Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 28, 2014 17:58:45 GMT -5
Does that clear things up for you?
Not really. How does mentioning in passing (and totally non-specifically) the existence of bigoted people equate to calling people "horseshit names"?
(FWIW, if you look back at that post in context I specifically mentioned "bigoted and uninformed" people because those were the terms that YOU used to describe the "other" group.)
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jul 28, 2014 18:00:58 GMT -5
Do you mean members who are secretly gay, or do you mean members who have "repented" and are now pretending they are straight? Either way, I guess it depends on how anti-gay the particular religious group is. Neither. I'm asking for each of your personal opinions. Not the opinion of the gay person or the church. I'm not being dense on purpose, but I still am not sure I get it. I grew up in a Christian denomination which teaches that homosexuality is a sin. They don't tolerate gay members, unless said member has "repented". "Repented" here means has turned from his/her sinful ways and is now living a respectable heterosexual life as God intended. If they aren't willing to repent, they are booted. So, if a gay person is a member, and they want to stay a member, they are certainly against gay marriage, at least out loud.
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quince
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Post by quince on Jul 28, 2014 18:03:02 GMT -5
People who are gay and are members of churches that are against gay marriage....what camp do they fall in?
Not enough information provided to give an answer.
If they are for gay marriage- the are for gay marriage. if they are against gay marriage, they are against gay marriage.
It is possible to be a member of a church that is against gay marriage, and be a person who is for gay marriage. It is possible to be a member of a church that is for gay marriage and be against gay marriage.
It is possible to be a republican who is for, and a democrat who is against.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 28, 2014 18:03:53 GMT -5
Do you mean members who are secretly gay, or do you mean members who have "repented" and are now pretending they are straight? Either way, I guess it depends on how anti-gay the particular religious group is. Neither. I'm asking for each of your personal opinions. Not the opinion of the gay person or the church. If you mean the church member hiding his/her sexual orientation because their church is against homosexuality, I would feel pity for the person and hope that one day they would stand up for themself. They are not an asshole but simply afraid of rejection by their church andcfamily. Ostracization can cause terrible damage to an individual..
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 28, 2014 18:06:04 GMT -5
Does that clear things up for you?
Not really. How does mentioning in passing (and totally non-specifically) the existence of bigoted people equate to calling people "horseshit names"? (FWIW, if you look back at that post in context I specifically mentioned "bigoted and uninformed" people because those were the terms that YOU used to describe the "other" group.) Again, I never said it was specific to anyone here. Damn...I get sick of typing the same thing over and over because people are in too much of a hurry to argue to actually read. I said they were horseshit terms used in the debate. And they are. Anyone is free to disagree.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 28, 2014 18:08:32 GMT -5
No. I disagree. It makes perfect sense. One group of people wants others to accept them as just "people" (which I agree with because they ARE just "people") yet that same group sees everyone who doesn't agree with them as bigoted, uninformed or some other horseshit buzzword of the day that just simply isn't true. I believe in God. I don't see those who don't as horrible people. Some are. No question - but that's not because of their beliefs - it's because of their character. Respect and tolerance goes both ways - whether you think someone is wrong or right.e I suppose it is somewhat of a circular argument, but valid just the same. Its interesting to reread this given the quote you found as I wouldn't have put them together. The quote *did not* say all people who don't approve of gays are bigoted or uninformed.
What it did address is the worst of the worst living situation when *some* people who are "bigoted and uniformed" are persecuting someone who is gay who doesn't believe being gay is bad.
Now bigoted and uninformed are not words I would have used, but if you are trying to illustrate the experience of being hated for being gay most people are not going to include people who disagree but generally don't say anything to gays that aren't friends and family plus don't hassle them either.
You made the leap to all, which IMO was not justified given what was posted.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 28, 2014 18:09:31 GMT -5
Again, I never said it was specific to anyone here. Damn...I get sick of typing the same thing over and over because people are in too much of a hurry to argue to actually read. I said they were horseshit terms used in the debate. And they are. Anyone is free to disagree.
To be honest I'm totally lost, but I'll let this one go before it gets too heated. My threads are never supposed to be about burning bridges with posters I like.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 18:09:45 GMT -5
I can't give you a simple answer Sroo. Apologies.
My knee-jerk answer is "neutral". But thinking about it for a minute, I don't think its fair that a person can commit to one person and share their lives with them for years, then possibly be treated as if they never existed or meant anything to that person if their partner is seriously ill or dies. So, I'm for the legal protections that marriage would give two people that make that kind of commitment to each other, regardless of their sexuaity.
As far as it being recognized by their particular religion, if that religion teaches against it, I think the church should walk as they talk. I'd have to think about it some more to give a better answer than that.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 28, 2014 18:13:21 GMT -5
I think that is where a lot of the devisiveness comes from. For some (on both sides) this becomes an either or situation (which you did start down that path) when in reality there is a whole lot of middle ground.
Well, here's the thing about middle ground (IMO). Sure, it exists (and it's easy to be in if you've never had cause to consider an issue) but once you are AWARE of an issue, it stands to reason that you think one side is more right than the other.
In other words, I absolutely accept that there are people in the middle. But I think that sooner or later, they'll be forced to choose a side.
Rape culture was like this for me. I was in "the middle" (which for me in that PARTICULAR case actually meant I was part of the problem, but that's another story) until I had the issue thrown in my face and was forced to really consider where I stood. Once I had the knowledge of how hurtful it was, I couldn't "un-know" it - does that make sense? At that point I had to choose a side.
Believe me, I'm not trying to get into a discussion about rape culture (for real), just using that as an example of an issue which, for me, allowed no middle ground once I understood it. I think a lot of issues are like that. It's only possible to be in the middle for so long.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 28, 2014 18:15:29 GMT -5
Again, I never said it was specific to anyone here. Damn...I get sick of typing the same thing over and over because people are in too much of a hurry to argue to actually read. I said they were horseshit terms used in the debate. And they are. Anyone is free to disagree.
To be honest I'm totally lost, but I'll let this one go before it gets too heated. My threads are never supposed to be about burning bridges with posters I like. I should have looked back a little further and quoted another post. Yours was just the first one I came to that contained some of the words I was speaking about. You and I are on the same side and I'm very glad. I'd hate to have you as my enemy! I was simply trying to say that nobody here was calling one another names - but they were terms used in the for/against debate. Mid said she didn't think such posts existed and I was just pointing out that they did. It's not your style to name-call and I was TRYING to make it clear that's not what I meant, but I failed miserably. It's my fault. I'm home from work with a sinus infection and woozy from the meds. I'm not being clear at all. I am very sorry if you took my posts to mean that you called someone here names. I don't think you would do that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 18:16:27 GMT -5
If we go with the argument that you either support or are against gay marriage, then which camp do gay people of religions who are opposed to gay marriage fall? I've already said I don't accept that setup because I think there are plenty of people who are neither for or against gay marriage. Maybe if you can tell me where you're going with this, I can share a more nuanced opinion. You actually just said what it wanted to get across. I've reread your posts in this thread. And upon rereading I don't think you intended to come off abrasive and accusatory. The second time I read your comments they did not come across this way. The first read though they did. I think that is where a lot of the devisiveness comes from. For some (on both sides) this becomes an either or situation (which you did start down that path) when in reality there is a whole lot of middle ground. At least I'm not the only one that was confused by the question lol. I had to imagine someone forcing me to choose one or the other to even begin to try to answer, since neutral wasn't presented as an option.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 28, 2014 18:16:41 GMT -5
Does that clear things up for you?
Not really. How does mentioning in passing (and totally non-specifically) the existence of bigoted people equate to calling people "horseshit names"? (FWIW, if you look back at that post in context I specifically mentioned "bigoted and uninformed" people because those were the terms that YOU used to describe the "other" group.) Again, I never said it was specific to anyone here. Damn...I get sick of typing you the same thing over and over because people are in too much of a hurry to argue to actually read. I said they were horseshit terms used in the debate. And they are. Anyone is free to disagree. GEL, I think you are making the mistake of "reading" what you meant versus what you actually wrote.
The confusion is because what you wrote is at odds with the less absolute position you are taking.
You wrote: "One group of people wants others to accept them as just "people" (which I agree with because they ARE just "people") yet that same group sees everyone who doesn't agree with them as bigoted, uninformed or some other horseshit buzzword of the day that just simply isn't true."
When one uses the word everyone, some of us are going to correctly fixate on the absoluteness of it all versus the attempt to call bigoted and uniformed horseshit buzzwords.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 28, 2014 18:25:01 GMT -5
It's my fault. I'm home from work with a sinus infection and woozy from the meds. I'm not being clear at all. I am very sorry if you took my posts to mean that you called someone here names. I don't think you would do that.
I'm sorry too - I jumped to conclusions about what you were saying. I'm glad we're on the same side too.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 28, 2014 18:26:30 GMT -5
I've obviously been making that same mistake all day, Opti. Since several people have misunderstood me, I can't help but accept it's my fault. There's someone I know IRL....seems like each week, she's having problems with someone. It's either her boss , or a co-worker, or her brother, or her mother, or a friend....yada yada yada. At some point, she might have to accept that the problem is HER and not the rest of the world. I think it's applicable here for me!
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 28, 2014 18:27:05 GMT -5
Its also a dangerously stupid idea taken to its logical extremes.
Should blacks who were being lynched have believed it was just as acceptable to believe "blacks should have less rights than whites and killing them was A OK?"
Should the Jews have said to Hitler's minions, that it was OK to have a difference of opinion on the supremeness of the white race and it was OK to kill and gas them because anything else wouldn't be 'tolerant'?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 28, 2014 18:27:22 GMT -5
It's my fault. I'm home from work with a sinus infection and woozy from the meds. I'm not being clear at all. I am very sorry if you took my posts to mean that you called someone here names. I don't think you would do that.
I'm sorry too - I jumped to conclusions about what you were saying. I'm glad we're on the same side too. Right back at ya!
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 28, 2014 18:29:49 GMT -5
I've obviously been making that same mistake all day, Opti. Since several people have misunderstood me, I can't help but accept it's my fault. There's someone I know IRL....seems like each week, she's having problems with someone. It's either her boss , or a co-worker, or her brother, or her mother, or a friend....yada yada yada. At some point, she might have to accept that the problem is HER and not the rest of the world. I think it's applicable here for me! Its easy to screw up while posting which is why I try to read my posts once again before posting. Pretty common to say X when you mean not X and vice versa.
Sorry to hear about the woozy sinus infection. I need to drink more and take some Mucinex to keep my sinuses in better shape.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 28, 2014 18:30:09 GMT -5
It's not uncommon to hear the line if you aren't for you are against in issues like this one. Firebird herself said in this thread if you are not voting for you are voting against.
I don't remember saying that but I do think it's true to a certain extent. If you've studied an issue and heard both sides, it's hard to stay neutral.
It's possible to be in the middle out of ignorance (and I don't mean that word in a bad way, just in the sense that if you've never had cause to consider an issue you probably aren't aware of all the pro/con arguments) but once you're aware of the issue, you're likely to form an opinion. And often, staying "neutral" at that point is the same as choosing a side.
Gotta go for now but again, thanks for the lively discussion. It may not seem like it but I actually do rethink my own opinions based on things I read here. I've changed my position on issues more than once due solely to posts on this board.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 18:33:14 GMT -5
Kudos to Firebird and GEL for squashing the disagreement/misunderstandings gracefully.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 28, 2014 18:34:48 GMT -5
Can someone please point out in which post(s) a poster was calling another poster an asshole or other "horseshit names"? I think I'm supposed to delete that sort of thing. I have been guilty of pointing out that there is nothing inherently negative in being any of those things. I think people who are those things should wear those labels loud and proud.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 28, 2014 18:35:49 GMT -5
Thanks, Pink! I'm passionate about some things AND I'm on drugs! Not a good combo for GEL. It's not hard for me to admit I'm wrong because I have a LOT of practice!
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 28, 2014 18:47:14 GMT -5
You keep making assumptions that if someone doesn't like gay/black/fat/disabled/stinky/short/ugly or whatever else people, they discriminate against them.
Yeah, if only we had a catchall word for not liking someone due to some random quality they have, e.g. race/body type/sexuality... I don't know if you truly don't understand or just doing this for kick and giggles, but you keep responding to imaginary posts, and since I usually get bored with walking and talking in circles, I am done. ... You keep making assumptions that if someone doesn't like gay/black/fat/disabled/stinky/short/ugly or whatever else people, they discriminate against them. ... Imaginary posts?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 28, 2014 18:55:26 GMT -5
Can someone please point out in which post(s) a poster was calling another poster an asshole or other "horseshit names"? I think I'm supposed to delete that sort of thing. I have been guilty of pointing out that there is nothing inherently negative in being any of those things. I think people who are those things should wear those labels loud and proud. So now assholes get their own PRIDE day?? When does the straight, white girl get to have a PRIDE day
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 28, 2014 19:47:14 GMT -5
I have been guilty of pointing out that there is nothing inherently negative in being any of those things. I think people who are those things should wear those labels loud and proud. So now assholes get their own PRIDE day?? When does the straight, white girl get to have a PRIDE day Pick a day and go for it.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 28, 2014 23:54:10 GMT -5
Sroo, the thing is that a lot of people couch their intolerance in "simple disagreement." While I do agree with you that there are a lot of people who legitimately have no opinion on gay marriage (probably because it hasn't personally affected them yet) there are also a lot of people who CLAIM to have no opinion - or to simply "disagree with the lifestyle" as a way of sugarcoating their intolerance. I know some of these people. They don't want to be seen as homophobic so they try to rework their opinion into something more socially acceptable. But dig just a little and they'll tell you what they really think.
It's pretty upsetting when you're having what you think is a nice conversation with someone at a party and then they lean over to whisper, "Geez, do they have to be so OUT about that?" upon seeing a gay couple walking in holding hands.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jul 30, 2014 6:36:48 GMT -5
I have been guilty of pointing out that there is nothing inherently negative in being any of those things. I think people who are those things should wear those labels loud and proud. So now assholes get their own PRIDE day?? When does the straight, white girl get to have a PRIDE day Every Wednesday during the free lunch buffet at Mr Happy's Gentleman's club where lap dances are only $5 per song.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 30, 2014 13:25:48 GMT -5
In their defense couples who hold hands are pretty creepy. Hugging and kissing in public is one thing, occasional light groping or patting each other on the ass is alright, but walking around holding hands is so junior high.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 13:32:19 GMT -5
I have been guilty of pointing out that there is nothing inherently negative in being any of those things. I think people who are those things should wear those labels loud and proud. So now assholes get their own PRIDE day?? When does the straight, white girl get to have a PRIDE day I think they thought they had us covered with "Assholes Day"
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 30, 2014 13:46:57 GMT -5
We will truly be a great America when we don't need a proud to be X day for anyone because everyone has been accepted by society for who they are. Once no one cares about the race, sexual orientation, etc. of people then we won't need parades/days for certain groups. People are just people so I hope to see an America where we just have a celebration of life, love and happiness. I seriously doubt a hundred years from now anyone is going to give a crap if gay people want to get married and why some do now is completely beyond me. Throughout history you have had people afraid of change. Not sure what they will make up to be afraid of a hundred years from now but I am certain it will be something.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 30, 2014 13:57:57 GMT -5
I have been guilty of pointing out that there is nothing inherently negative in being any of those things. I think people who are those things should wear those labels loud and proud. So now assholes get their own PRIDE day?? When does the straight, white girl get to have a PRIDE day I think it's known as Valentine's Day.
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