No Lease Agreement Tenant Rights-UPDATE on reply #29

[Iggy aka IG]

I'll try and be brief.

My rather small town had a ballot issue last year, which my team was against.  I spearheaded the efforts, and had a wonderful group of supporters.  We won by a landslide.  My office is in the same building, on the same floor, as the leader of the opposition, a woman we'll call "S".  I moved into this building October, 2012, and it has done wonders for my business.  This is the most professional building in town.

Since the campaign began, S took everything very personal, because she was passionate about the subject-rumor has it she even has a shrine in her home.  Anyway, since we won last September, things here in the office building have been strained to say the least.  Things like my business cards being taken from the foyer, my suite sign shoved over, phone books being piled in front of my door during my absence, S calling out "karma!" down the call as she says goodbye to her client friends.  S has several friends and her husband who rent 3 other suites here.

The recent incident of S walking by my suite door calling me a bitch was the last straw so I reported her to the authorities yesterday.  The officer gave me info on how to obtain a restraining order if necessary.

I did not renew my annual lease last October.  Building manager is friends with S.  Owner lives in NY. Lease says they can ask me to leave at any time after it expires.  Am meeting with a lawyer on the 19th.

Thoughts?  Advice?

[Sum Dum Gai]

You called the police because somebody called you a bitch?  Damn... I'd have to put the police non emergency number on speed dial, and I consider myself a pretty nice guy.

What was the ballot issue?

[Iggy aka IG]

Yup.  It is considered verbal assault.  If she were an employee, she'd have been fired.  I'm tired of dealing with her middle school antics, and this is the only way to get through to her 14 year old mentality.


It was a tax related issue.

[Tennesseer]

Are you now on a month-to-month lease seeing you did not renew the lease last October?

[Iggy aka IG]

Aug 8, 2014 20:14:52 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Are you now on a month-to-month lease seeing you did not renew the lease last October?

I suppose it's implied.  It reads:

"Unless both Lessee and Lessor have signed a new lease agreement, Lessee shall surrender the premises to Lessors immediately on termination of the Lease."

This tells me they can boot me out at any time, for any reason with no notice?

The building manager is friends with S, but would she risk a lawsuit?

[Deleted]

Just curious...were you opposing a tax increase of some kind? No need to answer if you don't want. Seems like there is more to this than her side losing.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Yup. It is considered verbal assault. If she were an employee, she'd have been fired. I'm tired of dealing with her middle school antics, and this is the only way to get through to her 14 year old mentality.

True from your point of view.

Hers is more likely to be along the lines of you being an evil bitch due to your support of the tax issue, and now you're also a nut job who's trying to sick the police on her.  Most landlords aren't real keen on tenants that involve police and lawyers over what they consider trivial issues.

I'm not saying you were wrong, by the way, just that I'd be keeping my eyes and ears open for a new lease location.  I'd say the odds are pretty high that you'll be losing your current one soon, and I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think there's much you can do about it without a lease in place.  She's under no obligation to rent to you at the moment, and she can stop at any time for any legal reason.  Not liking somebody isn't against the law, so she can stop renting to you for that reason alone.

[Tennesseer]

Aug 8, 2014 20:16:52 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

Aug 8, 2014 20:14:52 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Are you now on a month-to-month lease seeing you did not renew the lease last October?

I suppose it's implied.  It reads:

"Unless both Lessee and Lessor have signed a new lease agreement, Lessee shall surrender the premises to Lessors immediately on termination of the Lease."

This tells me they can boot me out at any time, for any reason with no notice?

The building manager is friends with S, but would she risk a lawsuit?

Iggy-what would be the basis of your lawsuit if you have no lease outlining your legal rights as a tenant?

[Tiny]

I suspect it reverts to a month to month lease. I had such an agreement with the original tenant for my condo for the last year (it worked out well for both of us given the situation).

The 'month to month' thing means the tenant OR the landlord can end the 'lease' any time. It's pretty cut and dry.

I'm assuming you've been paying the 'rent' even though you don't have a signed lease. That would imply both you and the landlord are hunky-dory with a "month to month" type agreement.

Why didn't you renew you lease? Where you thinking you'd relocate and so wanted flexibility?

[Sum Dum Gai]

The building manager is friends with S, but would she risk a lawsuit?

Oh... sorry.  Misread the op.  I thought S was the landlord.  Yeah, if she's just another tenant you might as well try to give her a little hell since she's already doing it to you.

[swamp]

You're now month to month. 

[wmpeon]

How do tenant laws differ for businesses compared to individuals?  I'd imagine most owners would want businesses to stick around, since the costs of finding a new business tenant and updating the space could be cost-prohibitive. 

Has the building manager said or done anything to suggest he's trying to undermine you or cause problems?  Just because he's friends with S doesn't mean he'll go out of his way to hurt business, but you're the one who interacts with him.

Since this is a business, can you install a cheap (and invisible) camera view of your front stoop, so you can film anyone vandalizing or causing problems?

[Iggy aka IG]

Aug 8, 2014 20:19:55 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Just curious...were you opposing a tax increase of some kind? No need to answer if you don't want. Seems like there is more to this than her side losing.

Yes.  Our town already has one of the highest sales tax in the country.  I don't want to get too specific about what the tax was going to be used for.

[Iggy aka IG]

Aug 8, 2014 20:20:24 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Yup. It is considered verbal assault. If she were an employee, she'd have been fired. I'm tired of dealing with her middle school antics, and this is the only way to get through to her 14 year old mentality.

True from your point of view.

Hers is more likely to be along the lines of you being an evil bitch due to your support of the tax issue, and now you're also a nut job who's trying to sick the police on her.  Most landlords aren't real keen on tenants that involve police and lawyers over what they consider trivial issues.

I'm not saying you were wrong, by the way, just that I'd be keeping my eyes and ears open for a new lease location.  I'd say the odds are pretty high that you'll be losing your current one soon, and I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think there's much you can do about it without a lease in place.  She's under no obligation to rent to you at the moment, and she can stop at any time for any legal reason.  Not liking somebody isn't against the law, so she can stop renting to you for that reason alone.

My side was opposed to the tax.

I thought about what you are saying in paragraph two.  I brought this to the LL's attention months ago, and she said let her know if things became belligerent.  Well, name calling fits that mold.  The authorities see this as a type of domestic violence.  Because of their friendship, the LL is protecting an abuser.

I consult with a lawyer on the 19th.

[Iggy aka IG]

Aug 8, 2014 20:21:48 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Aug 8, 2014 20:16:52 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

I suppose it's implied.  It reads:

"Unless both Lessee and Lessor have signed a new lease agreement, Lessee shall surrender the premises to Lessors immediately on termination of the Lease."

This tells me they can boot me out at any time, for any reason with no notice?

The building manager is friends with S, but would she risk a lawsuit?

Iggy-what would be the basis of your lawsuit if you have no lease outlining your legal rights as a tenant?

Yeah, I'm not thinking about a lawsuit-just wondering what my rights as a month to month tenant are.  Can the LL kick me out for no reason now that the lease is up?  The fact she is protecting S is going to look mighty suspicious if it ever gets to a restraining order level.  Heck, it makes her look unprofessional already because she is being complicit.

[Iggy aka IG]

Aug 8, 2014 21:15:29 GMT -5 wmpeon said:

How do tenant laws differ for businesses compared to individuals?  I'd imagine most owners would want businesses to stick around, since the costs of finding a new business tenant and updating the space could be cost-prohibitive. 

Has the building manager said or done anything to suggest he's trying to undermine you or cause problems?  Just because he's friends with S doesn't mean he'll go out of his way to hurt business, but you're the one who interacts with him.

Since this is a business, can you install a cheap (and invisible) camera view of your front stoop, so you can film anyone vandalizing or causing problems?

The LL is a female.  She and S are social buddies including past partying and Facebook friends.

I discussed this with a friend, and will likely move forward with it.  Thank you for the idea. 

[Iggy aka IG]

Aug 8, 2014 20:26:08 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I'm assuming you've been paying the 'rent' even though you don't have a signed lease. That would imply both you and the landlord are hunky-dory with a "month to month" type agreement.

Why didn't you renew you lease? Where you thinking you'd relocate and so wanted flexibility?

Yes, and I was told by a friend w/ a law background, though not in my state, the fact I've been paying, and the lease didn't renew, it's an implied agreement.

Neither of us approached the other at renewal time.  I'd be interested if other tenants were not renewed as well.  My former LL at the prior office location didn't renew an annual lease either, and I was there 8+ years.

[Bonny]

Can the LL kick me out for no reason now that the lease is up?

Usually unless there is some kind of state or local rent control.

I wouldn't escalate this any further. Find another place and give your LL 60 days notice. Even if you are "right" it won't help your business.

[Iggy aka IG]

Aug 9, 2014 13:47:52 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Can the LL kick me out for no reason now that the lease is up?

Usually unless there is some kind of state or local rent control.

I wouldn't escalate this any further. Find another place and give your LL 60 days notice. Even if you are "right" it won't help your business.

Ah, but that's the thing-we're having another record year, despite S and her friends attempts to slander and thwart efforts.    She's got the problem-she can move out.

[Tennesseer]

Aug 9, 2014 13:11:36 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

Aug 8, 2014 20:21:48 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Iggy-what would be the basis of your lawsuit if you have no lease outlining your legal rights as a tenant?

Yeah, I'm not thinking about a lawsuit-just wondering what my rights as a month to month tenant are.  Can the LL kick me out for no reason now that the lease is up?  The fact she is protecting S is going to look mighty suspicious if it ever gets to a restraining order level.  Heck, it makes her look unprofessional already because she is being complicit.

Yup.  No reason at all.  I believe she would have to give you thirty days notice to quit the premises, just like you would have to give her thirty days notice you are leaving.  That too is is implied when there is no signed yearly lease.  You are on a month-to-month lease.

[Iggy aka IG]

Aug 9, 2014 14:34:32 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Aug 9, 2014 13:11:36 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

Yeah, I'm not thinking about a lawsuit-just wondering what my rights as a month to month tenant are.  Can the LL kick me out for no reason now that the lease is up?  The fact she is protecting S is going to look mighty suspicious if it ever gets to a restraining order level.  Heck, it makes her look unprofessional already because she is being complicit.

Yup.  No reason at all.  I believe she would have to give you thirty days notice to quit the premises, just like you would have to give her thirty days notice you are leaving.  That too is is implied when there is no signed yearly lease.  You are on a month-to-month lease.

Say that happens, and I take her to court.  There is a police report on file about a fellow tenant's abuse, she did nothing, and subsequently told me to quit the premises.  See what I'm getting at?  Why would she put herself in that place?  Setting herself up for a lawsuit?

[Tennesseer]

Aug 9, 2014 14:43:32 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

Aug 9, 2014 14:34:32 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Yup.  No reason at all.  I believe she would have to give you thirty days notice to quit the premises, just like you would have to give her thirty days notice you are leaving.  That too is is implied when there is no signed yearly lease.  You are on a month-to-month lease.

Say that happens, and I take her to court.  There is a police report on file about a fellow tenant's abuse, she did nothing, and subsequently told me to quit the premises.  See what I'm getting at?  Why would she put herself in that place?  Setting herself up for a lawsuit?

Why would the landlord have to do anything?  You took the action against the other tenant. The 'dispute' is between you and the other tenant and not between you and the landlord.

[Iggy aka IG]

Aug 9, 2014 14:47:45 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Aug 9, 2014 14:43:32 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

Say that happens, and I take her to court.  There is a police report on file about a fellow tenant's abuse, she did nothing, and subsequently told me to quit the premises.  See what I'm getting at?  Why would she put herself in that place?  Setting herself up for a lawsuit?

Why would the landlord have to do anything?  You took the action against the other tenant. The 'dispute' is between you and the other tenant and not between you and the landlord.

Because it is the LL's responsibility to maintain a professional building environment.  I brought her a list of grievances going back 15 months against S, and she didn't do anything to help resolve the issue.  swamp, what say ye?

[swamp]

I say it's now a month to month and you are SOL. 

[geenamercile]

Iggy I understand why you want to stay there (seems like it has been really good for your business), but I'm also not sure if the landlord wants you out there is much you will be able to do about it.  I would think of either approaching the landlord and telling her you want to sign another yearlong lease and see what she says, and/or keep an eye out for another place you might want to move too.

Good luck and I hope your lawyer will be able to give you more positive information, but you may be SOL if your LL decides they want you out. 

[geenamercile]

Aug 9, 2014 14:50:37 GMT -5 Iggy aka IG said:

Aug 9, 2014 14:47:45 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Why would the landlord have to do anything?  You took the action against the other tenant. The 'dispute' is between you and the other tenant and not between you and the landlord.

Because it is the LL's responsibility to maintain a professional building environment.  I brought her a list of grievances going back 15 months against S, and she didn't do anything to help resolve the issue.  swamp, what say ye?

Are you the newest tenet?  Do any of the other tenets have issues with S, or is it only you.  Have made any other complaints about anything?  If you are the newest of the tenets and none of the other have had issues with S, or S with them the LL may decide that you are just a complainer or someone who likes to make mountains out of mole hills (not saying you are).  The LL may decided if that if the building environment was professional before you came. and now there are issues it may be better to get rid of the new tenet than the long term tenet.  Specially if there are no other complaints from other tenets.  In other words, tread carefully if you want to stay in that location.   

[Iggy aka IG]

I am second to the newest.

I don't have an issue with S, it's vice versa.  She cannot get past the fact they lost the ballot issue last fall.  She is pleasant with other people from my "side" when she sees them in the grocery store etc., it is only me who she has attacked, slandered, and cannot get past.

Between clients (she is a massage therapist, and is here maybe one or two days a week, if even that), she flits from her friend's office across the way, around the corner, and then next door to her DH's office.  I suspect she has complained about me, attempting to turn them against me since last year.

I have done nothing but be cordial to fellow suite mates.  Last fall I brought in fresh produce, at Christmas I bring in baked goods.  I am pleasant when passing others in the hallways.  The engineer group down the hall, the guy on the other side of me, and the picture shop gal and I get along well.

I reported her to the cops for two reasons:  1.  To have it on file if she becomes physical and 2.  To let her know I have had enough.

And I absolutely agree with you I should tread lightly, aka, keep my head down.

But, based on some comments above, all of this worry and theorizing could be in vain.  I hate moving.

[NoNamePerson]

Do they have businesses lined up to occupy this space? Maybe they know they have a good tennant, shit aside, and won't do anything rash. Hey, I can be optomistic can't I?

[bean29]

I work for a commercial property management company, but most of our buildings are industrial. I do not know of any situation where two of our tenants were fighting and we had to get involved. We do regularly get involved over parking issues and outside storage, even sometimes between our tenants and the neighbors even when we don't own the other building. One of our salesman called the neighboring property owner about some stuff on the property line that we thought had been dumped there. The building owner said, no it was his stuff on his property but he apologized and said he would clean it up.

Most of our leases go year to year when they expire. I think that is state law for a commercial lease in my state, but it could be the language in our standard lease. We only have a few month to month leases- mostly hard to lease properties.

You may assume your landlord will side with her over you, but I can not see my boss allowing that. If she does that to you, who is next?

A restraining order might work real well. We had a tenant over DH's business cry harassment to the Police when we started eviction proceedings once. I was paranoid if she got a restraining order it might prevent him from entering his office b /c you have to stay like. 50 ft away from the other person. I told dh not to talk to her and let the court handle everything.

[Iggy aka IG]

Met with a lawyer this AM.  Swamp was right (NOT that I had any doubts about her expertise!  ):  Bottom line I am month to month and am screwed.  In my state, the building manager can serve me with a 10 Day Notice to Quit.  The notice is not a legal document, they'd have to sue me.  We'd go to court or mitigation, but there are very few lines of defense when it comes to month or month arrangements.  Lawyer did ask if I want to obtain an order against S, but we'd have to prove physical harassment.  I don't want to go there.  I told her my goal is to protect my tenure here at the building.  Lawyer, too, is puzzled about why S has such a problem with me personally. 

So, my next quandary is if I want to (eventually) approach the manager to renew my annual lease, or let sleeping dogs lie.

So far, no word from building management, the fellow tenant down the hall, or the authorities.

Thanks, everyone.