Racism on parade part 2- cops, thugs, looting, Obama,& more

[EVT1]

news.yahoo.com/renewed-rioting-killing-black-missouri-teen-023503888.html

I stayed away from this because nobody knows for sure what went down- there is the police version, the eyewitness versions, the unreleased and unprocessed evidence, etc. etc. 

But one thing I noticed rather quickly- this case split into two camps before fact one- and on one side it is the same old shit that went down in other cases where unarmed black kids were shot.  I see 2 main arguments from these losers:

1) Unsubstantiated talk that the victim was a criminal, had a record, robbed a store, was on drugs, etc.  Purple drank maybe.

2) Deflection to wondering why black on black crime isn't investigated as much

The commentary is disgusting- and I had no idea ngrs was shorthand for something.  My fault- you should never read the comments but I just had to see- what I already knew I guess. 

This is just another reason police should be required to wear lapel cameras- no more he said she said bullshit.  Time to fire any of these assholes that have a problem being filmed doing their job.  This situation could have been resolved in 5 minutes.

[resolution]

I haven't really read up on it today, but as of yesterday there was no real information as to how it happened. If you look on reddit, there is the opposite reaction where people are automatically assuming that the police officer is a murderer and the thread is full of comments attacking the police. Although there are some threads like this one where people are just discussing why there is so little information about what happened. 
www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/2dcgn2/police_said_tuesday_that_they_wont_release_the/

I agree we need the lapel cameras.

[EVT1]

Right on- there are assholes on both sides of this that are making assumptions and pointing fingers.

But when it comes to unarmed people being killed I want to know what happened- for some kids to be walking down the street- jaywalking or not- and it ends in an unarmed person getting killed-I think it is pretty important.

 

[OldCoyote]

Aug 12, 2014 21:38:08 GMT -5 resolution said:

I haven't really read up on it today, but as of yesterday there was no real information as to how it happened. If you look on reddit, there is the opposite reaction where people are automatically assuming that the police officer is a murderer and the thread is full of comments attacking the police. Although there are some threads like this one where people are just discussing why there is so little information about what happened. 
www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/2dcgn2/police_said_tuesday_that_they_wont_release_the/

I agree we need the lapel cameras.

Ahh, But who is in charge of the cameras,  Have you noticed how often the video disappears.

[zibazinski]

Or the emails? Or the backup files?

[Value Buy]

I was surprised it took this long to start this particular discussion.

Makes the fiasco in Florida with Travon Martin look like a cake walk.

Lots of so called witnesses, with varying degrees of detail.

I believe, if I remember correctly, the day after I saw the mother on camera saying she saw him running down the street, and later was told he was shot by the police.

another report said there initially was a shot fired inside the police car. By whom, I do not know.

The kid with the boy says the cop just point blank shot him when he had his hand raised. Wonder if this is true, why the cop did not shoot him too. Why leave a witness that will convict you?

Something happened to precipitate this shooting.

Saw a witness who was on her balcony state she heard a shot, looked, and the the cop just outright shot him. No mention of the other boy or where the first shot was fired that caught her attention.

Makes the stun guns look better all the time, but there has been so much over abuse of these, not sure that is the answer either.

Police batons in black communities are not rather well received either.

[Deleted]

Aug 13, 2014 8:56:19 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

I was surprised it took this long to start this particular discussion.

Makes the fiasco in Florida with Travon Martin look like a cake walk.

Lots of so called witnesses, with varying degrees of detail.

I believe, if I remember correctly, the day after I saw the mother on camera saying she saw him running down the street, and later was told he was shot by the police.

another report said there initially was a shot fired inside the police car. By whom, I do not know.

The kid with the boy says the cop just point blank shot him when he had his hand raised. Wonder if this is true, why the cop did not shoot him too. Why leave a witness that will convict you?

Something happened to precipitate this shooting.

Saw a witness who was on her balcony state she heard a shot, looked, and the the cop just outright shot him. No mention of the other boy or where the first shot was fired that caught her attention.

Makes the stun guns look better all the time, but there has been so much over abuse of these, not sure that is the answer either.

Police batons in black communities are not rather well received either.

Law enforcement is not well received in certain communities. Not just black ones. It's funny how at 58 years old I've never had a police officer even notice me, and others are dead at 18 by police gunfire. Think there might be a difference in attitude or behavior ?

[OldCoyote]

In my youth, there was a Colorado State Trooper that would stop me every time he saw me driving my old truck.  Just to harass me.

One time wrote me a warning for a licence plate bulb that was out.  Made me turn on my lights, to find it . It was the middle of the day.

[resolution]

Unfortunately the craziness is escalating on both sides. On one side we have angry riotors that are looting and burning stores that had nothing to do with the situation. On the other side, we have police running around fully militarized and shooting tear gas at people that are protesting in their own yards because they won't stay in their houses when told.

[zibazinski]

Then stay in your damn house. It's somewhat safer there anyway. What part of the order stay in your house don't you get? If you leave and get hurt or killed, it's on you. Those who go looking for trouble usually find it. Don't bring your big talk to a gun fight.

[Virgil Showlion]

Aug 12, 2014 21:27:19 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

news.yahoo.com/renewed-rioting-killing-black-missouri-teen-023503888.html

I see 2 main arguments from these losers:

1) Unsubstantiated talk that the victim was a criminal, had a record, robbed a store, was on drugs, etc.  Purple drank maybe.

2) Deflection to wondering why black on black crime isn't investigated as much

In fairness to "the losers", one of the first comments in the list is

Michael Brown's rap sheet on casenet. Note that he also has a juvenile criminal record that is sealed !!
Description: Burglary - 1st Degree { Felony B RSMo: 569.160 }

Hence there does seem to be some substantiation that he was a criminal, had a record, robbed a store, etc.

And if the death of one black boy at the hands of police elicits two days of nonstop rioting, while the deaths of hundreds of black boys at the hands of local thugs and gangsters is just par for the course, it's fair to question the rioters' priorities.

Also, you seem deeply aggrieved that "the losers" haven't changed their opinions since the Trayvon Martin shooting. But why would they? What's changed between then and now?

ETA: Don't get me wrong. This shouldn't have happened, and it's a tragedy no matter what the background of the victims. Unfortunately it's probably going to turn out to be a battle of police character versus victim character. There are conflicting eyewitness accounts and very likely to be no conclusive hard evidence.

What's left?

People's opinions.

[973beachbum]

In fairness to "the losers", one of the first comments in the list is

Michael Brown's rap sheet on casenet. Note that he also has a juvenile criminal record that is sealed !!
Description: Burglary - 1st Degree { Felony B RSMo: 569.160 }

Hence there does seem to be some substantiation that he was a criminal, had a record, robbed a store, etc.

Virgil Showlion how did they know that when they stopped him?  That might be a valid reason for stopping a car if you were looking for the  person who robbed someplace and you ran their plates and found it out but i have no Earthly idea how an officer would know that just from watching someone jaywalk.

Around here if they shot everyone who jaywalked they would have to start stacking them vertically!  Stacking them horizontally would take up way too much room really quick!  

[Virgil Showlion]

Aug 13, 2014 14:02:15 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

In fairness to "the losers", one of the first comments in the list is

Michael Brown's rap sheet on casenet. Note that he also has a juvenile criminal record that is sealed !!
Description: Burglary - 1st Degree { Felony B RSMo: 569.160 }

Hence there does seem to be some substantiation that he was a criminal, had a record, robbed a store, etc.

Virgil Showlion how did they know that when they stopped him?  That might be a valid reason for stopping a car if you were looking for the  person who robbed someplace and you ran their plates and found it out but i have no Earthly idea how an officer would know that just from watching someone jaywalk.

Around here if they shot everyone who jaywalked they would have to start stacking them vertically!  Stacking them horizontally would take up way too much room really quick!  

I'm not claiming the police knew this or that it somehow justifies the shooting.

I'm just pointing out to EVT that the "unsubstantiated talk" about the victim was, at least in some cases, substantiated.

As I say, I suspect this case will come down to a battle of character due to conflicting eyewitness accounts and a lack of physical evidence. People taking an interest in the story will pick sides based on which theory they believe is more likely: that the victim was a reckless thug that made a grab for one of the officer's guns and got shot as a result; or that the officer involved lost his head and shot an unarmed black teenager for no justifiable reason.

The same thing happened in the Trayvon Martin case. Was he a frustrated kid with some pop and Skittles being stalked by George Zimmerman, or was he a violent, drug-using thug who decided to pound a nosy neighbourhood watchman into a pulp? People largely made up their minds based on Zimmerman's and Martin's general characters.

[EVT1]

So Virgil, you are going to take the word of some internet commenter that may have entered a name in a database, no way to know if it is the same person, and run with it?  I consider that unsubstantiated information.
 
Strange the media hasn't picked up on that information.  But it is interesting how quick the character assasins come out of the woodwork in cases like this.

[Virgil Showlion]

Aug 13, 2014 15:33:45 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

So Virgil, you are going to take the word of some internet commenter that may have entered a name in a database, no way to know if it is the same person, and run with it?  I consider that unsubstantiated information.

I suppose so. There are probably a few thousand "Michael Brown"s in Missouri, and you're right: I don't trust the commenter to have found the right one. Point conceded.

I notice you've ignored my other criticism. Are you going to go "EVT in the Zimmerman thread" on us again?

On a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is you don't have a clue, and 10 is you'd stake your life on it, how certain are you that Mr. Brown didn't assault an officer and make a grab for his gun?

[Malarky]

Aug 13, 2014 13:24:49 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Aug 12, 2014 21:27:19 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

news.yahoo.com/renewed-rioting-killing-black-missouri-teen-023503888.html

I see 2 main arguments from these losers:

1) Unsubstantiated talk that the victim was a criminal, had a record, robbed a store, was on drugs, etc.  Purple drank maybe.

2) Deflection to wondering why black on black crime isn't investigated as much

In fairness to "the losers", one of the first comments in the list is

Michael Brown's rap sheet on casenet. Note that he also has a juvenile criminal record that is sealed !!
Description: Burglary - 1st Degree { Felony B RSMo: 569.160 }

Hence there does seem to be some substantiation that he was a criminal, had a record, robbed a store, etc.

And if the death of one black boy at the hands of police elicits two days of nonstop rioting, while the deaths of hundreds of black boys at the hands of local thugs and gangsters is just par for the course, it's fair to question the rioters' priorities.

Also, you seem deeply aggrieved that "the losers" haven't changed their opinions since the Trayvon Martin shooting. But why would they? What's changed between then and now?

ETA: Don't get me wrong. This shouldn't have happened, and it's a tragedy no matter what the background of the victims. Unfortunately it's probably going to turn out to be a battle of police character versus victim character. There are conflicting eyewitness accounts and very likely to be no conclusive hard evidence.

What's left?

People's opinions.

I don't even begin to think that I know what happened, other than a young man was shot by an officer. I won't speculate.  

I will condemn the actions of the rioters.  What exactly does looting and vandalizing accomplish?

It will take that much longer to conduct any kind of meaningful investigation whilst the police deal with people who think that breaking windows and stealing TV in some way helps.


Hit post too soon.

And we and they should care just as much about the senseless slayings that have become all to commonplace.  
 



 

[EVT1]

Aug 13, 2014 17:32:37 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Aug 13, 2014 15:33:45 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

So Virgil, you are going to take the word of some internet commenter that may have entered a name in a database, no way to know if it is the same person, and run with it?  I consider that unsubstantiated information.

I suppose so. There are probably a few thousand "Michael Brown"s in Missouri, and you're right: I don't trust the commenter to have found the right one. Point conceded.

I notice you've ignored my other criticism. Are you going to go "EVT in the Zimmerman thread" on us again?

On a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is you don't have a clue, and 10 is you'd stake your life on it, how certain are you that Mr. Brown didn't assault an officer and make a grab for his gun?

Was I a little opinionated in the Zimmerman thread?

On this case I guess I am at a one- cops lie, witnesses lie, impossible to determine anything yet.  We have a story by the person with him- an autopsy should be able to support or refute that story.  There is no question he was unarmed- but he is 6'4- a mighty big boy- but again unarmed and the autopsy should help determine how the shooting played out- and there are other witnesses as well-same thing.

This is nothing like the Zimmerman case- he was an asshole that decided to play cop and made a choice to get out of his vehicle and investigate a suspicious person.  This is a police officer that knows the proper use of force under the law.

Where are you on the scale of 1 to 10 that some kid jaywalking decided to assault/batter/ attempt to grab a gun from a police officer rather than just move to the sidewalk?

[Virgil Showlion]

Where are you on the scale of 1 to 10 that some kid jaywalking decided to assault/batter/ attempt to grab a gun from a police officer rather than just move to the sidewalk?

I'd say a 3, since it is known that the officer involved had his face pretty beat up. Evidently something happened.

Whether or not a scuffle escalated into a gun grab, who knows. Hence the 3.

And we and they should care just as much about the senseless slayings that have become all to commonplace.

I don't know if "we" do or not.

It's clear they don't, otherwise we'd have rioting in the streets every second day.

[EVT1]

Rioting solves nothing and I truly believe it is just a small group of losers that could care less about what happened and are just exploiting the situation for their own benefit.

I read that the officer had injuries- that is significant.  But I am sure the autopsy will either support or refute his version of events as well.  It could be a legitimate shooting at first if there was some serious confrontation, that turned into a crime if he shot the man with his hands up, or worse shot him on the ground which has been alleged by some witnesses.

I guess one thing we can agree on is that anyone who thinks they have this all figured out is an idiot- hence my thread pointing out the creeps that jumped all over this guy before fact one was available.

[EVT1]

BTW when it comes to idiots making assumptions it applies to Sharpton or anyone else that claims to know what happened- I don't know what he has said or not so I am not pointing a finger.

What is 100% necessary in cases like this is for an outside agency to investigate it- the FBI works for me.  The mouthpieces need to calm everyone down and assure the public the facts will come out.

[Wisconsin Beth]

What the fuck's going on in Ferguson?! 

I know the background on the Michael Brown shooting but Jesus - rioting, tear gas, arresting people for getting out of cars, for not moving fast enough? 

Cops arrested 2 reporters last night, apparently booked them and everything and then let the go saying it was a mistake? When someone called to ask about it, the apparent on record answer was "Oh God"

My sources are Slate so I know there's a bias there.  But good Lord.  I suspect the local cops are in way over their heads and don't know how to get out at this point. 

[PK Bucko]

I'm sitting a 15 minute drive from this bullshit right now.

I'll bottom line this: 

We don't know if the cop was right or wrong is shooting the 18 year old man. If the cop was wrong he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

We know the violence, looting, stealing and destruction that has been brought about by the protesters is wrong and they threaten more daily. One of those "innocent" protesters threw a Molotov cocktail at police last night. Those morons do not realize that they are hurting their cause. Or, they don't care about the cause.

[PK Bucko]

Not your typical police cruisers...

[The Captain]

Aug 14, 2014 9:24:24 GMT -5 PK Bucko said:

I'm sitting a 15 minute drive from this bullshit right now.

I'll bottom line this: 

We don't know if the cop was right or wrong is shooting the 18 year old man. If the cop was wrong he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

We know the violence, looting, stealing and destruction that has been brought about by the protesters is wrong and they threaten more daily. One of those "innocent" protesters threw a Molotov cocktail at police last night. Those morons do not realize that they are hurting their cause. Or, they don't care about the cause.

Bingo!

Stay safe.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Yes, stay safe. 

[PK Bucko]

Aug 14, 2014 9:39:29 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Yes, stay safe. 

Thanks for that. There are geographic boundaries that keep me safe (presumably) both here at work and where I live. However, I have family and friends that don't share that benefit and some live very close to this stuff. A store was broken into and looted two nights ago in my father's neighborhood. And it's nowhere near Ferguson. The looting that night had spilled into other communities locally.

[Wisconsin Beth]

I hope they stay safe too. 

[djAdvocate]

Aug 14, 2014 9:24:24 GMT -5 PK Bucko said:

I'm sitting a 15 minute drive from this bullshit right now.

I'll bottom line this: 

We don't know if the cop was right or wrong is shooting the 18 year old man. If the cop was wrong he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

We know the violence, looting, stealing and destruction that has been brought about by the protesters is wrong and they threaten more daily. One of those "innocent" protesters threw a Molotov cocktail at police last night. Those morons do not realize that they are hurting their cause. Or, they don't care about the cause.

here is the problem, PK.

black, white, yellow or green, if a cop kills, it is VERY RARE for them to see any sort of "regular guy" jail time.  most often, they get a reprimand and some cooling time, and then go right back to work.  the victims and their communities are RIGHT to see this as elitism- when the conduct of an officer is placed above that of the citizen.  in a situation where the law is being disrespected by those that are in charge, ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP, how is a community SUPPOSED to react?

by the way, i am not excusing the actions- but i understand the desperation and anger.

[Blonde Granny]

Many of you are not old enough to remember the race riots in E. St. Louis back in the 1970s. It was far worse then than now.

[Blonde Granny]

Aug 14, 2014 13:36:15 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 14, 2014 9:24:24 GMT -5 PK Bucko said:

I'm sitting a 15 minute drive from this bullshit right now.

I'll bottom line this: 

We don't know if the cop was right or wrong is shooting the 18 year old man. If the cop was wrong he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

We know the violence, looting, stealing and destruction that has been brought about by the protesters is wrong and they threaten more daily. One of those "innocent" protesters threw a Molotov cocktail at police last night. Those morons do not realize that they are hurting their cause. Or, they don't care about the cause.

here is the problem, PK.

black, white, yellow or green, if a cop kills, it is VERY RARE for them to see any sort of "regular guy" jail time.  most often, they get a reprimand and some cooling time, and then go right back to work.  the victims and their communities are RIGHT to see this as elitism- when the conduct of an officer is placed above that of the citizen.  in a situation where the law is being disrespected by those that are in charge, ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP, how is a community SUPPOSED to react?

by the way, i am not excusing the actions- but i understand the desperation and anger.

Oh, I don't know....maybe like civilized citizens?  Tell me exactly who is suffering desperation?  People in the street looting and burning stores?  That's a great way to do it.  Loot & burn down in your own community? Exactly how is that going to help?

Maybe the police just need to let these communities police themselves, is that a good solution?  Let the police pack up and go off duty.  I'm sure that will solve the problem within a short period of time. <sarcasm switch turned on>