NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 25, 2014 9:46:27 GMT -5
And then you can use it for yourself
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 25, 2014 10:22:18 GMT -5
Mid stole my line. That would REALLY freak out the bystanders!
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 25, 2014 10:29:02 GMT -5
I'm not trying to fight. I 've just only seen convertible car seats in the upright face forward position. Not even sure how to go about turning ours backward. We've always had it facing front. Babybird was in a rear facing bucket seat (I'd never heard that term before so now I think I get what you're saying) until she was a little over one year and her legs flat out didn't go that way anymore. Seriously?? On my facebook page, from May 26th, there is a video of the kids in the car as we travel down the road and DD is in a rear-facing convertible seat. She outgrew her little infant or bucket seat or whatever you want to call it lengthwise by 9 months. But she still rearfaced until 3 weeks ago. DS rearfaced until 23 months. I never would have guessed you would have gone straight from an infant/bucket seat to forward facing. Especially with the way you have talked on this thread. I'm also really surprised you're giving people such a hard time about leaving their kids in the car for 5 mins while you started forward facing at 1 year. Aren't they both "safety choices"? Wow.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 25, 2014 10:50:38 GMT -5
Haven't I been saying all this time that people have different risk tolerances for different things and THAT IS OKAY? I'm pretty sure I've said that multiple times. So I'm comfortable with one thing and you're comfortable with another. That doesn't make either of us bad parents and I never said it did. We're all making the best choices we can with the kids we've got.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 25, 2014 10:54:44 GMT -5
I've also said multiple times that I don't care about judging a parent's reasoning for leaving a baby in a car for five minutes. It's not about judging for me. So I'm not sure where you guys are getting that I'm so hard on parents who make that choice. Just because I've said I would call the cops if I saw a baby unattended in a vehicle? That doesn't translate to "giving people a hard time" for me. It translates into what I thought was pretty standard protocol. I can't know if your baby has been out there for five minutes or five hours.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 25, 2014 10:57:52 GMT -5
It wasn't my decision. Shit happens.
Again, that's not the point. Why the kids are here doesn't really matter. If you've got them, you've got them. And if you have more than one and that makes it harder to do quick errands, that sucks but it doesn't mean they should be left in the car. Actually, I've never left my kids in the car alone and I rear-faced to 2 years but I don't give a crap what other people do and I don't tell them they are wrong for leaving their kids in the car, like in your post above. I'll admit in most other posts you did say something along the lines of "in my opinion" but it seems pretty clear that whatever isn't in your opinion is obviously wrong.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 25, 2014 11:04:50 GMT -5
Yeah, okay. I guess I'm a judgmental bitch for having an opinion, then. Infer whatever you want, even though most of my posts have actually said things like THIS (from page 11), strongly emphasizing that in fact I do NOT think people are necessarily bad parents just because they make choices I wouldn't make myself:
Like others have noted, we don't think you're bad parents or even necessarily making bad decisions. Just because WE wouldn't feel comfortable leaving our kids in the car for "5 minute errands" doesn't mean that you shouldn't. We probably do other stuff with our kids that YOU wouldn't be comfortable with either. That's fine.
But all we are saying is that there's a RISK of someone calling the cops if they see your baby in the car unattended, in addition to the (probably close to nonexistent if it's only 5 minutes) physical risks of leaving the baby in the car.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 25, 2014 11:07:08 GMT -5
I think I've finally figured out why the mommy wars get so fierce- apparently if you express any kind of opinion on what you would or wouldn't do with your OWN child, that means you think any parent who makes a different choice is a bad parent. I get it now!
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jun 25, 2014 11:13:35 GMT -5
When your first assumption about a post I made is that what I am talking about is illegal, you are reaching. Your moral high horse is so far up there right now, that your first assumption is that i am talking about something illegal. You run through the point about how it is illegal and then you say "unless you are rear-facing" when I thought it was pretty damn clear I was talking about rear-facing. You have come across on this thread as very high up on that horse. So while you have said "in my opinion", it comes across that your opinion is a morally superior one. Especially when your assumption is that I am talking about something illegal when it comes to rear-facing.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 25, 2014 11:13:39 GMT -5
Yeah, okay. I guess I'm a judgmental bitch for having an opinion, then. Infer whatever you want, even though most of my posts have actually said things like THIS, strongly emphasizing that in fact I do NOT think people are necessarily bad parents just because they make choices I wouldn't make myself: Like others have noted, we don't think you're bad parents or even necessarily making bad decisions. Just because WE wouldn't feel comfortable leaving our kids in the car for "5 minute errands" doesn't mean that you shouldn't. We probably do other stuff with our kids that YOU wouldn't be comfortable with either. That's fine. But all we are saying is that there's a RISK of someone calling the cops if they see your baby in the car unattended, in addition to the (probably close to nonexistent if it's only 5 minutes) physical risks of leaving the baby in the car. Ok, maybe this isn't directed at me but at the whole thread in general but just to clarify ... I've never left my kids alone in the car, so I don't care. I'm not even a real participant on this thread. Just trying to point out some inconsistencies.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 25, 2014 11:21:11 GMT -5
When your first assumption about a post I made is that what I am talking about is illegal, you are reaching. Your moral high horse is so far up there right now, that your first assumption is that i am talking about something illegal. You run through the point about how it is illegal and then you say "unless you are rear-facing" when I thought it was pretty damn clear I was talking about rear-facing.
Okay, first of all, my post on the carseat thing (which was clearly foot-in-mouth - see below) had absolutely nothing to do with my posts on the leaving a kid in the car thing. They're totally separate issues.
Second, I acknowledge that my carseat post came across as rude/judgmental and I apologize for that. I truly wasn't trying to insult you. It was late (for me) and I was tired and I thought you were saying that some people put their kids in forward facing carseats from the start (but I wasn't totally sure, hence the "unless you're talking about..." part). I didn't think you were talking about something YOU were doing anyway, because you said "While it isn't the best option or highly recommended, it isn't that unusual for someone to just use a convertible from the beginning."
However, I apologize for the judgy tone of that post.
Third, I disagree that I've been on my moral high horse this whole thread. I've been saying pretty damn consistently that parents make the best choices they can for the most part and just because we might make different ones that doesn't make theirs WRONG. I think you're still pissed because I said I would call the cops if I saw a baby in the car unattended. I stand by that one, and I do not think I'm a judgmental nosy busybody for that decision. I ALSO do not think you are morally wrong for making a different decision.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jun 25, 2014 11:27:47 GMT -5
I'm not pissed about it. I think the fact that I said some common sense could be applied to some situations and I was told that "it wasn't your job as an observer to assess the situation" . So, to me that comes across that common sense isn't allowed in the world any more. I don't care if you don't want to stick around or whatever, but to say bye-bye to common sense, that is what I cannot fathom. I'm not pissed so much as I am flabbergasted.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 25, 2014 11:35:18 GMT -5
I can't make sense of how you get that from "I would automatically call the cops if I saw a baby in the car alone."
Older kids, yes, it makes sense to assess the situation. For example, I wouldn't have called the cops in the situation I linked to in the OP. But babies, I'm just going to call the cops. How is that saying bye-bye to common sense?
Now *I'm* flabbergasted.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jun 25, 2014 11:42:40 GMT -5
" At the end of the day we all want the same thing: for our kids to be healthy, safe and happy. " Totally agree. And i know every one who is saying they are ok with leaving their kids for 5 minutes is doing so only after careful consideration. My only thing is if i am the stranger that sees their kid, i would call the cops because i know nothing about the situation. Better safe than sorry.
As for running errands, my place, my work and daycare are all within 1 mile of each other. I picked the house based on work location and the daycare just happened to be close enough. It is easy for me to do some stuff at lunch and go home. I knew i was a single mom with no help so i made sure i had that option. But some of you may not have that option. My issue with this is that you can see some of the circumstances. You can see the weather if it is an issue. You can tell if you are at a big box store or a gas station. You (in general) could apply some common sense to the situation too. Response by a poster to my comment: Those are the series of posts that led to my last post. I do think immediately calling if you see a baby alone in the car at a gas station isn't common sense. I think if you saw the baby and immediately dialed 911 instead of doing what you are there for and seeing if someone was around. Most people are in and out of a gas station. Why would you call first thing instead of last thing?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 25, 2014 11:53:54 GMT -5
Now I think you're deliberately picking apart what I'm saying. When I say I would "automatically" call the cops, I mean that I wouldn't do things like stick my head in the gas station and yell "HEY DID SOMEONE LEAVE A BABY IN THE CAR?" In other words, I wouldn't make any special effort to FIND the parent before calling. That doesn't mean I'd be frantically grabbing my cell phone and calling before so much as glancing around.
If I were pumping gas, I probably would finish up before walking up to the car and calling. That gives the parent at least a minute or two. If someone came out of the store before I finished, awesome. No need to call. And if I start calling and someone comes out, awesome. I would explain to the dispatcher that I thought I saw an unattended baby but the parent is with them now and everything is fine.
Also, "that poster" you quoted wasn't me. I've said more than once that your standards of calling the cops (if weather is an issue, the kid is outside an office, etc.) seem perfectly reasonable to me. If you have time to stick around and assess the situation and you want to do that, cool. I agree that it's not your "job" to do so before calling the cops, though.
Calling "automatically" when the kid in question is an infant without assessing anything is a totally valid choice IMO. Waiting around to assess the situation if the baby doesn't seem to be in distress - also a totally valid choice.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 25, 2014 12:02:13 GMT -5
Yeah, okay. I guess I'm a judgmental bitch for having an opinion, then. Infer whatever you want, even though most of my posts have actually said things like THIS (from page 11), strongly emphasizing that in fact I do NOT think people are necessarily bad parents just because they make choices I wouldn't make myself: Like others have noted, we don't think you're bad parents or even necessarily making bad decisions. Just because WE wouldn't feel comfortable leaving our kids in the car for "5 minute errands" doesn't mean that you shouldn't. We probably do other stuff with our kids that YOU wouldn't be comfortable with either. That's fine.
But all we are saying is that there's a RISK of someone calling the cops if they see your baby in the car unattended, in addition to the (probably close to nonexistent if it's only 5 minutes) physical risks of leaving the baby in the car. No you aren't. You have a right to your opinion, and if it's a bit judgmental, so what? People are dead-ass wrong to leave their kids alone in the car...period. And if I see it, I'm calling the police. I don't give a flying f*ck who thinks I'm "nosy" or whatever. It's been my experience that when people resort to name-calling and the like - it's because they know they are dead-ass wrong and they are trying to shift the blame. I wouldn't be calling them to get the parent in trouble. I wouldn't even know if there was a law against it or not if someone hadn't posted the states that do have some kind of law against it. I'd be doing it to make sure the child was safe. If someone sees that as being "nosy" or "judgmental"....tough shit. No. It doesn't make any difference if you don't have any kids, one kid or 9 kids. I don't even leave my DOG in the car unattended, so I can positively state I wouldn't leave my kid in the car. Not even at 2:00 am at the gas station when I have to pee and I'm on crutches with one broken wrist and I can't see out of one eye and I can't risk waking the baby because I want them to sleep till they are 5 and the bathroom may be unclean and my toe hurts and I'm tired, and there was no way on God's green Earth I could have picked up milk earlier, yada yada yada. All those excuses boil down to "it's all about me". There are only 19 states that do not have some sort of law against leaving your kid in the car. Obviously, people find that there is something wrong with it. I'm betting the others follow suit before long. Besides that, just because something is legal doesn't mean you have to do it. It's legal to smoke pot in Colorado but that doesn't mean I'm required to do it if I visit there. It's absolutely ridiculous to argue with statistics. So friggin what if only 1 kid in 3,000,000 gets kidnapped. If that was your (the general "your") kid, I highly doubt you'd shrug your shoulders, say "Oh well. Statistically, that shouldn't have happened." and go on with your day. That's a dumb argument. Leave your kid. Don't leave your kid. It's your choice. If you choose to do so, I'm going to think you made a really bad decision. Does that equate to "crappy parent"? No. It means what it says. And you get to think I'm a nosy, judgmental bitch for calling you on it. As long as that child is safe, I couldn't care less what somebody thinks of me.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jun 25, 2014 12:07:12 GMT -5
I'm not deliberately picking apart what you are saying. I'm telling you how it has come across to me what you say you would do. Because to me, yeah it has sounded like you would immediately pick up the phone and call. I understand that it wasn't. But there were a number of posts agreeing to it following. Other than you liking it, i don't remember what you posted following it. I didn't quote the poster or tag her because I think we have beaten this horse to death and I didn't feel we really needed to go back over that ground. We don't agree, obviously. We already have 17 pages of not agreeing. Do we really need to fire it back up?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 25, 2014 12:07:35 GMT -5
I'm wondering how many of our parents would have 911 called on them these days.
Getting left in the car was the norm when I was a child. Mom needed to go to the commissary and she couldn't leave us 3 home alone. We were also not allowed into the commissary unless we were either riding in the cart or were 12. So mom would take younger brother into the store until he was too big to fit, then a 4, 6 and 8 year old would get left in the car for 45 min or so while she shopped. We read books or colored until she returned.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 25, 2014 12:08:21 GMT -5
I have thought about this a lot, both before and after having DD.
I think a lot of people want to prove - to themselves - that they are doing better than the average parent, as if this is a guarantee that their kid will turn out better than the average kid. And we assume that everyone else (who isn't an obviously terrible parent) feels the same way.
So rather than thinking "different strokes," if you hear a parent say that they would never do something that you yourself do - and presume that this person loves their child as much as you love your child - it is easy to assume that whatever they are saying they would not do is "bad." Because if it was good, why wouldn't they do it?
But - there is a lot of gray area between good and bad, and I think most parenting decisions fall somewhere in the middle.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 25, 2014 12:10:22 GMT -5
We don't agree, obviously. We already have 17 pages of not agreeing. Do we really need to fire it back up?
I don't think so. I respect your opinions and I still like you even though we disagree on a lot.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jun 25, 2014 12:11:30 GMT -5
But as a bystander it's not my job to assess the situation and try to determine the circumstances that lead to the kid being left in the car. The way I see it as a human being it is my duty to ensure that small children that can not speak up for themselves are protected.
This was my quote- I said this several days ago. Yup- I stand by that. I come across a baby in a car, unattended with no parent anywhere around I'm going to wait a couple of minutes and if no one comes back to the car I'm calling the cops. Yup that's what's happening. I'm going to use some common sense first. If it's in the middle of the freaking Walmart parking lot that's completely different from being parked next to the door at the gas station. If your necessary errand really is a minute or two than you would be back at your car before I even pulled my phone out of my purse so no harm no foul. My goal would not be to get a parent in trouble but to protect an innocent child.
I would like to encourage us all to end this debate now. We aren't going to agree and if things continue as they are people are gong to start getting offended (or more offended). All of the people posting here have a cordial relationship and have been posting back and forth for years. Some of us are even fb friends. I am going to gracefully back out of this debate now. Judging by how you all talk about your kids it's obvious that you love them. We just differ on this one item and I am going to just agree to disagree and move on.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 25, 2014 12:12:03 GMT -5
Yes, it does. Maybe not one kid vs. nine kids, but there is no way you can speak authoritatively on what you would do in a specific situation involving your own kids if you don't have kids. Sorry. No, owning a dog or cat is not the same as having a child.
I am speaking from experience here. As I've mentioned around page 10, there is a huge laundry list of things I swore I'd never do when I had kids. I have done almost all of them, and DD isn't even crawling yet.
I have owned pets all my life. Having a kid is not remotely comparable.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jun 25, 2014 12:14:49 GMT -5
-rofl-So how are getting the baby from the car to the bathroom in that situation?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 25, 2014 12:15:50 GMT -5
Yes, it does. Maybe not one kid vs. nine kids, but there is no way you can speak authoritatively on what you would do in a specific situation involving your own kids if you don't have kids. Sorry. No, owning a dog or cat is not the same as having a child. I am speaking from experience here. As I've mentioned around page 10, there is a huge laundry list of things I swore I'd never do when I had kids. I have done almost all of them. I have owned pets all my life. Having a kid is not remotely comparable. Sorry. You are wrong. Do you think I'd leave my kid in the car when I don't leave my dog in the car? That doesn't even make sense. It doesn't make any difference. You'd have to be in a bubble not to have had kids with you, been around kids, etc. I wouldn't leave my kid in the car. Not for any reason whatsoever. Believe it or don't. Up to you. Can you be a good attorney if you've never been a criminal? Can you be a good doctor if you haven't had cancer. You don't have to HAVE something to know something. That argument is baseless...at least in this particular situation. I agree with you that there are times when one should never say "never". This isn't one of them.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jun 25, 2014 12:19:11 GMT -5
But as a bystander it's not my job to assess the situation and try to determine the circumstances that lead to the kid being left in the car. The way I see it as a human being it is my duty to ensure that small children that can not speak up for themselves are protected.
This was my quote- I said this several days ago. Yup- I stand by that. I come across a baby in a car, unattended with no parent anywhere around I'm going to wait a couple of minutes and if no one comes back to the car I'm calling the cops. Yup that's what's happening. I'm going to use some common sense first. If it's in the middle of the freaking Walmart parking lot that's completely different from being parked next to the door at the gas station. If your necessary errand really is a minute or two than you would be back at your car before I even pulled my phone out of my purse so no harm no foul. My goal would not be to get a parent in trouble but to protect an innocent child.
I would like to encourage us all to end this debate now. We aren't going to agree and if things continue as they are people are gong to start getting offended (or more offended). All of the people posting here have a cordial relationship and have been posting back and forth for years. Some of us are even fb friends. I am going to gracefully back out of this debate now. Judging by how you all talk about your kids it's obvious that you love them. We just differ on this one item and I am going to just agree to disagree and move on. Ok that is not what was talked about earlier. Everyone said, I'm calling the cops right now. No waiting a couple minutes. Suddenly it is yeah, I would wait a couple minutes.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Jun 25, 2014 12:21:21 GMT -5
In other news, looks like the poor baby in GA was intentionally left in the car. Dad even went back to the car in the middle of the day and didn't do anything to help him I don't understand how someone could do that to their kid!!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jun 25, 2014 12:22:06 GMT -5
So rather than thinking "different strokes," if you hear a parent say that they would never do something that you yourself do - and presume that this person loves their child as much as you love your child - it is easy to assume that whatever they are saying they would not do is "bad." Because if it was good, why wouldn't they do it?
I think you've probably nailed it.
The stance I've come to in my own mind is that most parents make the best decisions they can at any given time - even if I don't agree with them, and even if I think they are flat out wrong, that doesn't make them bad parents. Even making what I consider to be a "bad" parenting decision doesn't make someone a bad parent, in my book.
Random example (and please, this is just an illustration and I WILL NOT debate the merits of this choice): I think spanking is wrong. It's a choice I don't agree with at all, full stop. HOWEVER, there are parents I respect, people I think are great parents, who choose to spank. That doesn't make me think spanking is a good choice, that makes me think they are good parents making (what I believe to be) a bad choice.
So I believe it's completely possible to be a great parent who makes a parenting choice with which I completely disagree. The parents I know who spank their kids have carefully considered their choice to do so, just as I have carefully considered my choice not to do so. Maybe *I'm* wrong and they're right. Who knows? I can only go with what I believe is right for my own child. That's all they're doing.
And I don't think their kids are going to be all f'd up over their choice. If they're good parents, then their kids are probably going to be fine despite their making what is (in my opinion) the "wrong" choice.
It took me awhile to get to that point, though. And now that I'm there, it's the position I try to take on every parenting choice I disagree with (unless they obviously endanger the child). I tell myself that I believe overall good parenting can survive a bad choice or two - and I sure as hell hope that's true, because IMO no parent alive has ever been able to avoid making bad choices now and then. I'll be no exception.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 25, 2014 12:22:51 GMT -5
I'm assuming your dog is able to walk under his own power?
Being around kids is not the same as being solely responsible for another life.
How do you unequivocally know what you would do in a particular situation if you've never been in that situation? Your analogies don't apply. A doctor can treat cancer without having had it, but a doctor may not know what she would do if SHE had cancer until/unless she was diagnosed. An attorney may not know what he would do if he was charged with a crime until it actually happened.
There was a similar discussion in the gun threads. One can think that if they hear an intruder, their first instinct will be to calmly aim and fire, but until they are in that situation, they don't know. Quite a few would probably freeze or panic instead.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 25, 2014 12:26:50 GMT -5
Glad I raised my kids before the cult of the child took over if I'm okay w you being a helicopter parent, why can't you accept others that don't follow that mantra
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jun 25, 2014 12:28:44 GMT -5
I'm wondering how many of our parents would have 911 called on them these days. Getting left in the car was the norm when I was a child. Mom needed to go to the commissary and she couldn't leave us 3 home alone. We were also not allowed into the commissary unless we were either riding in the cart or were 12. So mom would take younger brother into the store until he was too big to fit, then a 4, 6 and 8 year old would get left in the car for 45 min or so while she shopped. We read books or colored until she returned. My mom used to shop for hours, and I'd be bored out of my mind. So after a while, I'd ask for the keys and sit in the car and read instead. I was probably 8 or 9. You see, I had this thing called a brain that allowed me to get out or open the window if I got too hot. Obviously, I was old enough to be able to do that on my own. After I read for a while, I might go back in to look for my mom. At 10, I'd ride around town on my bike and go to stores or the movies theater on my own or with friends. This was the early 80's.
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