EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Aug 2, 2014 17:53:27 GMT -5
I think a jury is going to end up deciding those facts one way or another.
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ZaireinHD
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Post by ZaireinHD on Aug 2, 2014 17:56:14 GMT -5
at this time I do not know why or what was the urgency that Gardner HAD to be arrested and taken into custody! not sure of what he did to cause police attention? other than some cop probably wanted to arrest him and Gardner was sick of the shit! when cop could also just issue a fine or ticket. I do hope the charge was something more serious than selling loose cigarettes
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Dec 3, 2014 15:22:55 GMT -5
No indictment!
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Dec 3, 2014 16:01:42 GMT -5
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Dec 3, 2014 17:10:37 GMT -5
What??? That is RIDICULOUS.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Dec 3, 2014 17:11:53 GMT -5
When I believe the Police are right, I will say so. When I believe they are out of control, I will say so. I think this is terrible. He was selling cigarettes. Wow. That is so wrong.
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siralynn
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Post by siralynn on Dec 3, 2014 17:40:53 GMT -5
Disgraceful.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 3, 2014 23:25:11 GMT -5
This is big government run amok. Who called the cops? His competitors. Why is the law in place to prevent him selling "loosies"? His competitors. This is about taxes, pure and simple. The guy was evading taxes, and because of the system we live under, his competitors were able to use the violence of the state to kill him; and it pleased the state to use violence not merely to compel compliance from him, but to strike fear in the hearts of would-be tax cheats. The government is just a legalized version of the mafia. He was undercutting them- skimming, if you will. So, they killed him.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 3, 2014 23:33:22 GMT -5
I think it's time to re-examine under what circumstances the police can make an arrest. Frankly, I think that the average beat cop ought not be out enforcing tax law. A lot of these cases, people cry "resisting arrest" but why not resist a bullshit arrest? This is about tax law and frankly, when you boil it down, it's big government run amok. Why in the hell do we need LAW that says you can't sell loose cigarettes? Answer: tax revenue. Why should a beat cop be enforcing tax law? Have the NYC version of BATF (you know there's gotta be one) and/or code enforcement come by and cite the guy. Then, if he refuses to pay his fines and comply with the law, seal up his shop. I don't like property rights violations any more than the next guy, but I do not think an arrest is the way to handle this. And I think it's great that much to the chagrin of law enforcement and the powers that be, that we live in a country where people don't just roll over and go to jail like we're in Turkey, Iran, China, or Russia. Resisting arrest is not an automatic bad-guy signal to me. Sometimes it's a stupid system / stupid cop signal. By the way, did you know that under this law if you are arrested and charged, you don't get a trial? You get an "administrative tribunal". So, it's all the more reason to refuse to comply with the attempted arrest. Why should we cheer someone being arrested and charged who isn't even going to get a trial?
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Dec 4, 2014 7:00:54 GMT -5
They knew who he was. They interacted with him before and he was never violent. So, why couldn't they simply send him a ticket or fine in the mail and go from there? Do we really want the Iron Fist of Govt KILLING people for selling homemade cigs or whatever? What's next are they going to tackle and kill grandma for having an Illegal Yard sale or your grass wasn't mowed short enough to suit the borough or whatever. The punishment is supposed to fit the crime. How this isn't something worthy of indictment, I have no idea.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Dec 4, 2014 10:08:28 GMT -5
Apparently, as they were all piled on the guy, he said (11 different times) that he couldn't breathe. He was ignored. Maybe they thought he was just joking around.
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Frappuccino
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Post by Frappuccino on Dec 4, 2014 10:49:51 GMT -5
If we are picking and choosing what laws we will follow and when police can detain us, i will drive in the carpool lanes by myself and passively resist being pulled over or being detained. Those little spray painted diamonds in the lanes are stupid. Since i'm an 800 pound whale, the police better not touch me because i might die.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 4, 2014 10:52:17 GMT -5
how many cops pounced on that guy? six? five?
jesus. what has law enforcement come to in the US?
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Dec 4, 2014 12:05:46 GMT -5
Dear God. Seconds before the backup arrived the guy was just standing there with the one cop. Granted, Eric was yelling and pissed off, but he was clearly not being violent. He was not running away. He wasn't threatening anyone. I hate this. It is such a tragedy that those who are supposed to serve and protect are just killing people off. This guy's death is WAY more suspect than Michael Brown's. I cannot believe the grand jury found that killing justified.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Dec 4, 2014 21:48:01 GMT -5
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 4, 2014 22:23:04 GMT -5
www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/04/choke-hold-cop-pantaleo-sued/19899461/
The white New York City police officer whose choke hold led to the death of an unarmed black man has been sued three times for allegedly violating the constitutional rights of other blacks he and fellow cops arrested
Darren Collins and Tommy Rice alleged in a 2013 federal court lawsuit that Pantaleo and at least four other officers subjected them to "humiliating and unlawful strip searches in public view" after handcuffing them during a March 2012 arrest on Staten Island.
The court complaint charged that the cops, searching for illegal drugs, "pulled down the plaintiffs' pants and underwear, and touched and searched their genital areas, or stood by while this was done in their presence."
Pantaleo and three of the officers repeated the searches after they took the suspects to Staten Island's 120th police precinct, the complaint alleged.
Charges against Collins and Rice, who said they had done nothing wrong, ultimately were dismissed and sealed. The city settled their lawsuit last year, court records show.
To put it mildly, many police on Staten Island have been playing fast, loose and violently with the public they seem to have forgotten they are sworn to protect," wrote Colihan. "After litigating about 200 of these civil rights matters in the Eastern and Southern Districts of New York since 1977, I have seen no interest by the managers of the New York City Police Department, or anyone employed by the city of New York, in doing anything to stop this."
Quite a list of complaints, payouts, and sealed records. Nothing to see here- move along.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Dec 5, 2014 9:14:32 GMT -5
No indictment! You got to be joking me Nope, no indictment. Police investigating police, works everytime. Honesty and ethics In police, government, courts, big business, and Wall St. Nope, no hope in finding there. Grand juries will indict 99% of the time. If It Involves police Almost never.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2014 9:38:16 GMT -5
I think the image of a police officer killing someone is the image that should be prominently displayed with every new law that is proposed.
It's not that I am advocating "picking and choosing" which laws to follow. The question I am asking is one we should all ask: is this law worth the violence of the state being visited on individual citizens?
The fact is that government is force. Laws are not reasonable or rational, they are a gun pointed at the head of the people. Ultimately, when laws are not followed, and citizens do not comply either with a law, or with the armed enforcers of the law, they are imprisoned or killed.
That is why we should pass laws sparingly, and consider carefully whether we need the veritable mountain of federal, state, and local laws and the tens of millions of bureaucrats and armed enforcers at every level to ensure they are followed.
I'm not advocating for picking and choosing which laws to follow, I'm advocating for perspective and restraint in enforcement. I'm advocating for acknowledging when a law is a practical failure. The alternative is to advocate for killing in the name of enforcing each and every law to the letter.
There's a more pragmatic question, too- one of resources. What of enforcing the carpool lane? At some point, it's just not worth it. What happens when you use the carpool lane and you do not stop? Eventually, somewhere, and some point they catch you. What if while being arrested you do not comply? In the end, you would be imprisoned or killed for violating a carpool lane rule. Oh, they'd dress it up as failure to yield, resisting arrest, etc. but what it comes down to is a shoot to kill order for car pool lane violations.
I'm not saying pick and choose. I'm saying that laws are not worth killing for.
What you're actually pointing out is that if these rules were not enforced- if there was not ultimately the threat of death- there would be mass non-compliance. That should tell you something about the kind of country we live in. The state can't gain voluntary compliance because there are too many laws and regulations, most of which either make no sense, or which confiscate our earnings and our property. We live every day with a gun to our heads put there by a state that says: do what we tell you to do, or we will kill you.
This is not liberty. We are not free.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2014 9:39:41 GMT -5
When it comes to payouts- there's nobody backing me up. I have to carry commercial general liability insurance. Perhaps we should impose the same requirements on police. No insurance, no badge.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 9:44:25 GMT -5
This is big government run amok. Who called the cops? His competitors. Why is the law in place to prevent him selling "loosies"? His competitors. This is about taxes, pure and simple. The guy was evading taxes, and because of the system we live under, his competitors were able to use the violence of the state to kill him; and it pleased the state to use violence not merely to compel compliance from him, but to strike fear in the hearts of would-be tax cheats. The government is just a legalized version of the mafia. He was undercutting them- skimming, if you will. So, they killed him. it pleased the state to use violence not merely to compel compliance from him, but to strike fear in the hearts of black would-be tax cheats
Fixed
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2014 9:59:49 GMT -5
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -George Washington
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2014 10:37:26 GMT -5
There is no evidence he was targeted because he was black. It was a local store owner who ratted him out to police. The reality is that he wasn't taking business from a local shop-- confiscatory tobacco taxes disproportionately affect poor tobacco users and many cannot afford $15 per pack (I remember when a carton was $12) for smokes.
Whatever government does, eventually like water seeks its own level, a willing buyer and a willing seller are going to come together at the true market price. We call these meetings "black markets" to imply there's something evil about them, my question is: is it "evil" to evade the state? Should the state be empowered to kill people for .75 cent tax on cigarettes?
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Dec 5, 2014 10:38:20 GMT -5
There is no evidence he was targeted because he was black. It was a local store owner who ratted him out to police. The reality is that he wasn't taking business from a local shop-- confiscatory tobacco taxes disproportionately affect poor tobacco users and many cannot afford $15 per pack (I remember when a carton was $12) for smokes. Whatever government does, eventually like water seeks its own level, a willing buyer and a willing seller are going to come together at the true market price. We call these meetings "black markets" to imply there's something evil about them, my question is: is it "evil" to evade the state? Should the state be empowered to kill people for .75 cent tax on cigarettes? Not evil. Just illegal.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2014 13:51:28 GMT -5
There is no evidence he was targeted because he was black. It was a local store owner who ratted him out to police. The reality is that he wasn't taking business from a local shop-- confiscatory tobacco taxes disproportionately affect poor tobacco users and many cannot afford $15 per pack (I remember when a carton was $12) for smokes. Whatever government does, eventually like water seeks its own level, a willing buyer and a willing seller are going to come together at the true market price. We call these meetings "black markets" to imply there's something evil about them, my question is: is it "evil" to evade the state? Should the state be empowered to kill people for .75 cent tax on cigarettes? Not evil. Just illegal. Helping slaves escape was illegal. Hiding Jews was illegal.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Dec 5, 2014 13:52:08 GMT -5
Helping slaves escape was illegal. Hiding Jews was illegal. And those were not evil.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 5, 2014 13:59:31 GMT -5
The point is that notions of legality are not attached to any value system, so saying something is illegal- the implication being the police have a duty to do something about it- is not necessarily so. At what point do the police have a MORAL duty to do the right thing and not kill someone for tax evasion?
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Dec 5, 2014 14:03:12 GMT -5
The point is that notions of legality are not attached to any value system, so saying something is illegal- the implication being the police have a duty to do something about it- is not necessarily so. At what point do the police have a MORAL duty to do the right thing and not kill someone for tax evasion? they have a duty to do their job. If they want to get moral about it they can resign.
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