Kids, college, the successful launch... all that jazz...

[Deleted]

It wasn't mean spirited at all. As a matter of fact, your reaction to the "But...made" comment above rather proves my original statement. For whatever reason, you don't seem able at this point to take conversation and questions and legitimate concerns as anything but an attack. I'm sorry you are feeling that way, but I've done nothing with the intention of 'browbeating' you at any point.

Although my comment on the other thread in response to 'fancy talk' comes close... I am getting a bit weary after all, and eventually if I'm accused of stink long enough, I will let out a fart...

[milee]

Rukh, both those quotes were me talking about my situation and were pulled from the middle of paragraphs of me talking about my situation, my experiences and what I will be doing.

Again, I can't help it if you're so sensitive you interpret them as an attack on you. I've been clear about what I think about my situation and what I think about yours - I've even specifically stated you seem to have it under control and wished your daughter luck.

Part of why I stopped posting in the other thread was your hypersensitivity. I see no point going back when you are so eager to take offense. It's at the point where if I posted something innocuous like "the sky is blue here today" you'd respond with something like "what, you don't think I know what a blue sky looks like or that I can't afford one? Keep that kind of elitism to yourself!"

[bean29]

Ok, and as I was reading further in this thread, my one lecture to DS's GF with DS present and I think DD was there too, was the YM knowledge that Student Loans can not be discharged in Bankruptcy and they can be deducted from your Social Security.

I probably should push good grades harder, and I am going to have to push my kids to fund more of their own expenses, b/c we just don't have the fuds to continue the way we have.  DH did not want to do a plus loan, but I think it is going to be necessary.

[milee]

Jun 23, 2014 12:47:37 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Jun 23, 2014 11:33:12 GMT -5 milee said:

But at least own your stance.

At least own the fact that you're so defensive on this issue you've misinterpreted what I've written. Several times now.  And that you're the only one here that's thrown insults like "cheap", "loser", "helicopter" at me and others. 

[milee]

Jun 23, 2014 12:54:21 GMT -5 oped said:

if I'm accused of stink long enough, I will let out a fart...

We went to see the blooming Corpse Flower this weekend and had an intense family debate about whether it smelled worse than the youngest son's um, emissions. Then after we got home, we played a family Scrabble tournament where all words played had to somehow relate to that day's outing. You can only imagine the phrases the boys played...   Boys.  Sigh. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Tuition was going up 5.6% a year when I was at Simpson. I recently took a gander at their admissions page and now tuition alone is what I paid for an entire year of classes AND R&B.

If rates keep going up like that unless I am Bill Gates there is no humanly way possible I can realistically pay 100% for my child to "follow her dreams" and "find herself" and have "experiences".

So I do have to put strings on it because like everywhere else in life there is just no way to do it all and then some. Not unless somebody wants to be burdened forever with student loans. I don't want that for my kids and I sure as hell don't want to repeat the process myself.

Hopefully DH and I will be able to provide decent insight. Unlike our parents we've both been thru the process and come out the other end. We can help her hopefully avoid mistakes we made and give her food for thought.

I "do what I love" at 18 working for peanuts in academia sounded peachy keen to me. At 30 I am not finding it so appealing anymore, especially with the price tag it came at. I don't regret any decisions I made, I made them as best I could with the information I had at the time, but if I could do it over again the list is endless.

I've realized now there was more than one way to skin a cat to get where I am today. I want to pass that hindsight onto my kids. I don't want to squash their dreams but at the same time I want them to realize that your dream at 18 might not be so awesome once you're older.   And that you don't want to get so obsessed with it that you don't realize there are other means to the same end.

[Deleted]

Jun 23, 2014 12:42:34 GMT -5 Opti said:

Jun 23, 2014 12:27:24 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

no, that's not what transportation costs are in the total cost of attendance calculation.  they are the costs associated with getting to and from the college - out-of-state students most likely have higher costs than in-state students - that's the only 2 numbers they use.

Wow.

 

So some colleges not only fund your education, they fund transportation to

it as well?

ummmm, no.  your financial aid is based on the total cost of attendance, which includes fixed items such as tuition, fees, room and board, and variable items such as books, personal expenses, etc., minus your expected family contribution.  when your EFC exceeds the total cost of attendance, all you get is an unsub stafford loan (that would be DD for the past 3 years).  part of these expenses can be covered by work-study (financial aid award) and summer earnings (I think most schools assume a minimum student contribution even if they have no savings or a job).  I have to imagine that the percentage of students who get a completely free ride to college (no out of pocket or loans) is very very minimal.

[The Captain]

Jun 23, 2014 13:01:07 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

Jun 23, 2014 12:42:34 GMT -5 Opti said:

Wow.

 

So some colleges not only fund your education, they fund transportation to

it as well?

ummmm, no.  your financial aid is based on the total cost of attendance, which includes fixed items such as tuition, fees, room and board, and variable items such as books, personal expenses, etc., minus your expected family contribution.  when your EFC exceeds the total cost of attendance, all you get is an unsub stafford loan (that would be DD for the past 3 years).  part of these expenses can be covered by work-study (financial aid award) and summer earnings (I think most schools assume a minimum student contribution even if they have no savings or a job).  I have to imagine that the percentage of students who get a completely free ride to college (no out of pocket or loans) is very very minimal.

Not necessarily true.  Another poster on these boards has been pretty open about financial aid (including SL) sometimes exceeding actual cost of attendance and some folks (not necessarily the other poster) in their area going back to school only to get those funds to live on without any real intent of getting a degree.  That is, at least, how I understood the posts.

[midjd]

In some ways, I predict Mid and maybe even Drama might have an easier go of this, because I really do think we are coming to a crux of higher education. I don't think people are going to continue to spend that kind of money on 'certain' kinds of experiences/preparation. I think we are about to see a move towards a much more skill oriented/apprenticeship and independent education (either self learning or self procured) etc. Think Abe Lincoln... study the law and then pass the bar and you are a lawyer type stuff. Learning is everywhere.

I agree with this. The price inflation can't continue, at least not if employers are going to continue to prefer/require a college degree for $25K/year jobs.

And there are a couple of states (I think California is one?) in which you can sit for the bar exam even if you haven't graduated from law school. California and New York have the hardest bar exams in the country (~50% pass rate among law school grads), so the thinking is that if you can pass, you're probably OK to practice law.

I learned more in my first 6 months here than I did in 3 years of law school, so I'd be in favor of an apprenticeship-type program for lawyers. The market is still oversaturated, but without the albatross of six figure student loans, new lawyers should have a lot more career flexibility.

[Deleted]

I think it will happen for most careers... but the bar thing was just an easy example

[Deleted]

Jun 23, 2014 13:16:23 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Jun 23, 2014 13:01:07 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

ummmm, no.  your financial aid is based on the total cost of attendance, which includes fixed items such as tuition, fees, room and board, and variable items such as books, personal expenses, etc., minus your expected family contribution.  when your EFC exceeds the total cost of attendance, all you get is an unsub stafford loan (that would be DD for the past 3 years).  part of these expenses can be covered by work-study (financial aid award) and summer earnings (I think most schools assume a minimum student contribution even if they have no savings or a job).  I have to imagine that the percentage of students who get a completely free ride to college (no out of pocket or loans) is very very minimal.

Not necessarily true.  Another poster on these boards has been pretty open about financial aid (including SL) sometimes exceeding actual cost of attendance and some folks (not necessarily the other poster) in their area going back to school only to get those funds to live on without any real intent of getting a degree.  That is, at least, how I understood the posts.

the total cost of attendance is a number used by the university.  they may use $1000 as the cost for books but student A pays $1200 and student B pays $800.  the university isn't going to calculate the actual cost for every single student.  and if your EFC is $0, you're pretty damn poor and I know I would never want to voluntarily have that low of an income just so I or my kids could get a pell grant. 

[milee]

Jun 23, 2014 13:16:03 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Jun 23, 2014 12:57:02 GMT -5 milee said:

At least own the fact that you're so defensive on this issue you've misinterpreted what I've written. Several times now.  And that you're the only one here that's thrown insults like "cheap", "loser", "helicopter" at me and others. 

I am finding this hilarious. Defensive? sorry, it is just a debating exercise at this point.

I never called anyone a loser or a helicopter. The loser was applied to your hypothetical straw man.

I've used the term micro manage.

Pray tell what I'm being defensive about?

If I correct a misconception - is that defensive?

There have been continuous of "no guidance" "free reign", etc. which I have stated not to be true - and yet -  it continues to be stated as a fact of the case. So - if that is ignored, and I repeat it to clarify - is that defensive?

I have stated repeatedly that a bachelors of any kind is just a basic component of good education. I have stated that the obtainment of this degree is not a means to an end - but an important accomplishment in it's own right.

this philosophy in and of itself - and which I have been stating as my philosophy on education for years on this board - it really the crux of it.....and yet.....it is neither acknowledged nor allowed as a legitimate stance.

So - if I repeat that - again - am I being defensive?

So - the only way I'm seeing to be non-defensive is to what? Let all this fact-free conjecture stand unchallenged? and so then - the entire conversation is about somebody's phantom-event?


go ahead - have you phantom-case....just don't misrepresent it as mine.....

  The only one misrepresenting things is you.  Repeatedly.  It must be a very sensitive subject for you to be so worked up about.

[The Captain]

Jun 23, 2014 13:28:28 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

Jun 23, 2014 13:16:23 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Not necessarily true.  Another poster on these boards has been pretty open about financial aid (including SL) sometimes exceeding actual cost of attendance and some folks (not necessarily the other poster) in their area going back to school only to get those funds to live on without any real intent of getting a degree.  That is, at least, how I understood the posts.

the total cost of attendance is a number used by the university.  they may use $1000 as the cost for books but student A pays $1200 and student B pays $800.  the university isn't going to calculate the actual cost for every single student.  and if your EFC is $0, you're pretty damn poor and I know I would never want to voluntarily have that low of an income just so I or my kids could get a pell grant. 

Just to clarify, I wasn't addressing the household income levels, merely the assertion that financial aid was based on the total cost of attendance.  In that particular thread I recall I believe the poster had access to at least 10K over the actual cost of their attendance.  In those cases it's more than a semester or two's worth of books, hmm?

What you posted was originally in response to minnesotapaintlady's question about financial aid including travel expenses.  If I'm reading this correctly, those costs are included as part of the calculation at some schools at least.

Also, I'm trying to remember who on these boards is in financial aid, but I seem to recall the calculations are at least somewhat individualized.



yale.edu/tuba/finaid/finaid-information/how-need-based-aid-works.html

[giramomma]

Jun 23, 2014 13:19:00 GMT -5 midjd said:

In some ways, I predict Mid and maybe even Drama might have an easier go of this, because I really do think we are coming to a crux of higher education. I don't think people are going to continue to spend that kind of money on 'certain' kinds of experiences/preparation. I think we are about to see a move towards a much more skill oriented/apprenticeship and independent education (either self learning or self procured) etc. Think Abe Lincoln... study the law and then pass the bar and you are a lawyer type stuff. Learning is everywhere.

I agree with this. The price inflation can't continue, at least not if employers are going to continue to prefer/require a college degree for $25K/year jobs.

And there are a couple of states (I think California is one?) in which you can sit for the bar exam even if you haven't graduated from law school. California and New York have the hardest bar exams in the country (~50% pass rate among law school grads), so the thinking is that if you can pass, you're probably OK to practice law.

I learned more in my first 6 months here than I did in 3 years of law school, so I'd be in favor of an apprenticeship-type program for lawyers. The market is still oversaturated, but without the albatross of six figure student loans, new lawyers should have a lot more career flexibility.

In some places, price inflation has stopped. We'll have had tuition freezes for 4 years. (The past two years, and upcoming two years). If the political environment is the same after elections later this year, there could see another 4 years of tuition freezes.

I also think it's interesting, that in my state, there's a law program where as long as you fulfill statutory requirements, you don't need to take the bar exam.

[Deleted]

Jun 23, 2014 13:46:36 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Jun 23, 2014 13:28:28 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

the total cost of attendance is a number used by the university.  they may use $1000 as the cost for books but student A pays $1200 and student B pays $800.  the university isn't going to calculate the actual cost for every single student.  and if your EFC is $0, you're pretty damn poor and I know I would never want to voluntarily have that low of an income just so I or my kids could get a pell grant. 

Just to clarify, I wasn't addressing the household income levels, merely the assertion that financial aid was based on the total cost of attendance.  In that particular thread I recall I believe the poster had access to at least 10K over the actual cost of their attendance.  In those cases it's more than a semester or two's worth of books, hmm?

What you posted was originally in response to minnesotapaintlady's question about financial aid including travel expenses.  If I'm reading this correctly, those costs are included as part of the calculation at some schools at least.

Also, I'm trying to remember who on these boards is in financial aid, but I seem to recall the calculations are at least somewhat individualized.



yale.edu/tuba/finaid/finaid-information/how-need-based-aid-works.html

total cost of attendance includes living expenses, so room and board if you're on campus, or rent, food and utilities if you're off campus.  $10K for a year of living expenses doesn't sound all that horrible.

[milee]

Jun 23, 2014 13:43:24 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Jun 23, 2014 13:30:05 GMT -5 milee said:

  The only one misrepresenting things is you.  Repeatedly.  It must be a very sensitive subject for you to be so worked up about.

welp - if you say it it must be true?

If I say it is not a sensitive subject, what do you think that means Dr. Freud?

Tell me more about that.

Not a Dr and have never played one on TV, but I'm thinking there's a bit too much protesting on your part. 

[NastyWoman]

Jun 23, 2014 11:16:40 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Jun 23, 2014 11:11:35 GMT -5 midjd said:

*My other thought is to have DD take out as much in loans as she can, and then repay them upon her graduation as long as she's maintained decent grades.

I've thought about that too.  We should be in subsidized loan territory, so for sure, he could take those, then I could pay them off with Roth money and have it never affect financial aid.  I have these nightmares of him going 2-3 years, then quitting.  

I have recommended that approach to my dentist (been with her for 16 or so years and we talk about all kind of things when she is not messing around in my mouth   She and her hubby have only the one child and she would very much like to pay her DDs way in full.  So I did point out that she could always pay off the SL as a graduation gift ensuring she would not end up on the hook for 6 semesters of partying and no degree.  Even "good" kids can lose their way once they are in college.  When I went for my checkup in April she told me that she and hubby were going to follow my advice, so now there is a young girl out there with reason to dislike me intensely even though we have never met

[muttleynfelix]

I honestly have no idea what we'll do.  DS is 4.5, DD is 1.5.  We don't even start Kindergarten for another year.     It is going to largely depend on our financial situation at the time. I'm not specifically saving for them because DH will be over 59.5 by the time they are in college, so his ROTH is an option to fund their college.  A lot of it will depend on if they are more like me or more like their dad.   I don't have a clear plan. I know DH would prefer not to help them, but it will depend on what they want to study, and economics of it all at the time.  

[Shooby]

As for allowing the pursuit of a "dream career". Well, that depends. There has to be SOME reality tied to the "dream" and some notion of how this dream is going to parlay into a job that pays the bills.

[The Captain]

Jun 23, 2014 14:40:06 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Jun 23, 2014 11:16:40 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I've thought about that too.  We should be in subsidized loan territory, so for sure, he could take those, then I could pay them off with Roth money and have it never affect financial aid.  I have these nightmares of him going 2-3 years, then quitting.  

I have recommended that approach to my dentist (been with her for 16 or so years and we talk about all kind of things when she is not messing around in my mouth   She and her hubby have only the one child and she would very much like to pay her DDs way in full.  So I did point out that she could always pay off the SL as a graduation gift ensuring she would not end up on the hook for 6 semesters of partying and no degree.  Even "good" kids can lose their way once they are in college.  When I went for my checkup in April she told me that she and hubby were going to follow my advice, so now there is a young girl out there with reason to dislike me intensely even though we have never met

You may be surprised.  My Junior year was really, really rough.  If I didn't have the doom and gloom of those SL's that I knew had to be paid back I may have thrown in the towel.  In some ways I'm very grateful that I did have that extra incentive to push me on.

[973beachbum]

Jun 23, 2014 13:16:23 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Jun 23, 2014 13:01:07 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

ummmm, no.  your financial aid is based on the total cost of attendance, which includes fixed items such as tuition, fees, room and board, and variable items such as books, personal expenses, etc., minus your expected family contribution.  when your EFC exceeds the total cost of attendance, all you get is an unsub stafford loan (that would be DD for the past 3 years).  part of these expenses can be covered by work-study (financial aid award) and summer earnings (I think most schools assume a minimum student contribution even if they have no savings or a job).  I have to imagine that the percentage of students who get a completely free ride to college (no out of pocket or loans) is very very minimal.

Not necessarily true.  Another poster on these boards has been pretty open about financial aid (including SL) sometimes exceeding actual cost of attendance and some folks (not necessarily the other poster) in their area going back to school only to get those funds to live on without any real intent of getting a degree.  That is, at least, how I understood the posts.

I think some of that was semantics.  The poster in question was saying the "student" had their actual school expenses covered by grants and loans.  But the amount of loans exceeded the cost of the tuition.  The Fed method does include things like living expenses, transportation and personal expenses to be added in, but it won't help pay for it with grants.  The only reason I have ever seen to have those items listed was so that the student and parents could qualify for more student loans.

IMO saying paying for something with a loan equals free makes about as much sense as saying my dinner was free because I didn't use cash to pay for it but used a credit card.