Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Jul 16, 2014 15:15:45 GMT -5
Is this the same boss that wanted you to log out when you went to the bathroom (or anywhere else) so she knew where you were, or am I confused with another poster?
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Jul 16, 2014 15:20:16 GMT -5
Is this the same boss that wanted you to log out when you went to the bathroom (or anywhere else) so she knew where you were, or am I confused with another poster? You've got the right one
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 15:38:36 GMT -5
Phoenix I think you've gotten a lot of good advice and I don't really have anything to add, except to document, document, document and try to CYA.
I'm so sorry you are going through this, and I truly hope it works out for you. I think you are wise to try to find another job and I hope you find one soon.
All the best to you.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Jul 16, 2014 15:47:45 GMT -5
It definitely sounds like she has it in for you. With any luck, the upper management will realize you weren't a "problem" until she came and realize where the true issue is. But it does make you wonder- how does someone without the necessary knowledge go about investigating whether you handled it correctly, if there are no protocols in place for that incident?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 16, 2014 16:10:37 GMT -5
Is it possible she spoke to one of the people involved at your prior employment and that's what prompted her concern?
Sorry you're going through this. Hopefully one of the other potential jobs will come through quickly and you can move on to something better.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 16, 2014 20:29:53 GMT -5
I hope GRG's reply(#2) is right. It does seem like she's taken a serious dislike to you and is willing to do whatever she can to get rid of you. Unlike Milee, I wonder if your previous employer issues make her think you are a choice target.
In the future, try to watch out for serious personality mismatches with management. Had you been willing to tow the line with the write on board, she may not have gone after you like this.
Good luck.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 16, 2014 20:33:16 GMT -5
I'm sorry. Having to sign out that I'm peeing is beyond the pale.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 16, 2014 20:47:27 GMT -5
I'm sorry. Having to sign out that I'm peeing is beyond the pale. I'm not saying I agree with the boss, but sometimes you put up with something until you can leave or cajole them into something more realistic.
I quit a job because I had a boss that was planning to implement something so even pee breaks weren't sacred. In theory, I was supposed to bolt out of the restroom mid-pee if tagged electronically. Yep I was supposed to start wearing a beeper or a phone when I went to the bathroom.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 16, 2014 21:07:18 GMT -5
Phoenix, Is this the first female boss that you have had? No, my boss previous to this was a female, an older lady. She was great, best boss I ever had.
There was a re organization of management, and she retired (in part I think) in protest. Then they moved my current supervisor into the position.
It is the first boss I've had that younger, she's only a few years older than me.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 16, 2014 21:14:06 GMT -5
I talked to HR again.
Basically, what she's assigned me is a detail. A detail is not disciplinary in nature, it's just a reassignment of duties for periods of up to 120 days. As such, it's not really something you can appeal in an official manner.
However, I can grieve just about anything I want without going through a formal appeals process, as I understand it. However, it was recommended if I do anything to do something called "alternative conflict resolution." It's some form of mediation between me and my supervisor with a third party. I don't know much about it yet. I can also fill out a form and file a grievance officially, if that doesn't work. Again, for just about anything, as I understand it. The guy wasn't really clear on specifics.
Anyway, I think my choice now is do I want to do the mediation, or do nothing and wait for the official action against me. Presumably there will be some type of disciplinary action, performance improvement plan, or both. If they do any of that, then I have immediate formal appeal rights, and they have to provide whatever documentation they are using against me.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 16, 2014 21:20:04 GMT -5
Is this the same boss that wanted you to log out when you went to the bathroom (or anywhere else) so she knew where you were, or am I confused with another poster? No, it's the same one.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 16, 2014 21:25:32 GMT -5
Is it possible she spoke to one of the people involved at your prior employment and that's what prompted her concern?
Sorry you're going through this. Hopefully one of the other potential jobs will come through quickly and you can move on to something better. I don't think she has, but *shrugs* you never know. She doesn't tell me anything, and I don't tell her what I'm doing either.
The first thing to die in war is trust, as they say.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 22:15:06 GMT -5
"Anyway, I think my choice now is do I want to do the mediation, or do nothing and wait for the official action against me. Presumably there will be some type of disciplinary action, performance improvement plan, or both. If they do any of that, then I have immediate formal appeal rights, and they have to provide whatever documentation they are using against me."
Well maybe your first thought shouldn't be about appealing but about learning from this and improving your performance. Like Shasta said, this is not your first problem with an employer. Maybe there is something you are doing. And with the previous issue, maybe you just won because of technicalities in the way your supervisor handled things. Kinda like throwing out evidence in a trial for mishandling. It doesn't mean it didn't happen. So I would start looking at what you are doing that is resulting in the same thing happening so it doesn't happen again with your future employer.
From what you described, it sounds like she does have a good reason for her actions (unless I misunderstood). You ignored some warning assuming it was a faulty warning per your experience, is that correct? You are dealing with radiation safety, right? It sounds to me like there would be very strict protocol and nothing should be ignored just based on somebody's past experience. Again, I may have totally misunderstood the problem.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jul 16, 2014 22:34:20 GMT -5
"Anyway, I think my choice now is do I want to do the mediation, or do nothing and wait for the official action against me. Presumably there will be some type of disciplinary action, performance improvement plan, or both. If they do any of that, then I have immediate formal appeal rights, and they have to provide whatever documentation they are using against me." Well maybe your first thought shouldn't be about appealing but about learning from this and improving your performance. Like Shasta said, this is not your first problem with an employer. Maybe there is something you are doing. And with the previous issue, maybe you just won because of technicalities in the way your supervisor handled things. Kinda like throwing out evidence in a trial for mishandling. It doesn't mean it didn't happen. So I would start looking at what you are doing that is resulting in the same thing happening so it doesn't happen again with your future employer. From what you described, it sounds like she does have a good reason for her actions (unless I misunderstood). You ignored some warning assuming it was a faulty warning per your experience, is that correct? You are dealing with radiation safety, right? It sounds to me like there would be very strict protocol and nothing should be ignored just based on somebody's past experience. Again, I may have totally misunderstood the problem. IIRC, Phoenix's previous issue was not a personality issue but a job fit and training problem. That is, he was not qualified to do the job that he was hired to do and there were no training opportunities for him.
I think this is a different situation based on personalities. Phoenix has talked about being on the autism spectrum and I'll bet this young woman doesn't have enough management experience to pick up the type. A lot of engineer types have issues reading people and giving appropriate non-verbal feedback. It can come across as snobby or unresponsive when in fact it's a painfully shy response.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Jul 16, 2014 22:35:37 GMT -5
I talked to HR again.
Basically, what she's assigned me is a detail. A detail is not disciplinary in nature, it's just a reassignment of duties for periods of up to 120 days. As such, it's not really something you can appeal in an official manner.
However, I can grieve just about anything I want without going through a formal appeals process, as I understand it. However, it was recommended if I do anything to do something called "alternative conflict resolution." It's some form of mediation between me and my supervisor with a third party. I don't know much about it yet. I can also fill out a form and file a grievance officially, if that doesn't work. Again, for just about anything, as I understand it. The guy wasn't really clear on specifics.
Anyway, I think my choice now is do I want to do the mediation, or do nothing and wait for the official action against me. Presumably there will be some type of disciplinary action, performance improvement plan, or both. If they do any of that, then I have immediate formal appeal rights, and they have to provide whatever documentation they are using against me. I don't know how effective "mediation" is with the feds. She is a female and a minority, correct? Even if you are "right" during mediation, it's doubtful that HR/management will do anything because of her demographics. Perhaps I am just jaded but I saw some mediations when I worked for the Dept of Defense. One involved a woman who was a total lazy, mean, hateful cow. She hated another woman who worked there because she had been assigned as her assistant and the woman expected her to actually SHOW up to work and do the job (she was in finance so she especially needed to be there at the end of the fiscal year... It would be like a tax accountant threatening to sue because their employer said they couldn't take vacation the two weeks before April 15). They went to mediation and the cow got in the other woman's face (she was about a foot taller and at least 400 pounds heavier), screaming at her. Her behavior showed she was obviously unhinged. Everyone else in the unit hated her because she was such a b%^&* and would seek out ways to humiliate you if you had to talk to her about work. HR did nothing because they were too scared of her "suing" (she was a minority, female, and disabled. She had the trifecta). She actually was trying to get enough "evidence" to "quit" and sue the govt for discrimination so she could get paid to sit at home on her a$$ for the rest of her life (she was in her 40s). It was insane what management told us to "deal with" just because she fit some "under-represented" quota....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 22:46:56 GMT -5
"IIRC, Phoenix's previous issue was not a personality issue but a job fit and training problem. That is, he was not qualified to do the job that he was hired to do and there were no training opportunities for him.
I think this is a different situation based on personalities. Phoenix has talked about being on the autism spectrum and I'll bet this young woman doesn't have enough management experience to pick up the type. A lot of engineer types have issues reading people and giving appropriate non-verbal feedback. It can come across as snobby or unresponsive when in fact it's a painfully shy response."
I don't think it is only about personalities in this case. She has asked him to do things, he admittedly hasn't done them because he thought they were silly and just ignored rather than communicate with her. And the last incident, if it went down the way I understood it, she seems to have a point. In any case, nothing is ever perfect in any job. We all run into similar issues but I guess the difference is in his case, since he works for the government, he can actually appeal even if he doesn't do his job or he is not a good fit for it? I don't have any experience working for the government but in the private industry, in both cases he would be gone and he wouldn't get a chance to appeal about anything. So what I was saying was just because he got cleared due to the way government jobs work doesn't mean there isn't a problem. He is better off looking at himself and how he is contributing so it doesn't happen for the 3rd time.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 17, 2014 1:06:26 GMT -5
"Anyway, I think my choice now is do I want to do the mediation, or do nothing and wait for the official action against me. Presumably there will be some type of disciplinary action, performance improvement plan, or both. If they do any of that, then I have immediate formal appeal rights, and they have to provide whatever documentation they are using against me." Well maybe your first thought shouldn't be about appealing but about learning from this and improving your performance. Like Shasta said, this is not your first problem with an employer. Maybe there is something you are doing. And with the previous issue, maybe you just won because of technicalities in the way your supervisor handled things. Kinda like throwing out evidence in a trial for mishandling. It doesn't mean it didn't happen. So I would start looking at what you are doing that is resulting in the same thing happening so it doesn't happen again with your future employer. From what you described, it sounds like she does have a good reason for her actions (unless I misunderstood). You ignored some warning assuming it was a faulty warning per your experience, is that correct? You are dealing with radiation safety, right? It sounds to me like there would be very strict protocol and nothing should be ignored just based on somebody's past experience. Again, I may have totally misunderstood the problem. IIRC, Phoenix's previous issue was not a personality issue but a job fit and training problem. That is, he was not qualified to do the job that he was hired to do and there were no training opportunities for him.
I think this is a different situation based on personalities. Phoenix has talked about being on the autism spectrum and I'll bet this young woman doesn't have enough management experience to pick up the type. A lot of engineer types have issues reading people and giving appropriate non-verbal feedback. It can come across as snobby or unresponsive when in fact it's a painfully shy response.
That's a pretty good assessment as far as I see it. I think in both cases (but this case in particular) it's a personality conflict, possibly due to my "issues."
It's something that I've become increasingly aware of in the past couple of years. A lot of people out there don't "get" me, and mannerisms and ways I do things sometimes offend people where no offense is given. There are certain steps I can probably take to improve my relations to others, but at the same time, I can't fundamentally change who I am.
People do notice, and some are more accepting than others.
Anyway, I think there's truth to what you say. I need to evaluate my part on this and see what changes I need to make in the future. I'm willing to assess my mistakes and own up to them. At the same time, I don't think everything that's happened, now and in the past, is all my fault either. Learning from my mistakes is only half the battle, I have to defend myself to make sure there is a next time.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 17, 2014 1:17:24 GMT -5
I talked to HR again.
Basically, what she's assigned me is a detail. A detail is not disciplinary in nature, it's just a reassignment of duties for periods of up to 120 days. As such, it's not really something you can appeal in an official manner.
However, I can grieve just about anything I want without going through a formal appeals process, as I understand it. However, it was recommended if I do anything to do something called "alternative conflict resolution." It's some form of mediation between me and my supervisor with a third party. I don't know much about it yet. I can also fill out a form and file a grievance officially, if that doesn't work. Again, for just about anything, as I understand it. The guy wasn't really clear on specifics.
Anyway, I think my choice now is do I want to do the mediation, or do nothing and wait for the official action against me. Presumably there will be some type of disciplinary action, performance improvement plan, or both. If they do any of that, then I have immediate formal appeal rights, and they have to provide whatever documentation they are using against me. I don't know how effective "mediation" is with the feds. She is a female and a minority, correct? Even if you are "right" during mediation, it's doubtful that HR/management will do anything because of her demographics. Perhaps I am just jaded but I saw some mediations when I worked for the Dept of Defense. One involved a woman who was a total lazy, mean, hateful cow. She hated another woman who worked there because she had been assigned as her assistant and the woman expected her to actually SHOW up to work and do the job (she was in finance so she especially needed to be there at the end of the fiscal year... It would be like a tax accountant threatening to sue because their employer said they couldn't take vacation the two weeks before April 15). They went to mediation and the cow got in the other woman's face (she was about a foot taller and at least 400 pounds heavier), screaming at her. Her behavior showed she was obviously unhinged. Everyone else in the unit hated her because she was such a b%^&* and would seek out ways to humiliate you if you had to talk to her about work. HR did nothing because they were too scared of her "suing" (she was a minority, female, and disabled. She had the trifecta). She actually was trying to get enough "evidence" to "quit" and sue the govt for discrimination so she could get paid to sit at home on her a$$ for the rest of her life (she was in her 40s). It was insane what management told us to "deal with" just because she fit some "under-represented" quota.... Interesting story.
I don't think I'm quite "unhinged" and so far I've managed to keep my cool. Furthermore I'm not out to sue anybody if I can help it. In fact, if I had my way, things would go back to normal and I'd keep working. I actually do care about what I do and about doing a good job.
I suppose the question is, "what's the benefit, and what's the drawbacks." Honestly, I think the odds if it being successful are quite low, but on the other hand, it may demonstrate I'm serious about fixing this issue and cultivating a good working relationship with my boss.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 17, 2014 1:26:46 GMT -5
"IIRC, Phoenix's previous issue was not a personality issue but a job fit and training problem. That is, he was not qualified to do the job that he was hired to do and there were no training opportunities for him.
I think this is a different situation based on personalities. Phoenix has talked about being on the autism spectrum and I'll bet this young woman doesn't have enough management experience to pick up the type. A lot of engineer types have issues reading people and giving appropriate non-verbal feedback. It can come across as snobby or unresponsive when in fact it's a painfully shy response."
I don't think it is only about personalities in this case. She has asked him to do things, he admittedly hasn't done them because he thought they were silly and just ignored rather than communicate with her. And the last incident, if it went down the way I understood it, she seems to have a point. In any case, nothing is ever perfect in any job. We all run into similar issues but I guess the difference is in his case, since he works for the government, he can actually appeal even if he doesn't do his job or he is not a good fit for it? I don't have any experience working for the government but in the private industry, in both cases he would be gone and he wouldn't get a chance to appeal about anything. So what I was saying was just because he got cleared due to the way government jobs work doesn't mean there isn't a problem. He is better off looking at himself and how he is contributing so it doesn't happen for the 3rd time.
That's not really true. I did the silly things after she made it clear she wanted me to do them. The problem was in large part communication. She never really effectively communicated how often to use the whiteboards (for example) and never issued anything in writing. Once I understood how big a deal it was to her, I started doing it religiously.
The problem is she doesn't communicate expectations well, and then it's all my fault if I don't understand it. She also always jumps to the worst possible conclusions about any misstep I do, seeming to assume malicious intent.
As someone said earlier, I have taken her issues to heart and made changes, the unfortunate thing is things are getting worse instead of better.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Jul 17, 2014 1:41:42 GMT -5
Phoenix, I have no doubt you are not unhinged (double negative-you are hinged? ) Your boss maybe not. That's what I would be worried about. In the case I saw, the unhinged one wasn't the one that asked for the mediation. The normal one did. (The unhinged one was perfectly happy making everyone miserable and doing nothing). My point was that even after all of the drama (getting physically into a co-worker's face? Having to be physically separated from them because you are out of control), nothing was done. The normal one was worse off than before because the mediation results emboldened the nutjob (she knew mgt wouldn't do anything at that point), The normal one then became an even bigger target from the nutjob....
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 17, 2014 6:21:11 GMT -5
That's how it always works. The bitchy wheel gets everything because everyone is afraid of her. I think I'd use my "disability" as your crutch, so to speak. If she can use female and minority then you use what's available to you as well. I'd go for that 3rd party mediation and I'd still have my lawyer there, preferably female and minority as well. Then YOU have the trifecta!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 6:42:31 GMT -5
"That's not really true. I did the silly things after she made it clear she wanted me to do them. The problem was in large part communication. She never really effectively communicated how often to use the whiteboards (for example) and never issued anything in writing. Once I understood how big a deal it was to her, I started doing it religiously."
You did them AFTER she started picking on you and warned you. So what was this last incident? Did i understand correctly? Because if i did, i don't think it is one of her "silly" requests. It sounds like a safety issue. Your previous boss might not have cared but the new one, being a new manager, might want everything by the rules, not based on experience and interpretation. You don't know for sure what she is blaming you with but you know what you do, i would compare that against all rules/protocol and only then i would consider taking the issue further. Otherwise, just watch everything you do for the 60 days and hope it goes away. After that just make sure every little thing is by the book because she has already made up her mind that you are not competant (sp?) and looking for a reason.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 7:57:59 GMT -5
I don't get subtlety either. I like explicit directions. Sometimes though this requires me to ask for explicit directions and say up front to people what I need in terms of communication.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jul 17, 2014 9:12:03 GMT -5
Phoenix84,
Your self awareness is half the battle and frankly puts you ahead of this young (and probably insecure)manager.
Unfortunately you are going to run into this problem throughout your life. The good news is that you will recognize it sooner now that you are aware. You can probably get some help via some counseling and role playing on how to better "read" people and to respond with appropriate non-verbal responses. It's going to take work on your part but it will serve you in the long run.
Keep in mind that EVERYONE has issues; it's a matter of how quickly you can assess the situation and adapt your behavior. And in some cases it's just not going to work out and it's time to move on. As others have said you're a good person. Good luck.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 17, 2014 9:20:31 GMT -5
Phoenix sounds like you maybe come across as aloof and uncooperative at times, and your new boss is fairly paranoid so she interpreted this as being hostile to her, and she now examines everything you say and do looking for proof that you are trying to sabatoge her.
It's a personality clash, and I don't think it's fixable. I think you're right to pursue new job opportunities as soon as possible.
I did the same job at the same company for four different facilities managers over about 10 years. One thought I was fabulous, two thought I was great, one hated me (but he also hated all the other female managers, and all the black employees).
Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you do your job, if you and your boss have clashing personalities.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 17, 2014 9:30:58 GMT -5
Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you do your job, if you and your boss have clashing personalities. It sounds like you function better as an independent and she's a micromanager. You also have been at your job long enough that you "know what you're doing". She is brand new and the only thing she has to go by is the book. So ideally you should have been 100% following the book for every single thing you did. Then there would have been no room for her to discipline you because you could point to the rule book and show you followed it to the letter. I realized that with my last boss I should have documented everything I did in the animal room. She thought I was hiding down there to avoid work. I assumed she understood how the university's animal handling system worked. She was coming from an institute where you didn't have to lift a finger. I didn't realize my mistake till she told me it should only take me 8 hours or less per week to manage the colony and by then it was too late. There's not a lot you can do once it gets to the point it has. You might be able to appeal and win on a technicality but you really need to weigh whether or not it's worth being right. You're not going to make any friends if she loses, she has the power to make your life miserable. Looking for another job might be your best bet and take what you've learned from dealing with this boss with you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 9:43:33 GMT -5
There also seems to me to be an attitude in the OP of they can't fire me, I am not replaceable. What anyone needs to keep in mind is that the day after you are gone, the company will keep right on going. They can hire or train a replacement for anyone. While Phoenix may not think that comes across to the boss, it may be that it does. I tend to agree that it is time to move on and use this as a learning experience. Also, government work just might not be for Phoenix. Invariably, your reputation follows you from agency to agency and right now, it isn't looking good since there seems to be a problem every at each stop. The perception doesn't mean that it is true but perception is everything at work.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 9:48:04 GMT -5
There also seems to me to be an attitude in the OP of they can't fire me, I am not replaceable. What anyone needs to keep in mind is that the day after you are gone, the company will keep right on going. They can hire or train a replacement for anyone. While Phoenix may not think that comes across to the boss, it may be that it does. I tend to agree that it is time to move on and use this as a learning experience. Also, government work just might not be for Phoenix. Invariably, your reputation follows you from agency to agency and right now, it isn't looking good since there seems to be a problem every at each stop. The perception doesn't mean that it is true but perception is everything at work. he's a civil servant. it's nearly impossible to get fired. he could be RIF'd but that would mean they couldn't hire another person to do his job, and his job is not something that can't not be done
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 17, 2014 10:11:24 GMT -5
There also seems to me to be an attitude in the OP of they can't fire me, I am not replaceable. What anyone needs to keep in mind is that the day after you are gone, the company will keep right on going. They can hire or train a replacement for anyone. While Phoenix may not think that comes across to the boss, it may be that it does. I tend to agree that it is time to move on and use this as a learning experience. Also, government work just might not be for Phoenix. Invariably, your reputation follows you from agency to agency and right now, it isn't looking good since there seems to be a problem every at each stop. The perception doesn't mean that it is true but perception is everything at work. he's a civil servant. it's nearly impossible to get fired. he could be RIF'd but that would mean they couldn't hire another person to do his job, and his job is not something that can't not be done And that's exactly why it appears that there is a serious issue. Twice now, his bosses have gone through the lengthy and exhaustive steps needed to fire him even knowing it's darn near impossible to fire a civil servant. The first boss failed only because of a technicality (due to prior employment with the federal government that the boss didn't know or take into consideration, Phoenix was subject to a different probationary period than is standard so even though Phoenix admitted he could not perform the job and the boss documented that, the firing was ruled improper because of the timing of the action), but it looks like the second boss is seeking to make her firing stick. Phoenix is wise to recognize there's an issue and seek to address it, because there is a major disconnect that keeps happening and it's serious enough to provoke extreme reactions from his managers.
It may very well be misunderstandings or miscommunication and can be addressed through self-awareness or CBT, so Phoenix is on the right track to recognize there's an issue and think about how to address the issue before the next job.
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Deleted
Joined: Oct 10, 2024 10:23:49 GMT -5
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 10:17:49 GMT -5
So far there is no indication she has gone to steps... From HR responses, it seems what she has done is threaten a lot...
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