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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2014 22:58:06 GMT -5
He bought a boat. Exactly why you don't cut him slack on the % split up front. Even though he is on meds and behavior is under control on the surface, there is history there that you don't know about. Treating your son like a possession, being obsessed with him or you, poor impulse control it's all part of a mental health issue. It sounds like something that is too familiar to me. You need to demand that his diagnosis and evaluation file is shared with the court. If it is what I am familiar with, he would never get a document from a psych saying he was able to parent if on meds. More likely it would say that he may not ever be able to independently parent. You can't trust him to tell the truth, so unless he is willing to share his evaluation with you, don't believe anything he says. They can be staring at a document that says they can't parent on their own and need support & respite assistance, and straight faced tell you it says they can have unrestricted time. Hoping you had a good weekend and can take a little time to get into the drivers seat on the proposed plan! I don't really know what his official diagnosis is. I've heard bipolar and severe depressive disorder and they were also throwing around some other stuff, like intermittent explosive disorder (I'm guessing the car trashing got him that one). I did have a good weekend. Lots of unloading hay at the neighbors so my back hurts, but got my chickens home and a little cleaning done in the barn. I went to the county fair today. I was really tempted to call ex to meet us there for visitation but did not, so he hasn't seen him since last Wednesday.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jul 13, 2014 23:26:58 GMT -5
Don't mean to alarm you, minnesotapaintedlady, but that alone would scare the shit out of me and also convince me to not allowing an EX with those traits/diagnosis to be alone with any child we'd had together.
Do you realize how many people who have a severe depressive disorder or "explosive" disorder (temper/blowing up) decide to off themselves and while they're at it, take anyone their Ex cherishes out with them - as a means to hurt them further - or get even? (Yes, this often includes their children).
Remember Aaron Schauffhausen? - Gruesome story - here's the link:Click here to Read
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Works4me
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Post by Works4me on Jul 13, 2014 23:28:25 GMT -5
I agree 110% with Lily of the Lake - the boat and everything else, both good and bad, are the reason you have to follow up and cut him no grace. It is true that people with the diagnoses you listed (Bipolar, severe depressive and intermittent explosive disorders) are sometimes unable to separate reality from fantasy when it comes to what they want. The other danger is that the disorders can play off of each other and create an even worse situation.
For all reasons you need to do what is right - hopefully so that he can recover to effectively father your son and at worst to protect your son from him.
Never forget that you can do this an do it well - look at what you have done already - obtained the divorce efficiently, seen that your son is well taken care of until now and supervising the visits yourself. Now keep moving forward and close the holes in the net.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 0:08:42 GMT -5
Don't mean to alarm you, minnesotapaintedlady, but that alone would scare the shit out of me and also convince me to not allowing an EX with those traits/diagnosis to be alone with any child we'd had together.
Do you realize how many people who have a severe depressive disorder or "explosive" disorder (temper/blowing up) decide to off themselves and while they're at it, take anyone their Ex cherishes out with them - as a means to hurt them further - or get even? (Yes, this often includes their children). MPL's ex is going to be a trial to deal with, because mental health disorders make that person & everyone around them's life hellish. But in most cases that is the extent of it. He's going to get thrown in jail more often than the average person, and will probably work to make MPL's life difficult when he doesn't get what he wants, but to jump to conclusion that he'll harm the kid because he's got a disorder is solely alarmist. If you don't want to be an alarmist, post a balanced analysis of how many people with bi-polar murder others. You will find many statistics on bi-polar creating a significantly higher risk of self harm, but I never found anything to say people turn murderous. Use of drugs or alcohol does create more risk of explosive outbursts & self harm in people with bipolar. Hopefully when she looks at the parenting worksheet she'll put some restrictions on alcohol use during visits with the child.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 0:37:25 GMT -5
I too have trouble with the once diagnosed with a mental health condition you should be labeled dangerous forever. I've heard that 1:12 people are affected with major depressive disorder at any given time. That's a lot of people.
I had pretty severe postpartum depression for over a year and never killed my son, but yes, it happens.
I'm not saying his condition isn't serious, last year when he was homeless and using he was a loose cannon for sure. The only medication he was on was for ADHD and they think that actually triggered the bipolar in the first place. But, he has been under some pretty intense therapy since last October. Besides being medicated now, he sees four different people and they do home visits as well. A psychiatrist, two counselors and a person from family based services that is working with him on parenting skills. His revelation a couple weeks ago was when she told him he wasn't supposed to be his son's friend. I've told him that many times, but apparently hearing it from the "professional" struck home better. Not sure if he'll act on this new knowledge, but we'll see.
I need to set up the hoops he needs to jump through. He asks me to all the time, but I just don't know what to tell him.
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Works4me
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Post by Works4me on Jul 14, 2014 1:50:51 GMT -5
Then make your plan - fortunately and unfortunately it is up to you - it's your job to design - you can do it - decide on what you need and also want to feel as safe as is possible - it will take time - with that many people assigned to him ... most likely considered very likely to relapse - he is being given every advantage to make it. But it will not happen now nor fast and he will be frustrated - that is just the way it is - he needs to be medicated and have been clean and sober for some time - 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, one year, two years - maybe even 5 years. I would make my ideal as wanted plan, bare minimum for compliance and end up with a plan somewhere in the middle as to what I wanted - write it out and sent to attorney first.
For good and for bad, easy and difficult, right now it is up to you to determine what is and is not reasonable.
You can do this and do it well!
ETA - I was a social sciences/psych minor at an ag school and haying can be a hell of a lot of fun - neighbors, friends, beer, sweat, gloves, bandanas and hooks - all outside in the middle of the night - OH YEAH!!! Been something like ten...twen...twenty-f...thirty... around 30 years since I have been to one - amazing because I am only 39 still - lol - probably do me I or at least make it impossible to get up the next morning but what a way to go!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 20:33:38 GMT -5
I think he figured out he still has a free attorney. Swell. I don't think I'll luck out by not getting served this time.
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taz157
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Post by taz157 on Jul 14, 2014 20:36:08 GMT -5
Why do you say that? What's changed? Heard through the grapevine?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 20:41:45 GMT -5
They've been calling back and forth. I can still see his call log on his cell phone.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 15, 2014 23:26:24 GMT -5
Thank you so much for your post sarahjese. I appreciate all the advice from everyone here, but the BTDT people really seem to know what I'm feeling. I post all the bad stuff, but he does have a lot of very good qualities and I do miss a lot of what we had, and want him to have a good life and for our son to have a relationship with him, so this is really hard sometimes. Today, not so much. He bought a boat. He bought a boat?!? LOL! Well, I guess that tells us he hasn't made much progress with his impulsiveness, doesn't it?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 7:04:11 GMT -5
and this is exactly why people don't discuss their mental health issues....if he's properly medicated and following his treatment plan, I'm pretty sure he's perfectly stable. this attitude of 'oh my god he has mental health issues he can't ever have unsupervised visitation' is why mental health is such a taboo subject and not discussed openly.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 7:35:55 GMT -5
I can't see him lasting long at a job with issues like that. And who would hire someone like that, they surely don't know his history.
I would be scared to death to be around someone like that. I'll bet if you met him without knowing who he was or what happened last year, you'd like him. And as far as hiring him, he gets better jobs than me. They know about the criminal stuff because they did a background check, but it's against the law to ask about mental health issues prior to offering a job and his job qualifications are quite good. Lots of experience in maintenance and robotics.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 7:48:33 GMT -5
and this is exactly why people don't discuss their mental health issues....if he's properly medicated and following his treatment plan, I'm pretty sure he's perfectly stable. this attitude of 'oh my god he has mental health issues he can't ever have unsupervised visitation' is why mental health is such a taboo subject and not discussed openly. It's slowly getting better, but yes, it's still something people are afraid to talk about. When I was in high school I had severe panic attacks. They were so bad that I would just pass out, sometimes even seize. At first it was triggered by external things, (see someone badly injured) but it got to the point that just going to school had me so anxious that it was all I could do to sit through a class. I certainly wasn't learning anything. The counselors and the psychologist my mother took me to told her that the only option was hospitalization and if I did that I would be carry the mental health stigma forever. I dropped out of school shortly after. I just couldn't do it anymore. These days a script of xanax would have completely taken care of the issue. I wonder how different things would have been for me today had that happened?
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jul 16, 2014 7:52:23 GMT -5
and this is exactly why people don't discuss their mental health issues....if he's properly medicated and following his treatment plan, I'm pretty sure he's perfectly stable. this attitude of 'oh my god he has mental health issues he can't ever have unsupervised visitation' is why mental health is such a taboo subject and not discussed openly. I wonder how different things would have been for me today had that happened? You would probably be married to Newt Gingrich and sport a perfectly quaffed hair helmet.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 7:58:44 GMT -5
I wonder how different things would have been for me today had that happened? You would probably be married to Newt Gingrich and sport a perfectly quaffed hair helmet. Yeah. No. Especially on the hair. Although Callista is one of those Facebook friends where you're like WTH? I can't imagine that life.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 9:21:54 GMT -5
Thank you so much for your post sarahjese. I appreciate all the advice from everyone here, but the BTDT people really seem to know what I'm feeling. I post all the bad stuff, but he does have a lot of very good qualities and I do miss a lot of what we had, and want him to have a good life and for our son to have a relationship with him, so this is really hard sometimes. Today, not so much. He bought a boat. He bought a boat?!? LOL! Well, I guess that tells us he hasn't made much progress with his impulsiveness, doesn't it? Yeah, and guess who he bought it from? The loser friends! I knew when he said it was $800 it was the same one he was trying to convince me we should get last summer (when he was living in a tent and I was trying to pay off all his medical bills for the surgeries...yeah, let's buy a boat!). He claims he could sell it tomorrow for twice that, but when I asked him why it took his friend a year to sell it for half what it was worth, he said he thinks his buddy was just saving it for him. Yeah, ok.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 16, 2014 9:25:28 GMT -5
and this is exactly why people don't discuss their mental health issues....if he's properly medicated and following his treatment plan, I'm pretty sure he's perfectly stable. this attitude of 'oh my god he has mental health issues he can't ever have unsupervised visitation' is why mental health is such a taboo subject and not discussed openly. True, but at the same time it can take years to get someone that like truly stable. An appearance of stable may just mean he isn't having an episode at the moment, not that the meds are exactly what they should be. While I agree he shouldn't be punished forever, I think it takes more than a few months of things going well to go for a more 50/50 custody or even unsupervised visits. The scary thing about someone like that is that you never think they would do X, until the day they do. When they are unstable they are unpredictable. I'm sure MPL has a half-dozen things that she never dreamed he would have done, until he did them. Yeah, he probably never would hurt his kid or do anything like that, but I personally would make him earn back that trust because the cost of being wrong on that bet is huge & not a risk I would take.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 9:30:37 GMT -5
and this is exactly why people don't discuss their mental health issues....if he's properly medicated and following his treatment plan, I'm pretty sure he's perfectly stable. this attitude of 'oh my god he has mental health issues he can't ever have unsupervised visitation' is why mental health is such a taboo subject and not discussed openly. True, but at the same time it can take years to get someone that like truly stable. An appearance of stable may just mean he isn't having an episode at the moment, not that the meds are exactly what they should be. While I agree he shouldn't be punished forever, I think it takes more than a few months of things going well to go for a more 50/50 custody or even unsupervised visits. The scary thing about someone like that is that you never think they would do X, until the day they do. When they are unstable they are unpredictable. I'm sure MPL has a half-dozen things that she never dreamed he would have done, until he did them. Yeah, he probably never would hurt his kid or do anything like that, but I personally would make him earn back that trust because the cost of being wrong on that bet is huge & not a risk I would take. my comment was primarily in response to PatStab's 'I would be scared to death to be around someone like that'
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 9:43:50 GMT -5
My biggest concern right now is he's going along with everything because he has to and to look good, but part of being bipolar is thinking you know better and have it figured out. Mainly I'm worried he's going to start drinking heavily or smoking weed again. This is where things have gone bad for him in the past. As long as I've known him he has always been concerned about his depression and anxiety and followed the doctors med orders there, but he would just find a nurse practitioner to prescribe things and never talk to anyone. Now he's getting a lot of other therapy besides meds. A lot of his chemical dependency issues have been self-medicating ones, so hopefully they get a right combination so he doesn't have that urge. One of the meds he's on for the anger outbursts is the same stuff they give people trying to curb marijuana cravings.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 16, 2014 9:50:30 GMT -5
My biggest concern right now is he's going along with everything because he has to and to look good, but part of being bipolar is thinking you know better and have it figured out. Mainly I'm worried he's going to start drinking heavily or smoking weed again
Unfortunately you can't control it or know for sure. Which is why people are saying don't let him guilt trip you into dropping supervised visitation, at least at this point in time.
You need to be able to determine for yourself if he's actually following thru for the long haul, you can't just take his word for it.
You also need to determine what he needs to do to prove that to you. My DH had to jump thru numerous hoops to prove to me that he was serious about fixing what happened and that he would do his best to ensure it wouldn't happen again. Boundaries had to be re-drawn so he knows what is going to go down if it does happen again.
There is no way I would have just taken his word for it he needed to prove to me that my trust was deserved. I also have to take steps to make sure that if it ever does happen again I have a plan in place because I cannot control the future.
And I won't lie, I still have my "what if" moments on occasion. Post birth I'll be given a script for pain meds and I've been wrestling with bringing pain meds into the house. We've discussed my concerns and DH understands why I have them.
The doubts don't ever fully go away. Doesn't mean I don't love my DH or trust him but you can't go thru something like that and not have it leave a permanent residue in the back of your brain.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 16, 2014 10:23:38 GMT -5
Wow... I don't have anything constructive to add but I'm so sorry you're dealing with all of this MPL.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 16, 2014 10:42:20 GMT -5
and this is exactly why people don't discuss their mental health issues....if he's properly medicated and following his treatment plan, I'm pretty sure he's perfectly stable. this attitude of 'oh my god he has mental health issues he can't ever have unsupervised visitation' is why mental health is such a taboo subject and not discussed openly. True, but at the same time it can take years to get someone that like truly stable. An appearance of stable may just mean he isn't having an episode at the moment, not that the meds are exactly what they should be. While I agree he shouldn't be punished forever, I think it takes more than a few months of things going well to go for a more 50/50 custody or even unsupervised visits. The scary thing about someone like that is that you never think they would do X, until the day they do. When they are unstable they are unpredictable. I'm sure MPL has a half-dozen things that she never dreamed he would have done, until he did them. Yeah, he probably never would hurt his kid or do anything like that, but I personally would make him earn back that trust because the cost of being wrong on that bet is huge & not a risk I would take. Yes and yes. Singlemominmd's right that people with mental health issues can live stable lives if they're following the treatment plan, faithfully taking their medication and actively and honestly monitoring their condition. But Angel's point is also very valid. Especially with severe mental illness and especially with the types that involve impulsivity and lack of self control, it's not usually so simple to just get them through an episode an onto meds. It's a constant cycle. They'll hit bottom or have a bad experience and get on the meds/follow the plan... a few months later they think they no longer need the meds, or the meds make them feel tired, or they just start forgetting because they're focused on other things and wham! they're back into instability.
This guy is at the very beginning of what's likely to be a long journey. There will be ups, downs, relapses and success. The problem is you can't predict when each of those things is going to happen and what collateral damage will occur when it does. You can't keep his child away from him unless and until he's demonstrated he's likely to harm the little guy, but assuming the dad is stable until you've seen at least 3-4 years of constant, stable behavior is taking a big risk. That doesn't mean you live cowering in terror or stigmatize the dad, but it does mean that you keep safeguards in place and remember the situation when making plans and decisions.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 16, 2014 10:49:15 GMT -5
If you are looking at a benchmark to tell the judge about dropping supervised visitation, tell him a year after he stops therapy. I really doubt he will be seeing all 4 therapists indefinitely.
A year will give you a good idea as to whether he has taken their words to heart, or whether he is just paying lip service. A year will also tell you whether or not he can control the issues on his own, with meds.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jul 16, 2014 10:52:00 GMT -5
My biggest concern right now is he's going along with everything because he has to and to look good, but part of being bipolar is thinking you know better and have it figured out. Mainly I'm worried he's going to start drinking heavily or smoking weed again
Unfortunately you can't control it or know for sure. Which is why people are saying don't let him guilt trip you into dropping supervised visitation, at least at this point in time.
You need to be able to determine for yourself if he's actually following thru for the long haul, you can't just take his word for it.
You also need to determine what he needs to do to prove that to you. My DH had to jump thru numerous hoops to prove to me that he was serious about fixing what happened and that he would do his best to ensure it wouldn't happen again. Boundaries had to be re-drawn so he knows what is going to go down if it does happen again.
There is no way I would have just taken his word for it he needed to prove to me that my trust was deserved. I also have to take steps to make sure that if it ever does happen again I have a plan in place because I cannot control the future.
And I won't lie, I still have my "what if" moments on occasion. Post birth I'll be given a script for pain meds and I've been wrestling with bringing pain meds into the house. We've discussed my concerns and DH understands why I have them.
The doubts don't ever fully go away. Doesn't mean I don't love my DH or trust him but you can't go thru something like that and not have it leave a permanent residue in the back of your brain. I don't mean this in any snarky way at all, but why?? Why are you sure you're getting pain meds after birth unless it's a C section? I've never heard of anyone getting a script for them just as routine. I'm confused.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Jul 16, 2014 10:56:48 GMT -5
My biggest concern right now is he's going along with everything because he has to and to look good, but part of being bipolar is thinking you know better and have it figured out. Mainly I'm worried he's going to start drinking heavily or smoking weed again
Unfortunately you can't control it or know for sure. Which is why people are saying don't let him guilt trip you into dropping supervised visitation, at least at this point in time.
You need to be able to determine for yourself if he's actually following thru for the long haul, you can't just take his word for it.
You also need to determine what he needs to do to prove that to you. My DH had to jump thru numerous hoops to prove to me that he was serious about fixing what happened and that he would do his best to ensure it wouldn't happen again. Boundaries had to be re-drawn so he knows what is going to go down if it does happen again.
There is no way I would have just taken his word for it he needed to prove to me that my trust was deserved. I also have to take steps to make sure that if it ever does happen again I have a plan in place because I cannot control the future.
And I won't lie, I still have my "what if" moments on occasion. Post birth I'll be given a script for pain meds and I've been wrestling with bringing pain meds into the house. We've discussed my concerns and DH understands why I have them.
The doubts don't ever fully go away. Doesn't mean I don't love my DH or trust him but you can't go thru something like that and not have it leave a permanent residue in the back of your brain. Drama - look into a med lock box. I know these are complicated issues, and only he can stop himself from using. However, you can make it a little easier for everyone (IF you do want to bring them into the house because you need them) by keeping them somewhere he can't access. Also, non-narcotic pain meds may be an option. My Dr wanted to prescribe me just 800 mg ibuprofen, but I'm allergic, so I ended up with Lortab. So you can talk to your dr and see if there are non-narcotic options available.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 16, 2014 10:58:16 GMT -5
I don't mean this in any snarky way at all, but why??
I got them the last time so I figured I'd get them again or maybe they just gave them to me because I an an episotomy?
It was just Tylenol with codeine and prescription strength Motrin. Which in the grand scheme of things is a blip on the radar screen if you're not an addict. But DH took them all and then moved onto the Vicodin I was given after I had my wisdom teeth removed a couple months later. It wouldn't have been that big a leap to start purchasing them from dealers at work.
Really we shouldn't have anything stronger than OTC Tylenol in the house. But if I need them it isn't really fair to make me tough it out either.
Drama - look into a med lock box. I know these are complicated issues, and only he can stop himself from using. However, you can make it a little easier for everyone (IF you do want to bring them into the house because you need them) by keeping them somewhere he can't access. We've talked about it quite a bit and what we decided is I'll accept the script but we won't fill it. *I* can fill it if I feel that I need it, DH won't go to the pharmacy. If it gives me peace of mind I can lock them in the fireproof safe with the key on me at all times. DH can't break into that.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Jul 16, 2014 10:58:25 GMT -5
My biggest concern right now is he's going along with everything because he has to and to look good, but part of being bipolar is thinking you know better and have it figured out. Mainly I'm worried he's going to start drinking heavily or smoking weed again
Unfortunately you can't control it or know for sure. Which is why people are saying don't let him guilt trip you into dropping supervised visitation, at least at this point in time.
You need to be able to determine for yourself if he's actually following thru for the long haul, you can't just take his word for it.
You also need to determine what he needs to do to prove that to you. My DH had to jump thru numerous hoops to prove to me that he was serious about fixing what happened and that he would do his best to ensure it wouldn't happen again. Boundaries had to be re-drawn so he knows what is going to go down if it does happen again.
There is no way I would have just taken his word for it he needed to prove to me that my trust was deserved. I also have to take steps to make sure that if it ever does happen again I have a plan in place because I cannot control the future.
And I won't lie, I still have my "what if" moments on occasion. Post birth I'll be given a script for pain meds and I've been wrestling with bringing pain meds into the house. We've discussed my concerns and DH understands why I have them.
The doubts don't ever fully go away. Doesn't mean I don't love my DH or trust him but you can't go thru something like that and not have it leave a permanent residue in the back of your brain. I don't mean this in any snarky way at all, but why?? Why are you sure you're getting pain meds after birth unless it's a C section? I've never heard of anyone getting a script for them just as routine. I'm confused. Nancy - it depends on a lot of things. As I said above though, my dr routinely prescribed 800 mg ibuprofen for new moms to help with inflamation and pain control.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 10:58:49 GMT -5
They gave DD a prescription for Lortab after she gave birth a couple months ago. I'm not sure why, because there wasn't anything out of the ordinary about the birth. She didn't get it filled. She didn't need it and she doesn't like taking prescription pain meds anyway.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 16, 2014 11:01:20 GMT -5
Did you know that codeine can go for $30 a pill on the streets? I told my dad he owed me $60 for the two I gave him for his back!
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swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,619
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Post by swamp on Jul 16, 2014 11:04:12 GMT -5
I don't mean this in any snarky way at all, but why?? Why are you sure you're getting pain meds after birth unless it's a C section? I've never heard of anyone getting a script for them just as routine. I'm confused. Nancy - it depends on a lot of things. As I said above though, my dr routinely prescribed 800 mg ibuprofen for new moms to help with inflamation and pain control. but that's just 4 advil instead of one big pill.
I had a c section and didn't even get narcotics after the first day. I think I'm going to the wrong docs.
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