milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Jul 17, 2014 10:20:24 GMT -5
I interpret her investigation and putting him on admin duties as the precursor to formal documentation, but she could be all bark and no bite.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 10, 2024 10:18:00 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 10:21:01 GMT -5
I guess we'll have to wait and see..
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 10, 2024 10:18:00 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 10:21:53 GMT -5
I interpret her investigation and putting him on admin duties as the precursor to formal documentation, but she could be all bark and no bite. and that's why I suggested he check with HR regarding her ability to put him on admin duties....who will do radiation safety inspecitons?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 10, 2024 10:18:00 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 11:51:35 GMT -5
"What Phoenix does have going is that there was a track record of (I'm assuming) good performance in this position prior to the new boss. "
I think that was mostly due to a more hands off boss.
|
|
wvugurl26
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 15:25:30 GMT -5
Posts: 21,886
Member is Online
|
Post by wvugurl26 on Jul 17, 2014 12:02:51 GMT -5
I believe he's said that two safety areas where merged and put under one manager. His manager is experienced in the other but knows nothing about radiation/nuclear safety. I'd say her micromanaging and actions result from not understanding what he does and therefore misinterpreting some of his actions. Seems like DQ's example of the old boss that have never worked in an animal room and therefore had no idea of what it involved.
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 48,095
Member is Online
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 17, 2014 12:09:27 GMT -5
Seems like DQ's example of the old boss that have never worked in an animal room and therefore had no idea of what it involved.
She was still able to get me terminated over it. I didn't have any proof that what I said was true. She thought I was wasting time and trying to get out of doing work in the lab. In reality being in a facility where the ARF is hands off managing a 26 line colony is a full time job by itself.
What I should have done is sit down with her and go over the policy information with her and explain where I was going/what I was doing. Then she would have known I was following the rules and not just dicking around.
Phoenix's supervisor doesn't know that he was "going off experience" to her it looks like he flaked on an issue and she's following what is outlined in the book.
Technically here violating any safety procedure/protocol is a fireable offense. 99% of the time common sense rules and you just get a lecture/slap on the hand but it's well within the boss's rights to put you probation and investigate whether you agree or not.
Which is what appears to be happening in Phoenix's case and unfortunately once you start down this road it's almost impossible to get off it. In hindsight he should have kept his nose to the book no matter how pointless he feels it would have been. Then she would have no cause for her current actions.
Since he didn't his best bet is to sit quietly and let her finish her "investigation" and make it all formal so he can try to dispute it. I don't really know how much ground he'll have because technically he did violate the rules by not documenting properly.
|
|
wvugurl26
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 15:25:30 GMT -5
Posts: 21,886
Member is Online
|
Post by wvugurl26 on Jul 17, 2014 12:17:29 GMT -5
I suppose she could call the nuclear regulatory IG to investigate. A guy who used to work here did a stint with that IG shop. It is unfortunate to have an unknowledgeable supervisor.
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 17, 2014 12:31:12 GMT -5
This is a problem when you have people with management experience who do not necessarily have technical experience.
My second job out of college, I had a boss who was an MD. Only problem was that he had absolutely NO idea how long things took, and because he was deficient in this, an ambitious tech that he had took advantage of this and made up data (said tech wanted into medical school and what he discovered was important enough that this was his key in). The amount of data he acquired was impossible to acquire, because his experiments took time to set up. Hell, it took a full week of just growing enough cells to run the experiment, so running 3-4 experiments a week was impossible. But because the boss was an MD and didn't understand this, then producing this amount of data wasn't a red flag to the him.....particularly since he had never did this amount of work in the lab. He had the book knowledge of what was done, but not the technical know how.
It took to the third publication (the first one was published, the second in press) where someone in the lab read the published article and did the math. He realized that doing this amount of work was impossible with the system, brought it to the attention of the lab manager, then the fecal matter hit the fan. The third article was pulled, they couldn't stop the second.
My last boss actually worked in the lab with me several days/week, so he had a really good feel for the amount of work things took. But when he became more administrative, I still gave him the head's up when stuff turned to shit and what I was doing about it.
Phoenix.....you might want to suggest this to your manager. I know that this is probably too late, but it might give her an idea of the scope of your job. Could you ask her if she would like to shadow you for a couple days? It just *might* help her understand things more, particularly since she does not have the experience in your field. Not only this, she could see how you interact with other entities.
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 48,095
Member is Online
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 17, 2014 12:47:38 GMT -5
Yeah it does suck. You need to be able to recognize it quickly and take action on your part. Unfortunately often times you don't realize it until it's too late and you've hung yourself. There isn't a lot you can do once you've handed your supervisor the rope. Evidence is on her side not his.
He might get lucky and win if the IG guy supports him, but I suspect she'll be watching him like a hawk for the next "violation" according to the book and bring down the hammer. She's not going to just forgive and forget because of a technicality.
IF he gets the admiration duties lifted Phoenix is going to have to do everything 100% by the book. Which I know can be a giant PITA since the rules are usually written by someone who has never actually had to implement them, but his supervisor now has his number and all she has to do is reference the rule book if he decides to do something different. It's his word against hers and like I said technically he did violate the rules which means even if he thinks it's BS she has a case against him.
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 17, 2014 12:55:51 GMT -5
And vice versa. Now that DH has his management degree he appreciates much more that his boss was trying to balance competing interests and had different priorities. It's trite but true - communication is key. It is. I always thought it was funny that my boss had a whole series of management books on his bookcase, along side of his science texts. While he did not have the formal education, I know he used a lot of the principles in order to manage everything. TD is running into this now. He's just lost his manager and they keep looking to him. He does not want this job and he has told them this repeatedly. I really think that if they try forcing the issue, he'd be looking for a new employer.
|
|
chen35
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 6, 2011 19:35:45 GMT -5
Posts: 2,312
|
Post by chen35 on Jul 17, 2014 13:01:44 GMT -5
How bad would it be to sit his boss down, tell her he knows they got off on the wrong foot, that he has some personality quirks that he working on, but wants her to be aware of? That he didn't intentionally mean to offend her, but he knows sometimes he rubs people the wrong way?
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 48,095
Member is Online
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 17, 2014 13:08:29 GMT -5
At this stage I am betting it is going to be too little to late. He was able to start keeping his nose clean by honoring the white board and stuff. Now she's going after him over something that whether he agrees or not is legit if you strictly follow the rules.
I don't think he's going to be able to make this go away by apologizing and offering to start fresh.
He could try it but personally I think he'd be better off at this stage keeping his head down and seeing if this results in a formal disciplinary hearing. For now do everything she says and leave the burden of proof on her.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 10, 2024 10:18:00 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 13:14:37 GMT -5
How bad would it be to sit his boss down, tell her he knows they got off on the wrong foot, that he has some personality quirks that he working on, but wants her to be aware of? That he didn't intentionally mean to offend her, but he knows sometimes he rubs people the wrong way? This would be my suggestion as well. As someone with some Aspie type personality traits, I know I sometimes come off strange to people who don't really know me well. Sometimes simply explaining that to people can be a great help. Maybe go the mediation route, but with some introduction about Aspberger's thrown in for your bosses education. Maybe she sees your Aspie traits as "weird" or "conceited." Maybe a bit of education for her would help that. And, if you are an "engineering" type, they can have a bit of the weirdness as well. With my previous post, I didn't mean that you are a problem, but rather that you seem to be the common denominator. But, if you can figure out what is up your boss's butt, then maybe you can salvage this situation. Then again, I had a boss once who was a total bitch, and had to wait out her getting transferred elsewhere. A few were not so lucky and ended up leaving because of her.
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 17, 2014 13:20:47 GMT -5
How bad would it be to sit his boss down, tell her he knows they got off on the wrong foot, that he has some personality quirks that he working on, but wants her to be aware of? That he didn't intentionally mean to offend her, but he knows sometimes he rubs people the wrong way? He tried this. We had the meeting I talked about on Friday.
It went about as well as could be expected.
I explained how, historically I had a lot of independence in setting my own schedule or prioritizing my own tasks. That the recent issues were miscommunications and misunderstandings based on the rapid changes that have occurred, and that I recognized I needed to make changes in order to bring things more in line with her expectations.
She basically said the reason she is writing those things is because she noticed a "trend." I didn't say it at the time, but I should have, gone back to the misunderstandings and just say the transition period hasn't been very long, and the fact that there's a "trend" is just because of miscommunications. I followed WWBG's advice about not saying anything in regards to appealing the a letter of reprimand or anything about insubordination, instead focusing on being as disarming and not confrontational as possible.
She did seem far less confrontational about the whole thing, and didn't talk about insubordination at all. I suspect she talked to HR and they told her to soften up on that language, because as I said, you have to prove it. She said she would consider what I said when moving forward, though she still will write a letter of counseling or letter of reprimand.
I've done about all I can do at this point. If she writes a letter of counseling (which I think is more likely) I'll just say "no hard feelings" and drop it. If she does write a letter of reprimand, I'll appeal and issue grievance at that time. I will try to do my best to keep a positive attitude and smooth things over. Things are going to be hard enough without antagonizing the situation further. And I'll have to be constantly vigilant about being "perfect." But still, I know I can't trust her to let this go, and in the meantime, I'm going to continue aggressively applying for other jobs to get the hell outta Dodge ASAP.
|
|
cktc
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 19, 2013 22:15:31 GMT -5
Posts: 3,202
|
Post by cktc on Jul 17, 2014 13:31:11 GMT -5
So she gets 2-4 months to build a case against you before you can react? I’d be inclined to go the mediation route. Establish that you want to resolve this, and figure out what the issues are so you have more time to work on them, build your own case, or if it is serious, find a new job.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 10, 2024 10:18:00 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 13:45:59 GMT -5
The mat leave replacement I hired for my assistant's position had Aspergers. Thank goodness after he got the position he had his wife come in and explain it to me and how best to deal with him. He drove everyone in the place nuts. His social skills are very bad. And you can not be remotely subtle with him. Outsiders that heard me speak to him thought I was totally obnoxious. He didn't. He was great at the details of the work and did a good job. But he was incredibly difficult to have around.
|
|
greeniis10
Well-Known Member
Joined: May 9, 2012 12:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 1,834
|
Post by greeniis10 on Jul 17, 2014 14:14:08 GMT -5
The mat leave replacement I hired for my assistant's position had Aspergers. Thank goodness after he got the position he had his wife come in and explain it to me and how best to deal with him. He drove everyone in the place nuts. His social skills are very bad. And you can not be remotely subtle with him. Outsiders that heard me speak to him thought I was totally obnoxious. He didn't. He was great at the details of the work and did a good job. But he was incredibly difficult to have around. That's awesome that you were open-minded, professional, and took the time to educate yourself about the matter! Unfortunately, a lot of people aren't willing to do so. Since Phoenix's supervisor is young it seems to me that maybe she hasn't had any experience with people (or children) who have Aspergers, autism, ADD/ADHD, etc. If she wants to become an effective manager I believe she'll need to do what you did.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 10, 2024 10:18:00 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 14:20:24 GMT -5
The mat leave replacement I hired for my assistant's position had Aspergers. Thank goodness after he got the position he had his wife come in and explain it to me and how best to deal with him. He drove everyone in the place nuts. His social skills are very bad. And you can not be remotely subtle with him. Outsiders that heard me speak to him thought I was totally obnoxious. He didn't. He was great at the details of the work and did a good job. But he was incredibly difficult to have around. That's awesome that you were open-minded, professional, and took the time to educate yourself about the matter! Unfortunately, a lot of people aren't willing to do so. Since Phoenix's supervisor is young it seems to me that maybe she hasn't had any experience with people (or children) who have Aspergers, autism, ADD/ADHD, etc. If she wants to become an effective manager I believe she'll need to do what you did. And Phoenix will have to do something like this guy and his wife did. If they hadn't told me I would have had no idea it was a disability and would have totally hated him.
|
|
chen35
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 6, 2011 19:35:45 GMT -5
Posts: 2,312
|
Post by chen35 on Jul 17, 2014 14:23:08 GMT -5
How bad would it be to sit his boss down, tell her he knows they got off on the wrong foot, that he has some personality quirks that he working on, but wants her to be aware of? That he didn't intentionally mean to offend her, but he knows sometimes he rubs people the wrong way? He tried this. We had the meeting I talked about on Friday.
It went about as well as could be expected.
I explained how, historically I had a lot of independence in setting my own schedule or prioritizing my own tasks. That the recent issues were miscommunications and misunderstandings based on the rapid changes that have occurred, and that I recognized I needed to make changes in order to bring things more in line with her expectations.
She basically said the reason she is writing those things is because she noticed a "trend." I didn't say it at the time, but I should have, gone back to the misunderstandings and just say the transition period hasn't been very long, and the fact that there's a "trend" is just because of miscommunications. I followed WWBG's advice about not saying anything in regards to appealing the a letter of reprimand or anything about insubordination, instead focusing on being as disarming and not confrontational as possible.
She did seem far less confrontational about the whole thing, and didn't talk about insubordination at all. I suspect she talked to HR and they told her to soften up on that language, because as I said, you have to prove it. She said she would consider what I said when moving forward, though she still will write a letter of counseling or letter of reprimand.
I've done about all I can do at this point. If she writes a letter of counseling (which I think is more likely) I'll just say "no hard feelings" and drop it. If she does write a letter of reprimand, I'll appeal and issue grievance at that time. I will try to do my best to keep a positive attitude and smooth things over. Things are going to be hard enough without antagonizing the situation further. And I'll have to be constantly vigilant about being "perfect." But still, I know I can't trust her to let this go, and in the meantime, I'm going to continue aggressively applying for other jobs to get the hell outta Dodge ASAP.I don't know if I would consider that talking about it. I meant more talking about how he is on the autism spectrum, and that's why he can come off as rude. If you talk to me and say it was a bunch of misunderstandings, and then we continue to have the same misunderstandings, I'm not necessarily going to get it.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 10, 2024 10:18:00 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 14:24:42 GMT -5
I don't know that Phoenix has the same symptoms, but the guy I was dealing would do things like question decisions I made that were not his concern or something I had the time or inclination to explain to him. The way he did it was abrasive also. He would "correct" me in front of others, and be wrong about his correction. I would give him direction and he would debate with me about whether he should do it that way, or prioritise the tasks in that order. It's funny when it's Sheldon on the Big Bang Theory, not so funny dealing with it in RL.
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 48,095
Member is Online
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 17, 2014 14:27:05 GMT -5
I meant more talking about how he is on the autism spectrum, and that's why he can come off as rude
I thin that might have helped in the beginning. Latebloomer said her employee brought his wife in right away to explain things and avoid misunderstandings. This issue with Phoenix and his boss has been going on for awhile.
Right now she's got him on a technical job violation, I don't think she'll write it off because he explains that he has Asperger's.
She might have understood why he didn't get the whole purpose of her whiteboard and been willing to forgive it but he didn't mention it then. She's got a juicier tidbit to hang him on now and he shouldn't need it explained to him since it's outlined in the procedure book, he actively chose to ignore procedure.
I don't know if the OP mentioned it but did he admit to his boss that he didn't follow procedure? If he did he's SOL. If he hasn't then he needs to make sure to keep his mouth shut, denial is his only hope.
|
|
chen35
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 6, 2011 19:35:45 GMT -5
Posts: 2,312
|
Post by chen35 on Jul 17, 2014 15:23:28 GMT -5
That's all true, it could be too late to fix it.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 10, 2024 10:18:00 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 15:59:59 GMT -5
I have no better advice than what has already been given. Just sorry you are having to deal with all of this. It sucks!
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 17, 2014 18:18:13 GMT -5
Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you do your job, if you and your boss have clashing personalities. It sounds like you function better as an independent and she's a micromanager. You also have been at your job long enough that you "know what you're doing". She is brand new and the only thing she has to go by is the book. So ideally you should have been 100% following the book for every single thing you did. Then there would have been no room for her to discipline you because you could point to the rule book and show you followed it to the letter. I realized that with my last boss I should have documented everything I did in the animal room. She thought I was hiding down there to avoid work. I assumed she understood how the university's animal handling system worked. She was coming from an institute where you didn't have to lift a finger. I didn't realize my mistake till she told me it should only take me 8 hours or less per week to manage the colony and by then it was too late. There's not a lot you can do once it gets to the point it has. You might be able to appeal and win on a technicality but you really need to weigh whether or not it's worth being right. You're not going to make any friends if she loses, she has the power to make your life miserable. Looking for another job might be your best bet and take what you've learned from dealing with this boss with you. Yes, that's a good point. I think that's the heart of the issue that caused all this. When you do a job for a long time, you know things others, including your boss, may not know about the specific areas under your responsibility. I made the mistake of making a choice based on experience, she doesn't have the technical or specific background I do, she just has "the book" and is making hay with the fact I didn't follow the book. It doesn't matter if the choice I made was the correct one (as I said, everything I've gathered since indicates it was). You can't assume your boss knows as much about your work as you do, and I think that was a critical miscalculation on my part. It's just one of those life lessons in managing people, just hope it doesn't cost me too dearly *sigh*.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 17, 2014 18:23:52 GMT -5
Phoenix sounds like you maybe come across as aloof and uncooperative at times, and your new boss is fairly paranoid so she interpreted this as being hostile to her, and she now examines everything you say and do looking for proof that you are trying to sabatoge her. It's a personality clash, and I don't think it's fixable. I think you're right to pursue new job opportunities as soon as possible. I did the same job at the same company for four different facilities managers over about 10 years. One thought I was fabulous, two thought I was great, one hated me (but he also hated all the other female managers, and all the black employees). Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you do your job, if you and your boss have clashing personalities. Yeah. I got along so great with my previous bosses because they let me be so independent. The fact I was so independent motivated me to do a better job because I didn't want to let them down. My new boss is a classic micro manager, and we haven't gotten along well at all.
I'm concerned though. On the surface, she's petite and laughs a lot, one of those real personable sorts. I think a lot of people would be naturally more inclined to take her side over mine, mean old phoenix. But it's clear she definitely has a mean streak, but I'm not sure anyone else can see it.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 17, 2014 18:30:33 GMT -5
I don't know what it means, it could mean nothing.
Yesterday, late in the day, she was obviously very stressed and agitated about something, even screamed out in frustration. She then left early and took leave for the next two days (today and tomorrow).
On another note, I've been assigned to administrative duties. Yesterday she had me move all my stuff out of the office I used to have and into the cube right across from her. I had been keeping it as an alternate work location for when the contractors showed up. Today I was told to help out facilities folks put furniture together, and I spent the rest of the time organizing all the stuff I brought up.
I know that doing something dramatic won't help my case any, but at the same time, it just feels wrong, just efficiently doing whatever they tell me to do. Sometimes it just feels like I'm a lamb going to the slaughter, and the end result of all this work and professionalism and courtesy I'm giving them will be a boot in the ass. Maybe I'm not saying it right, but it just feels like I'm doing a lot of work and taking the high road, and I wonder if it really will make a difference in the end.
|
|
kjto1
Established Member
Joined: Jan 13, 2013 13:47:03 GMT -5
Posts: 485
|
Post by kjto1 on Jul 17, 2014 18:40:28 GMT -5
I know that doing something dramatic won't help my case any, but at the same time, it just feels wrong, just efficiently doing whatever they tell me to do. Sometimes it just feels like I'm a lamb going to the slaughter, and the end result of all this work and professionalism and courtesy I'm giving them will be a boot in the ass. Maybe I'm not saying it right, but it just feels like I'm doing a lot of work and taking the high road, and I wonder if it really will make a difference in the end. I'm not sure I understand this part of your post. What are your options? Do something dramatic (like what?) and get fired? I think you need to do what you need to do to hold onto this job until you have a new job. This is a tough situation to be in.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,912
|
Post by zibazinski on Jul 17, 2014 18:40:28 GMT -5
Get a lawyer NOW. The best defense is a good offense.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 17, 2014 18:50:17 GMT -5
I know that doing something dramatic won't help my case any, but at the same time, it just feels wrong, just efficiently doing whatever they tell me to do. Sometimes it just feels like I'm a lamb going to the slaughter, and the end result of all this work and professionalism and courtesy I'm giving them will be a boot in the ass. Maybe I'm not saying it right, but it just feels like I'm doing a lot of work and taking the high road, and I wonder if it really will make a difference in the end. I'm not sure I understand this part of your post. What are your options? Do something dramatic (like what?) and get fired? I think you need to do what you need to do to hold onto this job until you have a new job. This is a tough situation to be in. Yeah, I know it's a foolish notion.
It's kind of a morbid analogy, but during the holocaust, the Jews meekly went along with what their captors made them do, until the every end. The Nazi's kept them in the dark about their ultimate plans, and they all went long to the end, doing what they were supposed to because they didn't want to make it worse. It's a form of Stockholm syndrome, identifying with your captors.
As I said, I know I don't have much of a choice, but going to all this work to be professional, be efficient, be a "good boy," sometimes I just wonder if it's going to pay off is all.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,912
|
Post by zibazinski on Jul 17, 2014 18:54:16 GMT -5
Well, you know what happened to the Jews. Get a clue.
|
|