked on as "different". Because of the attitude of "me against my brother, my brother and I against the village ..." attitude, what you're seeing there isn't all that unusual. They'll work together, to a degree, against a common danger. None of those countries want this mess spilling into their country. ISIS is something very different and they want no part of it. That's why the arrests. I doubt they're over. The eastern province of Saudi is where the majority of oil and gas are I believe and Royals are not happy with a majority population of Shia there..Iran has been doing what it can to stir up the population there when it can...as you say , it is a attitude of family , tribe and then if anything left over , country as far as loyalty and support... There has been a majority Shia population in the Eastern Province for many, many years, Dezi. They are not mistreated by the royal family, and have the same entitlements as any other citizen of the Kingdom. It is, indeed, where the oil and gas come from. That really doesn't have anything to do with ISIS, though. We actually had an Iranian pilot fly his plane into Saudi airspace and land right in front of a plane I was on (taking off to make a run to Udiliyah). He was defecting and chose the Aramco airport as opposed to Kuwait or Bahrain. The Iranians had been doing some exercises over the Gulf. He was not mistreated but was moved to Riyadh for his case to be heard.
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